New Haven Electrification

[PBenham]

There was no reason for NH straight electrics to use the LI third rail.(under normal conditions) Yes, the FL9s could use the LI third rail, but it forced that train over on to a LI track into Penn Station. EMD made an effort to sell FL9s to Long Island, and NYC without success. Then, there would be a through train on a "narrow" platform, with little room for baggage trucks to move around. The FL9s used only LI tracks, PRRs were all 12Kv AC, which FL9s could not tap into. When the Empire Connection was built, LI gave up two tracks to Amtrak, and they didn't get the space back. 

[timz]

So you are telling me that the New Haven never used Long Island DC power until the occasional FL-9 pair ran into Penn Station with the double-sprung EMD shoes?   Even thought the EP-2 and EP-3 electrics could have used the LIRR third rail before 1933?

No, we're telling you that's what those two books seem to be saying. Personally, I have no idea. Why do you assume the NH electrics could use LIRR third rail?

[daveklepper]

More claification:  So you are telling me that the New Haven never used Long Island DC power until the occasional FL-9 pair ran into Penn Station with the double-sprung EMD shoes?   Even thought the EP-2 and EP-3 electrics could have used the LIRR third rail before 1933?

 

Also, the demonstration by Westinghouse on the Camden and Ambay line that led to the adoption by the New Haven of AC high-voltage electrification; had it been preceded by any other such demonstration or operating system?

[PBenham]

I looked again at "NH Power"-- it says steam ran to SS2 on some NH trains until 1927, but a power change "was required" there until 1933. Was SS2 just the NH designation for Harold?

The same book mentions the short piece of AC-powered third rail at Cos Cob. Doesn't say when it was removed.

SS2 was Shell. Harold was an NH tower, it was Long Island tower later.(Post 1977?) NH's route to Bay Ridge, included some LI trackage rights starting at Harold. NH and LI both provided signalmen to man Harold and the practice continued with Penn Central, and Amtrak. I do not recall when Harold closed, if indeed it did. Anyone know? The AC third rail at Cos Cob was de-activated before WWI when NH dropped the idea.( NH was happy with overhead catenary, which was a safer way to get the high voltages to the trains using it.) As to the power change at SS2/Shell, clearences at Penn Station didn't clear the "NYC" shoes on EP1s. When NH got the EP2s (Tigers to true NH types) the clearence problem was done away with by having the shoes retract to a higher point above the rail head. After 1934, LI's third rail line by Harold did not see any NH trains, which ran on a new link up to Sunnyside, then in to Penn Station. One can ride this line on Amtrak for as long as it lasts!

[timz]

I looked again at "NH Power"-- it says steam ran to SS2 on some NH trains until 1927, but a power change "was required" there until 1933. Was SS2 just the NH designation for Harold?

The same book mentions the short piece of AC-powered third rail at Cos Cob. Doesn't say when it was removed.

[PBenham]

Does someone claim that NH electrics ever ran on overrunning third rail (except for that Cos Cob AC installation that NH Power mentions?          By the way, NY to Philadelphia was electrified early 1933; did that not extend to Harold and the NH?

Yes on the second question. Please clarify the first question. Power from Cos Cob was 11Kv, which went to NH's overhead catenary. NYC's third rail system got NH trains into GCT, NH paid NYC for the power their trains used while running on the Harlem and Hudson lines into GCT, based upon a negotiated formula. Anyone have 411 on that agreement? I haven't seen it mentioned in the books I have on the Metro NY area. I know it existed, because Con Ed wanted to sue PC for unpaid balances in the ex-NYC and ex-NH accounts, and causing them to have more financial problems. PC won the suit (Hey, aren't we bankrupt? Was the PC defense), New York and the MTA paid Con Ed off. which means that tax payers like me paid Con Ed!

[PBenham]

Thanks for the quick reply.   I think you mean that Pacifics and Mikes ran under the wires from New Haven to New Rochelle (Shell interlocking tower), not Woodlawn (except possibly the occasional local freight to interchange with the NYC).   The question still remains between the post WWI electrification and 1936, did DD-1's ever haul for the New Haven with power swap at Harold to electrics and not steam?

   To my knowledge, based upon the information available to me, the DD1s only ran as far as Harold. Then, an NH locomotive  (Steam or straight electric) took over for the run on the New York Connecting,and up to Shell (My bad). Officially, the trains were handed over at Harold, after a Long Island crew got the train there from Penn Station. After PRR re-electrified in the early '30s, they re-negotiated the crew districts and NH crews began to run into Penn Station. Amtrak crews are still running under that same arrangement today! (or one very close to it)                                                                                        

[timz]

Does someone claim that NH electrics ever ran on overrunning third rail (except for that Cos Cob AC installation that NH Power mentions?          By the way, NY to Philadelphia was electrified early 1933; did that not extend to Harold and the NH?

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the quick reply.   I think you mean that Pacifics and Mikes ran under the wires from New Haven to New Rochelle (Shell interlocking tower), not Woodlawn (except possibly the occasional local freight to interchange with the NYC).   The question still remains between the post WWI electrification and 1936, did DD-1's ever haul for the New Haven with power swap at Harold to electrics and not steam?

[PBenham]

As to the first question, PRR with Westinghouse engineers, tested high voltage AC on test trackage in New Jersey in the early 20th century on the Camden & Amboy branch. (Pennypacker/Staufer, Pennsy Power and Pennsy Power VolII, and Vol.III.) Westinghouse invited interested parties to the tests, such as NYC, NH, Great Northern, and others, all of whom looked and listened. NH liked what they saw and bought in to the AC system, GN tried a Swiss three phase system, then went to the Westinghouse high voltage AC in the mid 20s, while they drilled the current Cascade tunnel. NYC's William Wilgus, in a rare boo-boo decided on 600v.DC, which led to the NH having to overpay for their passenger electrics, since they had to have third rail shoes, small gap bridging pantographs and switching gear which was very complex and expensive for the time frames in which they were designed and built. The amazing part of all of it was, that it all worked- and well, up until the FL9s early travails! The alternative would have been all-DC units to run from GCT to Woodlawn. Which brings in the second question. NH's dual voltage units should have been able to operate into Penn station. They didn't into the 20's since NH, thanks to their financial problems, could not get any more EP1s (Ponies). This also delayed electrifying the bridge until after WWI. (Why buy units for use where we don't have wires yet?) As a result, I2 Pacifics ran under the wires New Haven to Woodlawn NY, as did J1 Mikes, on freights. The Harlem River branch was electrified, and that was all-AC from the start. 411 on this, from "New Haven Power 1832-1968",  Jack Swanberg, with Alvin Staufer, editing, and writing those wonderful--and opinionated photo captions! (true, also for the Pennsy books, too,BTW)

[daveklepper]

1.  It was in 1903 that the New Haven engineers decided on AC, 25Hz, 11000 Volt electrifcation for New York (Woodlawn) to Boston (finances ran out at New Haven).  The first locomotive, an EP-1, was tested in 1905.   The first Grand Central electric trains rolled in 1904, but the first New Haven electrics ran in 1907, first only to New Rochelle, than later that year to Stamford, and to New Haven in 1915.   Was there any experience anywhere in the World (Germany, Switzerland?) with high voltage overhead wire electrificaiton before 1903?   The only prior New Haven electrification experience was with trolley-like dc 600 volts.   The original Sprague Richmond, VA trolleys ran in 1887.

2.  A very good basically picture book on the New Haven's electrified zone, which taught me details about the equipment that I had not known, says that after the New York Connecting RR (the Hell Gate Bridge route) was electrified, the practice in the steam days was continued at Harold Tower (or nearby) and side-rod Pennsylvania (or Long Island) DD-1's took the New Haven trains into Penn Station until the Pennsy electrification was extended from Trenton to Sunnyside Yard in Queens and a connection with the New Haven's at Harold in 1936.   I'm sure this is not completely true.   The EP-2, EP-3, and EP-4 power (not sure about the "Jets" or the EP-1's) had a shoe that could pick up third-rail power from both the overrunning LIRR third rail and the New York Central's underrunning, so they could have run into Penn on dc power.

Speculation might suggest that originally they did hand over the trains to DD-1 power until WWI and a vast increase in traffic and the B&O trains added to the mix taxed the available DD-1 fleet, and the practice of running through continued after WWI.   Any information on this question will be appreciated.