DCS versus TMCC

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm back home, but I don't think anybody really minded the three week respite from my postings[:)].

Anyway, I am currently in the planning stages my of future three-rail layout, and must decide upon DCS or TMCC. Currently I have only conventional locomotives, but I am planning on purchasing the K-Line Mikado with TMCC. I believe that I read that with a special accessory TMCC locomotives could be operated with DCS. Can I run DCS locomotives with TMCC? I have heard that TMCC is easier, but at the same time the MTH information on DCS portrays it as easy and TMCC as difficult. Which one is easier, and more importantly, which one is generally better, since I am not completely adverse to hard work (chuckle, chuckle). Please keep in mind that I do not have any control-system-specific equipment yet. Any help you could provide would be most appreciated.

Thank you,
Daniel

[Big_Boy_4005]

This is the old Beta vs VHS or IBM vs Apple war, brought to the toy train world, and frankly it bothers me a great deal. I have chosen my position in this battle based on a couple of things.

Which company was the first to offer command control?

Which system is being used by other manufacturers?

It is clear to me that MTH has chosen to stand alone by inventing a competing system after the fact.

I own 10 TMCC engines, I plan to use the serial port on the command station, in order to have a computer control some of the trains on my very large layout. I refuse to invest in a second system, even if it may be of higher quality, or has more features. I do not want to have to learn two seperate systems, or deal with the intricacies of trying to make them work together.

I find it extremely unfortunate that I will not be able to buy any of MTH's DCS equipped models, as there are a number of items that have caught my eye.

I do not consider conventional control to be a viable option for my needs. Some of those that read this response may get the impression that I am some kind of "train snob", but the truth is that 10 years ago I didn't own any trains that weren't made by Lionel, and now less than half of my equipment was made by them.


P.S. I do own a fair amount of MTH non powered equipment, and like it very much. I will continue to buy MTH cars and accessories, but when it comes to DCS I stand firm !

[Roger Bielen]

Personally, from what I've read I feel that TMCC is the easier way to go. With DCS there are interfaces to allow running TMCC equipment. With TMCC and a TPC you can run DCS equipment, I believe, in conventional.

Also it appears that TMCC is more user friendly in starting out, backwards compatible, and has become more widespread with aftermarket equipement and other manufacturer's gfetting on board.

Lastly, it may be a matter of what is more readily available in your area. Ther'a a lionel dealer within 10 mi. of my home, nearest MTH is an hour away.

Whichever way you go read all you can before starting constructon and especially wiring. Have fun and look at any problems as a learning exprience.

[Bob Keller]

It is really a flip of the coin depending on what you want to do with your layout.

TMCC has market penetration.

DCS is more advanced and, to me at least, easier to use since it has the the LCD screen. DCS advocates would also add that it can operate TMCC gear.

Personally, except when I'm testing trains for the magazine, I prefer to run everything in the conventional mode - I don't want to have to "think" about my trains. I just want to start them and let them go!

Bob Keller
Classic Toy Trains

[Anonymous]

Dear Big_Boy_4005, Roger Bielen, and Ogaugeoverlord,
I thank you very much for your input. I have one other question: if I can operate TMCC equipment with DCS, how hard is this to do, and is it worth it to do so isntead of just using TMCC? Once more, thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Daniel

[Big_Boy_4005]

As you can tell from my original response, I have a pretty strong opinion on this subject. Of course I have no experience in running both systems together, but I have read a fair amount written by people who have.

The simple answer is yes, they can be operated together, but It sounds tricky. In theory, is is supposed to be rather straight forward, but in practice it sounds like anything but.

Part of the trouble may come from the complexity of your layout, a simple layout may yield acceptable results. My layout is very large, and it will certainly take more effort than I'm willing to give, to resolve issues that can arise as a result of that fact.

I feel that I have enough other projects to do on my layout, rather than spend time debugging the quirks that would come from combining the two different systems. If you are good with electronics, you might be able to handle these tasks, if not, you may be asking a lot of questions and doing a fair amount of head scratching.

[Anonymous]

I am currently running TMCC and from different article that I have read I think i am going to stay with it there are more Manufactures offering TMCC compatible engines and accessories.
Some of the articles I have read and dealer displays that I have seen DCS has a bad point with the TICU ? or what ever they are called. Any short and there goes a TICU? I don't remember if it was in C.T.T or the other mag. I subscribe to both, but one instance the burned out a TICU ? I thinkl $200.00 a little expencive for operator error.
We all know there is always a chance of a derail or something metal falling across the track ( especialy when a 5 yr. old is involved) , Well this has happened 1 or 2 times he droped something or threw the wrong switch trying to help Daddy well. I only had to turn off the surge protector because the circut breaker in the TMCC stuff kicked, fix the problem, fix trains and turn the power back on.

[superwarp1]

Why do you have to decide either or? Do both. If you are starting a new layout you can wire it per MTH so you don't have signal problems and ad TMCC. You now can purchase engines from both MTH and Lionel.

Gary

[Bob Keller]

We ran features stories on both TMCC and DCS in 2002.

The TMCC story is Command contrl basics on p. 52 of the May 2002 issue. The DCS feature is Digital control delivers on p. 44 of the September 2002 issue.

E-mail me your mailing address and I'll be glad to send you copies of the articles.

Bob Keller
Classic Toy Trains

[Anonymous]

I agree with Big_Boy_4004, and might add that these clone manufactures could show a little more respect for Lionel. After all, 104 years of service to the hobby is worth something. At least K-Line uses the TMCC system, and is a member of the in-group. I do have MTH rolling stock, and would probably buy their engines if they got on the program.

my two cents;

Richard

[clinchfieldfan]

I have a medium to large layout and use the MTH DCS system with the TMCC command base. I have had zero problems with the two systems working in sync.

The engines I use are PS2 and Lionel and K-Line with TMCC. In my experience, the PS2 engines run better and have better control and more features than those with the TMCC. With the TMCC system some engines have receiver problems in tunnels where the mountians use mesh screen for the base.

The DCS system requires special wiring and the laying of the track is important. Since I began using control on my layout the difference is very dramatic!!!!! As for blowing the electronics in the TIU, I have had a couple of "major" derailments with no ill effect to the system. The type of transformer that is used to power the system is important, older transformers that don't trip the breaker quick were causing people to burn up the TIUs.

I personally have had fewer problems with my MTH engines, on the other hand several Lionel engines had to go back for service. I believe that is just the luck of the draw. Most manufacturers use somewhere "east' of the U.S. to make their engines so quality is basically the same. (In my opinion)

I recommend that you go with both DCS/TMCC if you do go command that way you can run anybodys product.

[Anonymous]

Dear everyone,
Thank you all. Your input is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

Take a look at the last 4 or 5 lionel catalogs. They discuss the use of TMCC, and that they have set it up to run ALL (as they say) engines ever made!

DCS is a proprietary (only their stuff) system of MTH and more work has to be done to get other systems to work on it. And there may not be enough room in your engines to convert.

Lionel seems to be working at getting business from making their TMCC user and industry favorable.

Call K-line, Williams & Lionel technical help lines - they will be helpful, and don't forget to look in Lionel's catalogs. They have given good attention to giving us understandable info........

[Jim Duda]

I won't try to hide anything and give you this newbie's viewpoint. I had my table all wired and got my first MTH Proto1 engine. The sounds were fantastic and I could program it, fire the electrocouplers, activate the passenger station sounds, control the volume of the diesel roar, all from my trusty old LW without ANY rewiring...just set it on the track and go. Later, I got my first TMCC engine. I could blow the whistle, ring the bell, and listen to the neat chuff sounds by just setting it on the track. Man, life is good!

Then I got my first MTH PS-2 loco and was reading about all the neat things you could do with the handheld unit that I couldn't do with just my old txfrmr. I also remember reading the TMCC instructions that you could do a lot more with the CAB-1 than I could running in conventional which is what I was doing. Everyone kept telling me I just had to connect ONE WIRE and I could run the TMCC engine with the Cab-1 AND still run all other stuff (in conventional). So I spent the $95 and got the "TMCC starter set". You get the base unit and the handheld CAB-1 controller.

To hook it up, you plug the wall wart in your power strip and the connector on it to the base unit. You connect one wire from the "U" terminal post on the base unit to your common rail - that's it! Now I could boost my smoke, turn my smoke on/off, adjust the sound of the chuff, whistle and bell, turn sounds completely off if I want, turn the headligtht,backup lights on/off, fire the tender coupler, activate crew talk, etc. , all from the handheld unit. And the steamer is from K-Line! It , like other manufacturers uses the TMCC / Railsounds control system. And all of my postwar stuff , the two MTH locos, still runs in conventional as if the TMCC base unit wasn't there.

That's the TMCC side of it. To be fair, I'd really like to hear what is involved in adding DCS to a layout that's already wired and functions perfectly, including TOTAL cost. I would LOVE to add DCS to my little table, because my PS-2 unit will come to life just like my K-Line did with TMCC, but I'm afraid it will be much more involved and might require rewiring...something I don't want to do! Again, less than $100, and one wire for TMCC.

How many of us would buy MTH units if we could control them from TMCC? I betcha MTH sales would double...

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

Hi all,

Well I have DCS and love it. Back in ’97 when I returned to my trains, I was told TMCC had to run at 18 volts, and no way to run both conventional and command at the same time on the same track. That was then. The only way to have Lionel sound was to have TMCC. I hope I wasn’t miss lead back then.

I had a fair amount of post-war and modern Lionel. TMCC did not look like the way to go at that time. MTH PS1 by OSI gave me the sounds that I was looking for at about $400.00 per engine for steam, $230 for Diesel. As I recall, much less than TMCC engines. Remember I’m an 027 man, big engines don’t fit on my layout.

MTH PS2 with DCS came along with the promise of being able to run both conventional command on the same track at the same time. AND IT DOES. And by the way, you don’t have to run at 18 volts.

There are many more controls in DCS, like setting the chugging rate of steam, 4 chuges per revolution of wheels. Smoke rate at low, med. or high., labor smoke. Setting volume for each sound, bell, horn, brakes, engine, etc.

To wire this in is just like connecting the transformer to the track. Just connect the transformer to the TIU (two wires) and then the TIU to the track. I did add a current breaker box to protect the TIU.



The DCS unit cost me around $225.00. My set was already wired with a star pattern. I found it best to have a feeder wire between turnouts.

[Jim Duda]

Spank - are you saying that if an existing layout has 10 switches you would run an additional 10 "hot" connections, one before and after each switch? That's what concerns me - the amount of rewiring that would be required to upgrade to DCS. I'm thinking that if I had it to do over again, I would have started with DCS, and if I didn't like it, changing to TMCC would only require the command base with one additional wire. Am I misinterpreting something?

Jim Duda

[spankybird]

Hi Jim,
No no no, thats not what I mean. I have noticed voltage drops after a switch. If you click on the web Icon below you can see my layout with a track plan. I think I have 4 leads on the outside loop and 3 on the inside loop. MTH recommends a lead every 25 feet of track.

I do have track single of 10 with one area of 9. Tack single is 1 to 10 with 10 being the best.

Hope this helps.

[MartyE]

Spanky...

Little off topic but beautiful bird. My sister had parrots and such before she past away and were essentially her kids. Now her fiance' takes care of them. At Christmas time they are included in the Kids Grab Bag.

As far as DCS setup, my friend has a pretty big DCS layout and the recommended drops seem to work for him. Although mine is not all that big, I have 3 drops on my biggest loop, 12x6, and it is more than sufficient.

[Jim Duda]

OK...I'll think about it...heck, I don't think I have 25' total and only 4 switches...(wink)
I think it would take 100 tables like mine and it would still be smaller than Elliot's! My trackage is only 3.5' X 8'.

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=3c0c66c6-324b-1475-6405-117166f5160d&size=

[spankybird]

HI Jim,

My layout is a little larger than yours. If I ever add DCS to my circus layout, it most probably have two or maybe three set of wires.

The other side of this is the cost of engines with command control. MTH Railking can range from $200.00 to $400.00 for most engines. Yes there are some over this price range, and some on sale under this price range.

I just bought this today.




Check out the product features:

• Metal Wheels, Axles and Gears
• Die-Cast Truck Sides, Pilots and Fuel Tank
• (2) Remotely Controlled Proto-Couplersr
• Colorful Paint Scheme
• Metal Chassis
• Metal Handrails and Decorative Horn
• (2) Precision Flywheel Equipped Motors
• Locomotive Speed Control
• Lighted Cab Interior
• (2) Engineer Cab Figures
• Intricately Detailed ABS Body
• Overhead Blinking Light
• Operating Smoke Unit
• Directionally Controlled Headlight
• Proto-Sound 2.0 With The Digital Command System Featuring: Freight Yard Proto-Effects
• Unit Measures:15 1/4 x 2 1/2 x 4 1/16
• Operates On O-31 Curves

MSP $299.00 and I paid $198.00. Who else makes a command controlled engine for this price.
[#offtopic]
HI Marty,
By the way, Spanky is 9 years old and I have had him since he was 10 weeks old.

[Jim Duda]

Where on earth did you get it for under $200??? Does it smoke as well as the other MTH stuff does? That's just another reason for making me think about adding DCS to my layout.

Jim Duda

[MartyE]

Jim

If you have PS2 engines and enjoy command control then DCS only enhances the PS2 experience. I have 2 PS2 engines so far and am getting the most out of them. I also have the DCS controlling my TMCC and it has worked very well.

[nblum]

If you only operate conventional, you need neither, althought the remote control is possible with either equipment in conventional mode. You don't need the DCS system though, as you'll get better slowspeed control in conventional mode of PS1 and PS2 locos with a Z4000 and Remote Commander than you will with the TIU/DCS handheld.

If you want to operate PS2 locos in command mode, you need to spring for the $300 MSRP of the DCS system which includes a handheld and the TIU.

If you want to operate TMCC locos in command mode, you're going to need to spring for the $130 MSRP TMCC combination of the cab-1 handheld and the command base.

The DCS handheld and TIU can operate most important TMCC functions if you purchase a $20 cable, but you'll still need the command base and you'll need the cab-1 to do full resets and lashups of TMCC locos.

So the two systems are largely independent and have similar functions, achieved rather differently from a technical standpoint. They function side by side quite easily. If you want one or the other, decide if you're going to be buying mainly MTH PS2 locos (then get DCS) or primarily Lionel, Atlas, K-Line and Weaver (then start with TMCC). In either case, to operate the other system, you need the other company's command control equipment.

[spankybird]

Hi Jim,
I was looking for a CSX engine, so I started at www.mth-railking.com. I went to the product locator and did a search on just that. A CSX , Diesel, Railking. It gave me several engines to choose from. Once I pick one, it listed the different dealers that have them with their web sites if they have one, e-mail, phone number. Northeast Trains had it.

I just ordered it today, it should ship soon and when I receive and charge the battery, I will try it and let you know. This engine was in the 2002 toyfair catalog.

List price on Rugged Rail steam engines is $200.00. Glenn Trains, Arkon, ohio normally sells MTH at 15% off list. The Rugged Rail is like old Lionel 027 in some ways. BUT hay, command control engine for $200.00.
tom

[Anonymous]

This is not, nor should it ever be considered a DCS vs. TMCC issue. It is not an either or.

As others have pointed out, the two systems work very well together. TMCC is effectively, a very inexpensive add on to DCS (i.e. a Lionel Command Base and Cab 1 set up can usually be purchased for $100.00 or less, sometimes a lot less). Add the Command Base, a $20.00 adapter cable, and you can run both TMCC and PS-2 through the DCS Handheld, or, you can still run your TMCC locomotives via the Cab 1. We do demos for MTH and this is all very easy to do (MTH actually likes to see us run TMCC via DCS at Demos). You can also run conventional through the built in variable channels. The only thing you cannot yet do from the DCS Handheld is to run lashups, and do some of the TMCC programming (I belive that some of the new TMCC Crane Car requires input from the CAB 1 as well).
There was a very interesting article in CTT about running both systems together-It was very interesting but the manner in which it was done was grossly overcomplicated. It is a very, very simple thing to do.

If you run both systems together, you can run anything.

[macdannyk1]

Exactly. It isn't a versus thing. It's a complimentary thing.

[dmestan]

OK, so for a beginner what do you suggest to get started with DCS/TMCC? What components are needed to get started (using both together) and what is the approximate cost?

Don

[spankybird]

Hi Dmestan,

I guess it depends on what you already have or are planning to buy. DCS and also run TMCC but you need to buy DCS and then also buy TMCC command base. This will allow you to use the DCS remote to control all trains from the hand held controller. I believe there are some functions that the DCS remote does not do and you may still need the CAB1 control for some programming needs. I do not have any TMCC.

If you are planning on running conventional and command controlled engines at the same time on the same track, all that DCS requires is the TIU and Remote. If you also want to run TMCC with this, then you need to add the TMCC command base.

DCS TIU with Remote I believe at MSP is around $299.00, it can be bought for around $250.00. I believe the command base is another $100.00.

I did add a Radio Shack power supply to TIU for $18.00 (1 amp).

OGR makes a great tape or DVD for $20.00 on DCS. Its worth getting.

So if you have MTH PS2 engines, DCS is the only way to run them in command mode.

If you have TMCC you can use either

[Jim Duda]

OK gentlemen, I'm just about ready to add DCS but let me verify this one more time please...I have the TMCC command base connected to a 135 watt Powermaster, controlled by the CAB-1. This gives me control over post-war, PS-1, PS-2 in conventional, and total control over a TMCC loco. I only run one train at a time.

So here's the big question: Do I leave everything as is and simply connect the MTH TIU? via the MTH interface cable to the Lionel Command base and that's it? It seems to me that I would have TOTAL flexibility, even though I might have to use one or the other handheld in very rare cases. And it sounds like I can get all the MTH stuff I need (discounted) for under $300.

Since I only have 25 feet of trackage and 2 track feeds at the opposite ends of a 4'X8' table, I presume I won't have to rewire anything to satisfy DCS requirements.

Thanks for helping me with this. I'm just wondering if adding DCS to TMCC is as easy as adding TMCC to DCS.

Jim Duda

[nblum]

If you want to run TMCC you definitely want the cab-1 and the command base. If anyone tells you that you won't need the cab-1, and just buy the command base (for about $50), they haven't worked with the systems enough :).

While you can operate TMCC using the DCS handheld, TIU and command base combination, trouble shooting any problems (and there will be problems eventually), forming TMCC lashups or reprogramming TMCC locos requires the Cab-1.

In any case, the combination of the command base and cab-1 goes for $130 MSRP and can be found for less than $100 at most discount mail order places and some hobby shops.

In general, it's a lot easier to add TMCC to a DCS or conventionally controlled layout than vice versa, so if you're planning to operate PS2 locos in command mode, or already own a bunch of these, wire your layout for DCS and then add TMCC to it. If you're just starting out, and are looking for the simplest, easiest to implement system, start with TMCC but follow the DCS wiring guidelines (paired wires to each block of track of at least 16 gauge, insulate the middle rail of each block from the next block, be prepared to add small light bulbs across each block connection, etc.).

To add DCS to a TMCC layout is a trickier but doable proposition. The wiring needs may be very different. A simple, small two loop layout may just require adding the DCS signal to each loop. The simplest way to do this is to power the TIU by its auxiliary input (any Z500 to Z1000 transformer will work if you have one or buy the appropriate Radio Shack power supply). Then connect the fixed outputs of the TIU to each loop of the track. This is so-called passive mode and doesn't pass the DCS signal onto the track with the power. It just applies the signal. This has a number of advantages and one disadvantage. The emergency stop function of DCS is disabled. Everything else should work OK although you may need to add the lightbulbs (any voltage will do) across the outputs of the TIU or rewire somewhat.