DCS versus TMCC

[spankybird]

I also was not overwhelmed with using the variable cannels on the TIU. I use the two fix voltage cannels. When I run my conventional engines, I do it the old school way, I adjust the handles of the transformer. DCS does not have to run at 18 volts. If you have both types of engines on the same track, the DCS engine can only run as fast as the voltage will allow. I have not seen this as a problem.

[nblum]

Neil is who I am, Jim. Not Neil Besougloff, he has more hair and editing experience. :) Neil Young has more musical talent AND more hair and more Lionel ownership :). I'm a medical researcher/doctor (blood transfusion/hematology).

If you need help with your setup, I'm sure there are enough DCS savvy folks to help out.

One point I might mention is that MTH transformers such as the Z750 or Z1000 already have a male connector that mates with the TIU auxiliary power input, which makes their use especially convenient for this purpose. One receives a transformer like this in each MTH set or one can be picked up relatively inexpensively on eBay or at some hobby shops.

[Jim Duda]

nblum - are you Neil? Man that was a great response! You are 100% correct in understanding my present setup. Keeping the Powermaster and running in passive mode seems the clear winner at this point. Sorry for belaboring my concerns, everyone.

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

I have two remotes with mine and don't have a problem with either. Just don't trun the tumble wheel too fast. [tup]

[nblum]

Since he already has control of TMCC and conventional locomotives on his layout I suggested the use of the TIU in passive mode. To those not familiar with this setup, it means not running any track voltage through the TIU and powering the TIU through the auxiliary power input using a cheap MTH transformer or the Radio Shack equivalent.

This has several advantages for the existing setup as described.

One, he continues to operate his TMCC locos and conventional locos without any change to the existing wiring, which he seemed interested in doing.

Two, the Powermaster has superior low speed control of most conventional locos to the variable outputs of the TIU which don't go below 5 volts, which is simply too high a minimum for some can motored locos.

Three, he won't have to worry about frying the TIU or changing the internal fuses of the TIU in this setup as no track voltage goes through it.

Later, if he finds he prefers the DCS handheld, he can then purchase the TIU to command base cable. He can then operate all his locos this way after disconnecting the LW from the Powermaster, then hooking the LW up through an external fuse to a TIU input.

Personally, I think the TIU offers poorest control of conventional locos of the options, so I would preserve the Powermaster setup for conventional until he's clear he prefers the DCS handheld. He can then make direct comparisons as to how he prefers to operate.

[Jim Duda]

Perhaps the title of this thread should read, "How to marry DCS with TMCC...(wink). Anyway, it sure sounds like I can remove the Powermaster and its connecting cable to the LW and simply replace it with the TIU with the MTH interface cable to the TMCC command base...am I missing anything?

Thanks again for the guidance.

Jim Duda

[Anonymous]

Gomez,

The thumb wheel breaks in with a little time. This is not really an issue. The DCS Handheld is very easy to use. I can hand it to someone at a demo and they can run trains immediatley.

Both the DCS and TMCC systems are great and work very well together!

Hello to Marty and Kodi!

[MartyE]

I don't know if there was a fix for the remote, but I've been using it regularly for the last 3 month and have actually few problems with the "wheel". I've heard this before as well but so far I have been OK with it.

[Anonymous]

There is one thing that has not been addressed yet and that is the remote control for each. I have had tmcc for several years now and the remote is easy to use and understand, heck my 5 year old can use it with no problems. When dcs came out the local train store had one wired up on their layout. I tried it and had some real trouble with that spinning knob in the middle. You have to spin the knob without putting any pressure on it otherwise it did not work right. I wasn't the only one who was having trouble in the store either. Maybe someone can address this since I have not looked at it recently, did mth fix this problem?

Personnally I have no reason to buy dcs since I don't buy mth items and do not plan to in the future. The engines I do buy are all from companies that license tmcc or from lionel itself so in my little piece of the world tmcc is for me.

[Anonymous]

Jim,

I just re-read Neil's post on wiring so I thought I would add to it.

In some cases, you may have to re-wire for DCS due to signal strength/reflection issues. In others you won't. I did not have to re-wire the Super O layout that my father built for me in 1960. It worked great with DCS. Likewise with two other floor layouts. When I built a large display layout (25' square), I did have to re-wire it. If your largest loop of track is less than 70 feet in circumference, you probably will not have to re-wire it.

At the moment the conventional wisdom is to try it first and see how the signal strength is. If it is allright, you do not have to re-wire. There is a built in functin in DCS, that allows you to run a locomotive around the layout and watch the display on the Handheld which will show you the signal strength as the locomotive progresses around the layout.

Also, I thought more about your Powermaster and the TIU. The Powermaster modifies the wave form to vary the voltage going to the track (actually, the TIU does this too). The LW sends out a pure sine wave regardless of the throttle setting. Aside from the fact that there is no logical reason to run a powermaster through a TIU, I would advise against running the Powermaster's modified sign wave into the input side of the TIU (there have been reports of "buzzing").

Please let me know if any of this helps.

Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Jim,

The only component that you really no longer need is the Powermaster. There are the equivalent of two powermasters built into every TIU (for that matter, the ARC Recorder function and surge suppression is built in as well). Just connect the LW directly to the TIU and you will be fine (you will want to connect a 15 amp quick blow fuse in the "hot" lead coming from the LW to the TIU-there are replaceable fuses inside the TIU, but external ones are easier to replace). The circuit breakers in the older post-war transformers are not considered fast enough for the modern electronics.

If you are going to run conventional using on of the two variable channels of the TIU (again, these are the equivalent of Powermasters), then you have a choice of running a separate transformer for the variable channel or running jumpers from the Fixed 1 input to the input of the Variable Channel of your choice. If you run separate tranformers, make sure they are in phase.

If this sounds remotely complicated, it is due to my wording. It is very simple to connect.
Aside from you transformers, you will only need the TIU, the Command Base and the remote to run TMCC, PS-2, and conventional trains from DCS. You can run you TMCC locomotives from either the DCS Handheld or the Cab 1. When the time comes for switches and accessories, an AIU will handle 10 switches and 10 accessories. You will need a lot fewer components to control your railroad with DCS.

[Jim Duda]

nblum and Tom - THANK YOU! Since I'm already wired up with TMCC (Command base + Powermaster + Cab-1) and working perfectly, if I'm lucky I should just be able to connect the TIU fixed outputs to the same connections as coming from the Lionel Powermaster and keep all the TMCC stuff connected, right? I already have powered each insulated block with the 16 ga. OGR twin leads so I'm hoping I won't have to touch the track wiring. Can I power the TIU concurrently with my LW that I'm using now for the Powermaster? Boy, that would be ideal!

[spankybird]

Hi Jim,

It sounds like your all set. The place that I buy a lot of my MTH is Glenn Trains, 587 Grant Street, Akron, Ohio, 44311, phone [phone]. His is one of the Mega stores for MTH and normally gives a 15% discount.

I would strongly suggest also getting the video from OGR on DCS. It is 2 hours long with a lot of very good info on DCS and even covers adding TMCC to it. A good investment for around $20.00. Glenn Trains may even have it.

tom

[nblum]

If you want to run TMCC you definitely want the cab-1 and the command base. If anyone tells you that you won't need the cab-1, and just buy the command base (for about $50), they haven't worked with the systems enough :).

While you can operate TMCC using the DCS handheld, TIU and command base combination, trouble shooting any problems (and there will be problems eventually), forming TMCC lashups or reprogramming TMCC locos requires the Cab-1.

In any case, the combination of the command base and cab-1 goes for $130 MSRP and can be found for less than $100 at most discount mail order places and some hobby shops.

In general, it's a lot easier to add TMCC to a DCS or conventionally controlled layout than vice versa, so if you're planning to operate PS2 locos in command mode, or already own a bunch of these, wire your layout for DCS and then add TMCC to it. If you're just starting out, and are looking for the simplest, easiest to implement system, start with TMCC but follow the DCS wiring guidelines (paired wires to each block of track of at least 16 gauge, insulate the middle rail of each block from the next block, be prepared to add small light bulbs across each block connection, etc.).

To add DCS to a TMCC layout is a trickier but doable proposition. The wiring needs may be very different. A simple, small two loop layout may just require adding the DCS signal to each loop. The simplest way to do this is to power the TIU by its auxiliary input (any Z500 to Z1000 transformer will work if you have one or buy the appropriate Radio Shack power supply). Then connect the fixed outputs of the TIU to each loop of the track. This is so-called passive mode and doesn't pass the DCS signal onto the track with the power. It just applies the signal. This has a number of advantages and one disadvantage. The emergency stop function of DCS is disabled. Everything else should work OK although you may need to add the lightbulbs (any voltage will do) across the outputs of the TIU or rewire somewhat.

[Jim Duda]

OK gentlemen, I'm just about ready to add DCS but let me verify this one more time please...I have the TMCC command base connected to a 135 watt Powermaster, controlled by the CAB-1. This gives me control over post-war, PS-1, PS-2 in conventional, and total control over a TMCC loco. I only run one train at a time.

So here's the big question: Do I leave everything as is and simply connect the MTH TIU? via the MTH interface cable to the Lionel Command base and that's it? It seems to me that I would have TOTAL flexibility, even though I might have to use one or the other handheld in very rare cases. And it sounds like I can get all the MTH stuff I need (discounted) for under $300.

Since I only have 25 feet of trackage and 2 track feeds at the opposite ends of a 4'X8' table, I presume I won't have to rewire anything to satisfy DCS requirements.

Thanks for helping me with this. I'm just wondering if adding DCS to TMCC is as easy as adding TMCC to DCS.

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

Hi Dmestan,

I guess it depends on what you already have or are planning to buy. DCS and also run TMCC but you need to buy DCS and then also buy TMCC command base. This will allow you to use the DCS remote to control all trains from the hand held controller. I believe there are some functions that the DCS remote does not do and you may still need the CAB1 control for some programming needs. I do not have any TMCC.

If you are planning on running conventional and command controlled engines at the same time on the same track, all that DCS requires is the TIU and Remote. If you also want to run TMCC with this, then you need to add the TMCC command base.

DCS TIU with Remote I believe at MSP is around $299.00, it can be bought for around $250.00. I believe the command base is another $100.00.

I did add a Radio Shack power supply to TIU for $18.00 (1 amp).

OGR makes a great tape or DVD for $20.00 on DCS. Its worth getting.

So if you have MTH PS2 engines, DCS is the only way to run them in command mode.

If you have TMCC you can use either

[dmestan]

OK, so for a beginner what do you suggest to get started with DCS/TMCC? What components are needed to get started (using both together) and what is the approximate cost?

Don

[macdannyk1]

Exactly. It isn't a versus thing. It's a complimentary thing.

[Anonymous]

This is not, nor should it ever be considered a DCS vs. TMCC issue. It is not an either or.

As others have pointed out, the two systems work very well together. TMCC is effectively, a very inexpensive add on to DCS (i.e. a Lionel Command Base and Cab 1 set up can usually be purchased for $100.00 or less, sometimes a lot less). Add the Command Base, a $20.00 adapter cable, and you can run both TMCC and PS-2 through the DCS Handheld, or, you can still run your TMCC locomotives via the Cab 1. We do demos for MTH and this is all very easy to do (MTH actually likes to see us run TMCC via DCS at Demos). You can also run conventional through the built in variable channels. The only thing you cannot yet do from the DCS Handheld is to run lashups, and do some of the TMCC programming (I belive that some of the new TMCC Crane Car requires input from the CAB 1 as well).
There was a very interesting article in CTT about running both systems together-It was very interesting but the manner in which it was done was grossly overcomplicated. It is a very, very simple thing to do.

If you run both systems together, you can run anything.

[spankybird]

Hi Jim,
I was looking for a CSX engine, so I started at www.mth-railking.com. I went to the product locator and did a search on just that. A CSX , Diesel, Railking. It gave me several engines to choose from. Once I pick one, it listed the different dealers that have them with their web sites if they have one, e-mail, phone number. Northeast Trains had it.

I just ordered it today, it should ship soon and when I receive and charge the battery, I will try it and let you know. This engine was in the 2002 toyfair catalog.

List price on Rugged Rail steam engines is $200.00. Glenn Trains, Arkon, ohio normally sells MTH at 15% off list. The Rugged Rail is like old Lionel 027 in some ways. BUT hay, command control engine for $200.00.
tom

[nblum]

If you only operate conventional, you need neither, althought the remote control is possible with either equipment in conventional mode. You don't need the DCS system though, as you'll get better slowspeed control in conventional mode of PS1 and PS2 locos with a Z4000 and Remote Commander than you will with the TIU/DCS handheld.

If you want to operate PS2 locos in command mode, you need to spring for the $300 MSRP of the DCS system which includes a handheld and the TIU.

If you want to operate TMCC locos in command mode, you're going to need to spring for the $130 MSRP TMCC combination of the cab-1 handheld and the command base.

The DCS handheld and TIU can operate most important TMCC functions if you purchase a $20 cable, but you'll still need the command base and you'll need the cab-1 to do full resets and lashups of TMCC locos.

So the two systems are largely independent and have similar functions, achieved rather differently from a technical standpoint. They function side by side quite easily. If you want one or the other, decide if you're going to be buying mainly MTH PS2 locos (then get DCS) or primarily Lionel, Atlas, K-Line and Weaver (then start with TMCC). In either case, to operate the other system, you need the other company's command control equipment.

[MartyE]

Jim

If you have PS2 engines and enjoy command control then DCS only enhances the PS2 experience. I have 2 PS2 engines so far and am getting the most out of them. I also have the DCS controlling my TMCC and it has worked very well.

[Jim Duda]

Where on earth did you get it for under $200??? Does it smoke as well as the other MTH stuff does? That's just another reason for making me think about adding DCS to my layout.

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

HI Jim,

My layout is a little larger than yours. If I ever add DCS to my circus layout, it most probably have two or maybe three set of wires.

The other side of this is the cost of engines with command control. MTH Railking can range from $200.00 to $400.00 for most engines. Yes there are some over this price range, and some on sale under this price range.

I just bought this today.




Check out the product features:

• Metal Wheels, Axles and Gears
• Die-Cast Truck Sides, Pilots and Fuel Tank
• (2) Remotely Controlled Proto-Couplersr
• Colorful Paint Scheme
• Metal Chassis
• Metal Handrails and Decorative Horn
• (2) Precision Flywheel Equipped Motors
• Locomotive Speed Control
• Lighted Cab Interior
• (2) Engineer Cab Figures
• Intricately Detailed ABS Body
• Overhead Blinking Light
• Operating Smoke Unit
• Directionally Controlled Headlight
• Proto-Sound 2.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring: Freight Yard Proto-Effects
• Unit Measures:15 1/4 x 2 1/2 x 4 1/16
• Operates On O-31 Curves

MSP $299.00 and I paid $198.00. Who else makes a command controlled engine for this price.
[#offtopic]
HI Marty,
By the way, Spanky is 9 years old and I have had him since he was 10 weeks old.

[Jim Duda]

OK...I'll think about it...heck, I don't think I have 25' total and only 4 switches...(wink)
I think it would take 100 tables like mine and it would still be smaller than Elliot's! My trackage is only 3.5' X 8'.

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=3c0c66c6-324b-1475-6405-117166f5160d&size=

[MartyE]

Spanky...

Little off topic but beautiful bird. My sister had parrots and such before she past away and were essentially her kids. Now her fiance' takes care of them. At Christmas time they are included in the Kids Grab Bag.

As far as DCS setup, my friend has a pretty big DCS layout and the recommended drops seem to work for him. Although mine is not all that big, I have 3 drops on my biggest loop, 12x6, and it is more than sufficient.

[spankybird]

Hi Jim,
No no no, thats not what I mean. I have noticed voltage drops after a switch. If you click on the web Icon below you can see my layout with a track plan. I think I have 4 leads on the outside loop and 3 on the inside loop. MTH recommends a lead every 25 feet of track.

I do have track single of 10 with one area of 9. Tack single is 1 to 10 with 10 being the best.

Hope this helps.

[Jim Duda]

Spank - are you saying that if an existing layout has 10 switches you would run an additional 10 "hot" connections, one before and after each switch? That's what concerns me - the amount of rewiring that would be required to upgrade to DCS. I'm thinking that if I had it to do over again, I would have started with DCS, and if I didn't like it, changing to TMCC would only require the command base with one additional wire. Am I misinterpreting something?

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

Hi all,

Well I have DCS and love it. Back in ’97 when I returned to my trains, I was told TMCC had to run at 18 volts, and no way to run both conventional and command at the same time on the same track. That was then. The only way to have Lionel sound was to have TMCC. I hope I wasn’t miss lead back then.

I had a fair amount of post-war and modern Lionel. TMCC did not look like the way to go at that time. MTH PS1 by OSI gave me the sounds that I was looking for at about $400.00 per engine for steam, $230 for Diesel. As I recall, much less than TMCC engines. Remember I’m an 027 man, big engines don’t fit on my layout.

MTH PS2 with DCS came along with the promise of being able to run both conventional command on the same track at the same time. AND IT DOES. And by the way, you don’t have to run at 18 volts.

There are many more controls in DCS, like setting the chugging rate of steam, 4 chuges per revolution of wheels. Smoke rate at low, med. or high., labor smoke. Setting volume for each sound, bell, horn, brakes, engine, etc.

To wire this in is just like connecting the transformer to the track. Just connect the transformer to the TIU (two wires) and then the TIU to the track. I did add a current breaker box to protect the TIU.



The DCS unit cost me around $225.00. My set was already wired with a star pattern. I found it best to have a feeder wire between turnouts.

[Jim Duda]

I won't try to hide anything and give you this newbie's viewpoint. I had my table all wired and got my first MTH Proto1 engine. The sounds were fantastic and I could program it, fire the electrocouplers, activate the passenger station sounds, control the volume of the diesel roar, all from my trusty old LW without ANY rewiring...just set it on the track and go. Later, I got my first TMCC engine. I could blow the whistle, ring the bell, and listen to the neat chuff sounds by just setting it on the track. Man, life is good!

Then I got my first MTH PS-2 loco and was reading about all the neat things you could do with the handheld unit that I couldn't do with just my old txfrmr. I also remember reading the TMCC instructions that you could do a lot more with the CAB-1 than I could running in conventional which is what I was doing. Everyone kept telling me I just had to connect ONE WIRE and I could run the TMCC engine with the Cab-1 AND still run all other stuff (in conventional). So I spent the $95 and got the "TMCC starter set". You get the base unit and the handheld CAB-1 controller.

To hook it up, you plug the wall wart in your power strip and the connector on it to the base unit. You connect one wire from the "U" terminal post on the base unit to your common rail - that's it! Now I could boost my smoke, turn my smoke on/off, adjust the sound of the chuff, whistle and bell, turn sounds completely off if I want, turn the headligtht,backup lights on/off, fire the tender coupler, activate crew talk, etc. , all from the handheld unit. And the steamer is from K-Line! It , like other manufacturers uses the TMCC / Railsounds control system. And all of my postwar stuff , the two MTH locos, still runs in conventional as if the TMCC base unit wasn't there.

That's the TMCC side of it. To be fair, I'd really like to hear what is involved in adding DCS to a layout that's already wired and functions perfectly, including TOTAL cost. I would LOVE to add DCS to my little table, because my PS-2 unit will come to life just like my K-Line did with TMCC, but I'm afraid it will be much more involved and might require rewiring...something I don't want to do! Again, less than $100, and one wire for TMCC.

How many of us would buy MTH units if we could control them from TMCC? I betcha MTH sales would double...

Jim Duda