MTH lawsuit against Lionel...

[3railguy]

2) About MTH and prewar reproductions: MTH did make a good profit on reproductions, which is what Mike Wolf was doing for Richard Kughn many years ago before MTH became a manufacturer. The two had a falling out in which MTH (then Mike's Train House, a retail outlet) was stripped of its Lionel dealer status. That lead to an out-of-court settlement which, among many things, allowed MTH to make certain tinplate reproductions that it had already been making. MTH didn't just go ahead and make reproductions, Lionel be damned.

On further note, MTH along with T Reproductions was reproducing Lionel before Kughn bought Lionel. When Kughn bought Lionel, he rightfully put an end to it and cut a partnership deal with Wolf. Market flooding caused the deal to lapse so MTH went on their own. Kughn's reaction was understandable considering the money he invested in Samhongsha's venture into diecast. A non-compete agreement was probably broken. Lionel's forfieture of prewar copy rights to MTH was probably due to lack of legal funds since the train market was suffering a recession at the time. 

 

[Deputy]

Deputy,
What I don't understand is why you fail to understand the facts of this case.

MTH is NOT without fault.  They have been ripping off Lionel designs since their inception.  Then after they 'win' the lawsuit, they fire another volley over Lionel's bow with their pathetic attempt at humor buildings.

I'm not a Lionel Die-hard, I find many of MTH's product superior to Lionel's offerings.  I however will not support a company with a chip on their shoulder, one that continues to spout lies about what truely happened.

Lionel did not pay the South Koreans to steal the MTH plans, most likely they had no idea who the original designers were, as the South Koreans most likely did not leave MTH logos or anything bearing reference to MTH on any of the designs or documents they would have had to present to Lionel to win the production contract.

Did Lionel profit from illegally obtained documents?  Yes.  Did they precipitate that action?  No.  Should Lionel be forced out of business because of this?  No.  Should Mike Wolf grow a spine and admit what his REAL intentions are?  Yes.  He wants to corner 100% of the O-gauge market, that is the goal of any business, to obtain monopoly status over a given industry, you can't blame him for that, but he is doing this in the name of you and I, toy train enthusiasts and that is wrong.  Why is it wrong?  Because once he obtains monopoly status he can control the industry and that will spell the end of this wonderful hobby.

MTH and Lionel share blame in this.  Jerry C. is attempting to lead his company into the future.  Mike Wolf seems to be attempting to drive his company right into the ground.  I hope Mike will come to his senses and stop this temper tantrum and work with Lionel to move the hobby into the future.  If these two companies would work together to make the industry better, then the winners will be everyone involved, you and I included.

<<< breaks out the peace pipe and hands it to Deputy to light and take the first toke.

lionroar88:Neil did a perfect job of replying to everyone's post, so there's not much I can say (although obviously there are people that INSIST in having the "last word" on MTH). Everyone has decided to ally themselves with one side or the other for all kinds of real or PERCEIVED reasons, so trying to dissuade one's opinion is pretty much a waste of time. I own a good number of Lionel AND MTH items. As a matter of fact I just got lucky and scored a Lionel 6-18321 FM Trainmaster with all the goodies (I'm one of those HORRIBLE persons that doesn't buy "cheap" stuff). I hold no loyalty towards either side. But to think that it's all the fault of ONE side or to "demonize" ONE person is just plain ludicrous...and I ain't talkin' about the rap singer either

Dep

[nblum]

"But for years I have watched hobbyists bash Mike Wolf using half-truths or falsehoods and that's just wrong."

 

Well, virtually all of what you say is true to be sure.  But what you leave out, understandably, is the undeniable fact that Mike Wolf, MTH's representatives and their fans have for more than a decade bad mouthed in print and in person Lionel and its products.  They ridiculed the postwar O27 repros (and then made them themselves) and they ridiculed TMCC and RS, which were demonstrably superior to the stuff MTH was offering between 1994 and 2002, until DCS was introduced.

Boldly crossing the line between aggressive promotion of your own products and ridiculing the products and customers of your competition, as Mike Wolf and his people have done in the past, is the single major source of the current ill will in the industry and hobby.  Add in the litigious approach to competition that MTH has chosen, and you have an unhappy situation.

 

Blaming hobbyists alone for spreading falsehoods and bad karma that Mike Wolf had a seminal role in creating is an oversimplification of what has actually transpired, in my view.  It's well past time for the leaders of the industry to take responsibility for the mistakes they've made and to stop repeating them.

[johnandjulie13]

Neil Besougloff:

Thank you for your insights.  As a relative newbie, it is helpful to get a clear, unbiased understanding of the past MTH/Lionel conflicts.  I too own both MTH and Lionel products and will continue to purchase products from both companies.  Given what I have heard and read over the past year, I have pondered about a company that had Mike Wolf's passion for this hobby coupled with Lionel's history and marketing ability. 

Regards,

John O

[Deputy]

[Jumijo]

"But for years I have watched hobbyists bash Mike Wolf using half-truths or falsehoods and that's just wrong."

 

Well, virtually all of what you say is true to be sure.  But what you leave out, understandably, is the undeniable fact that Mike Wolf, MTH's representatives and their fans have for more than a decade bad mouthed in print and in person Lionel and its products.  They ridiculed the postwar O27 repros (and then made them themselves) and they ridiculed TMCC and RS, which were demonstrably superior to the stuff MTH was offering between 1994 and 2002, until DCS was introduced.

Boldly crossing the line between aggressive promotion of your own products and ridiculing the products and customers of your competition, as Mike Wolf and his people have done in the past, is the single major source of the current ill will in the industry and hobby.  Add in the litigious approach to competition that MTH has chosen, and you have an unhappy situation.

 

Blaming hobbyists alone for spreading falsehoods and bad karma that Mike Wolf had a seminal role in creating is an oversimplification of what has actually transpired, in my view.  It's well past time for the leaders of the industry to take responsibility for the mistakes they've made and to stop repeating them.

 

Couldn't agree with you more, Neil!

[Anonymous]

LOL!

Deputy... now THAT is funny!

I wasn't attacking you or trying to disuade you one way or the other.  Just pointing out some things I've noticed over the years.

I have spoken with ex-employees from both companies and it is amazing how this has turned people into near diehard fans, more visious than NFL fans at times.  The pasionate 'hatered' is just amazing.

I guess that is to be expected when you have both companies doing basicly the same thing and then turning around and accusing the other of doing exactly what you are doing.  Kinda like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and your other on the whiskey bottle!

[Bob Keller]

Perhaps because everyone has said what they're saying now, 3,123,556 times previously, over the past five or six years.

[Anonymous]

jaabat,
The dead horse post is about this thread.  This has been going on for over 10 years and neither side is willing to admit fault or let the issue go, that is what beating a dead horse means.

I'm sure if MTH's customers were to contact the company and tell them to knock it off or they stop buying their products, and Lionel's did the same, this whole situation would be put to rest and then we could all spit in our hands and shake on it.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps because everyone has said what they're saying now, 3,123,556 times previously, over the past five or six years.

[crossracer]

Some questions come to mind after reading this thread.

 1. How long will it be till be see a new trial? this year, next, or somewhere in the far future?

 

2. If the lawyers took the original on consigment, but the appeal will be on hourly, will MTH simply change firms to get another consignment deal?

 

3. With bob Grubba playing a part in both the mth vs. lionel saga and the Lionel vs. Kline saga could Lionel simply palm him off as a "bad seed" who acted against the intersts of the company?

 

4. Do you think that MTH might have allready "spent" their money as the liklyhood of an successful appeal was in the neighborhood of 25%? If they did, or where really counting on this money coming in this will hurt them very badly indeed. It was my understanding that this was the last stop short of the US Supreme court which would not have taken the case anyway.  

5. Not a question, but a statement. Mth lost me as a customer the moment it made DCS a propierty system. As i love the simplicity of TMCC it basicly locked out a company with models i might have purschaced. IMHO this was a bad move by MTH, as it cost him major market share by losing people who had the TMCC system.

      Thanks for keeping it civil.

                 Bill 

 

[nblum]

"Perhaps because everyone has said what they're saying now, 3,123,556 times previously, over the past five or six years."

True, but people are still arguing about the Civil War 140+ years after it ended :).  Important stuff, or at least stuff that's of passionate interest to people, gets discussed over and over again, sometimes with little new insight, sometimes when new events occur, as they have this week.

[crossracer]

 

  In the sprit of the MTH reproduction of the court building, here is my idea. 

" Lastly, the appeals court reversed the lower court's granting of an injunction requested by MTH against Lionel that has kept Lionel from using the disputed locomotive plans."

  Produce a limited quanity of each loco. Make it nice and detailed and as a finishing touch include a scale sized builders plate with MTH listed as the builder and 1998 as the year.

 

  Is that evil enough for you?

 

Bill

[Deputy]

LOL!

Deputy... now THAT is funny!

I wasn't attacking you or trying to disuade you one way or the other.  Just pointing out some things I've noticed over the years.

I have spoken with ex-employees from both companies and it is amazing how this has turned people into near diehard fans, more visious than NFL fans at times.  The pasionate 'hatered' is just amazing.

I guess that is to be expected when you have both companies doing basicly the same thing and then turning around and accusing the other of doing exactly what you are doing.  Kinda like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and your other on the whiskey bottle!

lionroar88: No hard feelings from me. But as you can see, some people are like dogs with a bone...they just won't let go.

Dep

[PaulEFudd]

Some of you are continuing the on-line, and even the magazines "Kangaroo courtroom" that tried, convicted, and punished Lionel.  I read the appeals court ruling and recommend others do as well.  Basically, the court found that MTH's 'expert' witness used erroneous assumptions and errors in his review.  This translates that MTH failed to prove that Lionel used any of the plans in question in actual production engines, and this is what Lionel has said all along.  I think Lionel deserves the benefit of the doubt. The court didn't reduce the size of the "award", they remanded the case for a re-trial and lifted the injunction for the engines in question.  I am not a lawyer, and my layman's impression is that this means the case should die. 

I tend to think of large jury "awards" as gross mis-carriages of justice.  I am not saying some are never warranted, but can anyone honestly say they believed $40M was warranted in this case?  It was punishment, pure and simple.  The numbers were made by Mike Wolf and his lawyers rammed them home to the jury.  I have to believe tens of thousands of business' have been put out of business because of apparent un-ethical or "creative" accounting and jury "awards" in this country.  Many either pay off or declare bankruptcy.  I am sure many like and have profited from this brand of "justice", and there are probably boat loads of lawyers who love to go for the cases with big money.  If its true that MTHs lawyers worked on contingency, then maybe its poetic justice that they won't be getting a dime.  What happened in Korea was settled in Korea.  People were punished.  The notion that Lionel gained millions of dollars as a result of this is preposterous.  I never believed MTH's "numbers" and the appeals court documented just how flawed they were.

My opinion is that the appeals court exercised some common sense and due diligence along with legal expertise in their review of this case.  This gave me some renewed hope in our legal system.  Hopefully both companies can take "it on the chin" and move on.  Put resources in quality control, improved sound systems, repair times, spare parts inventories, etc.

Paul

[Anonymous]

I still think there should be a new trial.

[Deputy]

I still think there should be a new trial.

YEAH!!!! We need MORE threads pitting us against ourselves!!!!!  

Dep

[okiechoochoo]

I still think there should be a new trial.

Posted in jest I am sure

[Ole Timer]

 In my opinion the wrong company went out of business ... well K-Line did'nt go out it was bought out . Seems like I hear more everyday of MTH horror stories ! Their electronics are horrible ! Sound systems blowing and burning .... wait until all those defective designed sound boards complaints and returns  catch up with them . Lionel won't want them .... LOL

[spankybird]

 In my opinion the wrong company went out of business ... well K-Line did'nt go out it was bought out . Seems like I hear more everyday of MTH horror stories ! Their electronics are horrible ! Sound systems blowing and burning .... wait until all those defective designed sound boards complaints and returns  catch up with them . Lionel won't want them .... LOL

 

I think you really need to check your facts before you speak. K-line did in fact go out of business. All but a few of their employees were given their walking paper just before Christmas last year.

[Anonymous]

Paul Fudd Great thoughtful post,I could not agree more. I was initially fooled by the jury verdict. I thought the jury spoke and were fair after considering the facts,they probably were but they were fed "facts" which were really false interpolations. I think slick con man lawyers should be blamed rather than the jury. Lionel most likely had bad lawyers. Old Timer. I wonder if PS2 problems will surface the same way PS1 problems did years later. I just have no faith in MTH electronics which was why I never purchased the system when it came out. PS2 still relies on a battery which has been shown to be unnecessary as it can be replaced by a capacitor circuit,yet MTH persists with the batteries and battery chargers. It also requires a very ugly tether which Lionel had already gotten rid of. I used to be a big MTH customer but no longer buy their motive power. I think they strayed from what made them sucessful. Instead of making quality trains they have become an electronics development company and a litigator of competitors. Dale Hz

[GPJ68]

K-Line going under was entirely their own doing.  Lionel worked out a reasonable agreement to settle the shenanigans perpetuated by K-Line, but K-Line couldn't resist wildly spinning it into something it wasn't.   They weren't bought out, taken over, driven out, mercilessly crushed, whatever - their downfall was entirely self-inflicted (didn't/couldn't keep their traps shut when they should've). 

I also wouldn't necessarily characterize MTH's problems with PS1 and PS2 boards quite so harshly (horrible electronics, blowing/burning, defective).  Yes, there have been a healthy number of comments about problems over the years with boards (mostly PS1), but solutions have been developed over time (although not many originating from MTH).   Negatives always garner more attention than positives, and Lionel (and K-Line before the fall) has a list of less-than-stellar comments as well.  I have a hard time believing that MTH would still be in business if it's products were truly that bad (unless there's a small handful of Purple Koolaid drinkers spending massive amounts of $$$$ to prop up their chosen train god...).

Anyhow, to get back on topic re: the Appeal - Does anyone know what the statistics are on Remands like this actually resulting in a second trial?  I read the court report, and MTH really got blasted - Mikey's gonna have to completely rebuild his case from scratch.  His "expert" and all his testimony is in the can, his "loss" calculations have been slashed.  The only thing that stood up was the admission of the Korean transcripts, which really only confirms that something happened in KOREA between the subcontractors.  Well that, and the Court seems to think there was enough evidence of something POSSIBLY occuring to warrant a re-trial - they didn't toss the entire proceeding out, just the bulk of the testimony.  Lionel is back to presumed innocence and MTH back to square one. 

Something else not commented on yet it is the Michigan Court - they got slapped by the Appeals Court too, for allowing Lionel's rights to get stomped on and permitting the errors that required the Appeals Court to rule the way they did.  I hope the Michigan "robes" will take a much harder look at MTH's presentation in a second trial, to avoid the faults they allowed to seep through the first time.  I want to see justice IF Lionel really has some guilt in this mess, or Lionel get completely vindicated if MTH's case is ultimately baseless.  I know that if a superior tells me I royally screwed up a job/detail, I'm alot more careful and particular the second time around.

Seems to me this thing just got ALOT more expensive for MTH - will Mikey's lawyers even consider continuing on a contingency basis for a re-trial?  Will Mikey even want the same lawyers who led him to this?  How much will a bonafide expert cost to completely rebuild the technical side of the case, using proven/acceptable methodology, to be presented to a court that'll be using a microscope this time to avoid the previous foul-ups?  And that's if real factual evidence truly exists, not just the junk opinions spun up by the previous "expert" and someone else's monster ego....

[beefmalone]

True, but people are still arguing about the Civil War 140+ years after it ended :).  Important stuff, or at least stuff that's of passionate interest to people, gets discussed over and over again, sometimes with little new insight, sometimes when new events occur, as they have this week.

 We refer to it as the War of Northern Aggression or at the very least the War Between the States. :)

[ChiefEagles]

True, but people are still arguing about the Civil War 140+ years after it ended :).  Important stuff, or at least stuff that's of passionate interest to people, gets discussed over and over again, sometimes with little new insight, sometimes when new events occur, as they have this week.

 We refer to it as the War of Northern Aggression or at the very least the War Between the States. :)

And it will go on until those Yanks surrender and eat grits and drink sweet ice tea.

[Anonymous]

Chief,
I'm a born and bread Notherner, but I believe the South was right... look what happened after the North won... the gov began to grow and eventually became more corrupt than the English system we fought for Independence from...

But that wasn't why I was responding...

I drink sweet iced tea, but I'm not eating anything that sounds like it could be used to smooth rough wood, and that no one has been able to tell what EXACTLY a 'grit' is!



Now some good ol' fashioned bar-b-que...

[Buckeye Riveter]

True, but people are still arguing about the Civil War 140+ years after it ended :).  Important stuff, or at least stuff that's of passionate interest to people, gets discussed over and over again, sometimes with little new insight, sometimes when new events occur, as they have this week.

 We refer to it as the War of Northern Aggression or at the very least the War Between the States. :)

And it will go on until those Yanks surrender and eat grits and drink sweet ice tea.

Our plan is to move to NC and take over the state.  So far the plan is working very nicely, thank you.