I dont know if ayone will read this, being so far down the list, but here goes. Alan Miller says he does not care where trains are made, in the USA or overseas. Inexpensive goods are nice, but when one loses their job over it, and can not get work for more than half of the previous pay (even after 18 years), one sees things differently. Try buying trains on a Wal Mart salary!
Someone else posted that Lionel postwar items were over-engineered and Marx was under-engineered. I agree about Lionel, but not about Marx. Marx was inexpensive and lighter weight than Lionel, but Marx mechanisms are as tough as nails and if reasonably taken care of will last at least as long as Lionel. I own a lot of both.
I have also had hideous experiences with new electronic train gear (see: gripes about electronics in engines, my post). I now only by conventional train gear, no command control, run only by post war transformers. The wave forms used by the newer equipment to power trains do not work with all brands, unlike good old sine waves (traditional AC current).
I finally got around to bringing my Beth Steel Docksider in for servicing a month or so ago. That's what started this thread a couple of months back.
I heard from Charlie at Nassau Hobby a couple of days ago. Apparently it's a bad board. Charlie said it will be a while but it will covered by warranty.
These boards are what I hate about these new engines. This one went without a sign. I had the loco just sitting on a shelf for a month or two.
Mike S.
Mike, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your Docksider. Glad to hear that it's under warranty. I'm a postwar Lionel and Marx guy myself, but I have to admit, I really like my Docksider.'Course, if it smokes a board, it may end up as an expensive paperweight!
palallin wrote:Don't let nostalgia blind you. The ones running today are the survivors. Numerous of their fellows died untimely deaths long ago.
The trains I own today last ran in about 1964. At that point they went into the attic in New Jersey and sat there for almost 40 years. Freezing and near zero temperatures in the winter, 100+ all summer. Year after year. In 2003 I did some very routie mainteance and found they all ran like champs. These included a nearly 60 year 224, a likewise 726, a 2065 and two sets of F-3's. Ran them on the old track with the original zw.
I must be the luckiest guy in 48 states to have all survivors that would last so long under adverse conditions.
Mike, sorry to through a wrench in your theory of high techs driving the prices down on conventionals, but some of us go AC and DC! We did not take the business overseas, our manufacturers did, and for the most part, the quality keeps me going back for more.
Sorry for your bad experience, I hate to hear such stories that potentially stop people from taking it to a higher level.
Rich F.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
After being away from this Forum for awhile, I saw this thread and just had to jump in.
(1) For msacco, I'm sorry you're having trouble with your Docksider, but what do you want for $100? It's about as basic as a Lionel engine gets these days. Throw it away and buy another--unless it's a simple fix, you'd probably spend more than it's worth.
(2) For you "postwar rules" guys, no disrespect intended, but please. The O gauge train hobby would be pretty limited (if it existed at all) if all they offered was postwar retreads. Up until MTH got in the game, upped the ante and forced Big L to get competitive, we wouldn't have the advanced train technology and the choices we have today. I enjoy the sound, smoke, and all the realistic features that command control trains offer. And I'm not tied to a central control panel and can watch my trains from any angle I want (even from across the room). If it wasn't for the "modern" trains being offered today, I wouldn't have even gotten back into the hobby at all after leaving it in high school. We truly live in a golden age of O gauge trains, where there's plent of product out there regardless of what side of the fence you're on..
The new stuff may look nicer and have more features but what has happened to Quality?? Post war stuff had quality for the most part.
How do you tell a child that his or her new train has to go back to the shop (at a holiday time)for repairs? How would the company rep. like to deal with crying children at holiday time because a train broke down or didn't work at all out of the box? To me it seems that a lot of manufacturers don't test the products being made but just send out everything that comes in from overseas right away.
I would like to see quality trains along with nice features!
TMCC and DCS may be nice but what about being able to run trains? You have to do a lot of additional wiring to hook up either remote control and spend up to $400.00 to get either one to control switches or accessories.
For me old fashoned wiring is just fine, even with remote control you still have to wire into a unit like an AIU for DCS or other for TMCC. The only thing I can think of for getting either system is the conveniance of being able to control most stuff from one device like a TV remote.
I am trying not to be biased here but more quality is needed by more than one large company.
Lee F.
RI Jim wrote: For you "postwar rules" guys, no disrespect intended, but please. The O gauge train hobby would be pretty limited (if it existed at all) if all they offered was postwar retreads.
For you "postwar rules" guys, no disrespect intended, but please. The O gauge train hobby would be pretty limited (if it existed at all) if all they offered was postwar retreads.
some folks like stuff that is different than what you like.
Up until MTH got in the game, upped the ante and forced Big L to get competitive, we wouldn't have the advanced train technology and the choices we have today.
please.
as for post war versus "modern", you stated that most eloquently in your first comment:
I'm sorry you're having trouble with your Docksider, but what do you want for $100? It's about as basic as a Lionel engine gets these days. Throw it away and buy another--unless it's a simple fix, you'd probably spend more than it's worth.
thanks for making my point about the longevity of postwar trains as compared to the "modern" irrepairable import marvels. Couldn't have stated that better myself.
I disagree. I like the new stuff, its amazingly realistic but I also like some of the old stuff too for some of the reasons stated. Lets face it though, there's more to this than meets the eye.
In the first place the old stuff we get, is the stuff that survived, chances are it either got rebuilt along the way, was well cared for, or was the opposite of a lemon.
Secondly, as any engineer should know, the more parts there are, the more likely something is to fail. Thats the basis behind the K.I.S.S. principle.
However when alls said and done its not rocket science, you've got a model which could, if need be, be easily fitted with a new motor or a new smoke unit or even an aftermarket sound system,, which you wouldnt do unless it was so rare that there was no other choice to keep it running.
So whilst I can appreciate the frustration that led to those remarks because if it was me I might have exploded with wrath too, honestly its not so bad, is it? Assuming the replacement board is good and assuming that you have a fast acting circuit breaker in case of any future derailment shorts, you can reasonably expect the loco to behave itself and last well with reasonable care.
The whole thing is, when new stuff doesn't work anymore, you can easily convert it into old stuff by placing a rectifier or a simple e-unit. Old stuff can't be transformed into new stuff because the cirquitry of the boards are not able to handle those huge currents needed, nor can they put out AC.
I love the features of my "new" engines. A lot of lights, see trough grilles, separate fans, sounds, operating coilcouplers on any part of the layout.. It does need a new battery (Nicads are no good in those machines, I convert them straight into NiMH type batteries) or a new tractiontire now and then.
So what? If they fail big time, I convert them into postwar style operated machines, but there hasn't been a single time I had to do that. The problems are with the mechanical parts of the board all the time. Relay's, fried contacts, loose soldering, bad signals because of flat batteries.. That those things are in or around the cirquitry board doesn't mean that the electronics are bad or that the board is dead, it's the same hassle as with the mechanical e-units; a missing connection due to a bad contact between 2 parts. The electronics themselves are very overbuilt; 40 volts capicitors on a board working on 9 volts, 0,25 watt resistors on a place where 0,005 watts are sufficient.. 6 amp transistors where only 1,5 amp is used.. If a connection comes loose they say "the board is fried" because it's far cheaper to change the board then take time to see where it's missing it's link.
Building quality is also much better. Castings are clean and crisp, lettering and decals are better and don't change colors over the years, cast-in detail is much better, motors are standard and can be bought everywhere, they use far less power then their postwar mates, run quiter and are able to crawl really slow.. Look at the K-line plymouth switcher/ dockside switcher and then compare them to a postwar item. Any postwar item. It is a huge jump forward in how it looks and how precise it's made.
That doens't mean that you can't fry the board, if you use a 10 amp Z to power a plymouth switcher the electronics fry themselves because they are rated at 6 amps. Those huge transformers are great for postwar, but for the electronicly operated machines you better use a 3 amp transformer. You don't need 10 amps to power 1 train and yes, that can cause burnt electronic parts.
The solution is simple; use modern trains with modern equipment, an MTH z750 transformer doesn't fry cirquitry, because they give 3 amps maximum, which is lower then the capicity the board can handle. To speak in other terms, if you drink 10 litres of water when you can only have place for 1 liter, the problems following the huge drink are not because the water is bad, but because you added too much.
Don
dbaker48 wrote: No, I want to reap the full benefit, wearing it out.
No, I want to reap the full benefit, wearing it out.
now THAT was funny
I disagree, Daan. The locomotive, not the transformer, determines the current that is drawn at any particular voltage. Only when the locomotive has already failed is it possible (but not necessary) that it will draw more than its normal current, regardless of whether the transformer can supply only that normal current or ten times as much.
The situation is much the same as for your 230-volt power lines. You can plug a lamp that draws 250 milliamperes into a circuit protected at 30 amperes; and it looks just like one plugged into a 10-ampere circuit and lasts just as long. The fact that one circuit can supply more current than the other doesn't mean that it has any way to force the lamp to draw a heavier current. The lamp draws the same 250 milliamperes as long as the voltage is 230. Only the voltage of the supply matters in determining the load current.
Likewise, the same locomotive, elecronics-heavy or not, at the same voltage will draw the same current from a type 1033 as from a (15-ampere) type Z.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoni wrote: I disagree, Daan. The locomotive, not the transformer, determines the current that is drawn at any particular voltage. Only when the locomotive has already failed is it possible (but not necessary) that it will draw more than its normal current, regardless of whether the transformer can supply only that normal current or ten times as much. The situation is much the same as for your 230-volt power lines. You can plug a lamp that draws 250 milliamperes into a circuit protected at 30 amperes; and it looks just like one plugged into a 10-ampere circuit and lasts just as long. The fact that one circuit can supply more current than the other doesn't mean that it has any way to force the lamp to draw a heavier current. The lamp draws the same 250 milliamperes as long as the voltage is 230. Only the voltage of the supply matters in determining the load current. Likewise, the same locomotive, elecronics-heavy or not, at the same voltage will draw the same current from a type 1033 as from a (15-ampere) type Z.
Yep, you're right with that, I found it also when reading it through. Lets say you have an excessive load behind your plymouth, the motor stalls and amps are shooting high. Before the motor burns, which takes a time, the rectifier and transistors used in the e-unit are getting too much amps and frie themselves. With an old Z transformer the power drawn by the motor (lets say in stall about 8 amps) will be provided without problems. The rectifiers are the first in line to handle those 8 amps, so they will burn. A modern transformer which is sised to it's duty (not exsessively overrated) won't deliver those 8 amps and its protection kicks in, which shuts off the power to the plymouth. The electronics are saved by the transformer's protection system. (you know, but others may be don't).
If you want to be sure, just make a simple glass fuse with a holder used for car radio's and put that in a lead to the electronic board. If you'll choose a quick blow 3 amp fuse, the worst thing possible is that the fuse blows and your board stay's safe.
The current Golden Age of 3-rail trains wouldn't be possible without the previous Golden Age of 3-rail trains. Back then, individual production runs of trains were made in the thousands, if not 10's of thousands. Unike today, where a production run of one item may not even exceed one thousand. And many times, not even a single thousand. And even some of those low production run items are still readily available. Ironically you might have a harder time finding something made in the thousands decades ago.
Yes, there were some cheaper trains made in the past. By sheer percentages of numbers, it would make sense that some did not survive. But many did, even cheap ones.... many ended up on my train layout. Most of my older trains were cheaper ones and beaters at that when I got them. My otherwise valuable postwar Pennsy Merchandise Car was only worth a few bucks when I got it. Now lovingly redone into Erie Lackawanna, it looks as works as if it were brand new.
And on the topic of cheap trains, how about MARX?
MARX, one time cost-cutting low price leader of affordable budget trains. Many MARX trains survived and actually still run like the champs they were made to be. For all their supposed cheapness, MARX was very cleverly engineered and even innovative for their time.
Yep, MTH certainly upped the anty on today's train market. And there is no doubt the whole hobby owes a debt of appreciation to MTH and the push forward that was greatly inspired by MTH's product offerings. But as much as one can argue that the benefits of selection and prototypical realism can be attributed to MTH, the current state of legal wrangling can also be attributed to the same trains. It's not the trains themselves, but the expense of development and tooling that has led to some looking for shortcuts.
So while today's Golden Age of trains may have bonuses, there have been liabilities. We have lost one major train company for focusing too heavily on the high end,and for their own stupidity (the shared technology statement).And we have lawsuits that have put a couple other train companies in precarious situations. It is entirely possible that one company will go under when the final ruling comes on the first lawsuit in December or January. And should they both survive that round, there are other lawsuits in the making.
High tech prototypical trains may be wonderful, but there has been a heavy cost. That cost gets passed on to everyone (including the low-end train buyer) since the high-end items cannot themsevles pay for their own tooling and development costs, despite the dirt cheap labor costs overseas. And then there's the lawsuits and the companies are not in court fighting over starter train sets or budget train cars.
Yep, it's a great time for the hobby depending on what side of the fence you sit on. And it a few months, it might still be a great time for the hobby, depending on which side of the courtroom you happen to be sitting on.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I have one Postwar engine, and I love it. It is a 027 model. I have only one problem with the new stuff, and that would be the cost of a new board to put in the engine. I have had this happen twice, and both happened to be MTH (have not bought a single thing form them since.) I got a N&W J Passenger set from MTH at Christmas 2000. 2 days after I got it, the board went bad. So I took it back and got the PRR Turbine set. That engine went about a year ago. I have 2 Lionel command engines, both new run C420s, and love them both. I haven't run them in over six months, and I went downstairs yesterday, and fired both of them up, and they ran perfectly.
So, as I mentioned above, I don't like how the price of a board can be worth more than the engine itself.
I like the details on the new stuff but as for all the bells and whistles I am not that impressed with. Electronics do go bad at times or don't work correctly from day one.
Ever try to get an appliance repaired? If you think the price of a new circuit board is high try getting a major appliance repaired, then YOU can SCREAM!!!!
dbaker48 wrote:Gosh, wish I had a Black & White TV, never did like cell phones
Good one Don !! I still carry a lunch pail to work, but had to upgrade to one of the newer plastic pails ! It seems to be holding up ok & so are my newer trains !!
Thanks, John
Hmmm, how about this for irony... the same one individual who is so single handedly responsible for taking 3-rail trains into the digital future collects and drives old classic automobiles (and says the new ones are not built like the old ones). He still insists on recording in analog (analog tape isn't even being made now) even though the record industry has been digital for the past 20+ years: Neil Young.
I watch black and white TV and actually prefer it, and don't have a cell phone. It drives me nuts when folks cell phones go off in church.... I think if God needs to reach you, He has other means beyond a cell phone. I don't have any digitial control on my trains and even have converted them to DC current operation, and yet I gander to say I have as much fun as anyone else. I have never paid more than $80 for an engine and that was only once. One of my best running locos I paid a single $1 for.
Some might think "how can I possibly enjoy life?" To some Americans, I probably live my life like a pauper. But even in this modern day where we train guys quibble over the adavantages of TMCC versus DCS, there are folks in this world who don't have enough to eat or have a roof over their heads. We had a Chinese woman in church a few weeks ago who spoke of her years in prison for simply speaking publically that she believed in Jesus. That puts some perspective on my freedoms here in America. 30 minutes of the evening news watched on my black and white TV tells me I am living the privledged life of a king as compared to so many others in the world today.
Don, I'm not picking on you. I know you were bing funny, but you inspired me. It's all just a matter of perspective and appreciation. When I have a crappy day, I remind myself I have both legs and arms. I've heard too many news stories about young American soldiers coming home missing one of those limbs I take for granted. A heavy price for the freedoms we all sometimes take for granted.
On Neil Young's new album, there's one of many rants (some more mindless than others) called "The Restless Consumer." Looks like the "Flip Flop" shoe fits both feet!
Kind of funny really, that the same consumerism attitude he knocks on the record, is the same one that drives forward the whole technology and scale detail quest in the 3-rail train hobby. Listen to Neil carry on about the new Lionel Legacy system and how you just have to have this new system... sounds like consumerism to me. I don't need to have it... my trains already run pretty darn good.
To alter that song, "Don't need TMCC to enjoy running my trains. Don't need expensive trains to know mine are worth just as much to me."
Don:
When ever you grow tired of your post war trains, you can send thm to me!
Don't have a cell phone either!!!! Can't stand them!!!
I must be one of the very few in America without one and I"m 41 years old. Everyone around me has them so what's wrong with me?
They are one of the rudest things to ever come along. I'm a teacher and I can't begin to tell you what a problem they used to be in our school until they became forbidden during school hours. If I even see one in class, I confiscate it. These things have created a real problem in our society. From dangerours driving situations to just plain rudeness when a call interrupts various social events.
Plus, I think I have had maybe one clear conversation with a cell phone user in about 100 calls. Here in the NY metro area reception is mostly bad.
Heck, I've lived 41 years without one, I think I can live another 41 without one as well.
Feel pretty much the same about postwar trains. I've lived with them and I'll stay with them.
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