New Haven Electrification

[daveklepper]

some more memories returned:   It wasn't only additional air competition.  Over Bill Goodwin's objections, the senior New Haven management insisted that these new postwar parlor cars should have two-and-one seating stead of one and one!   That is right, one side of the parlor car interior and two rows of chairs and the other one row!   Not only did the customers used to single chairs in the heavyweight parlors object, but the new PRR equipment for the Senator arrived in 1850 with traditional sigle rows of chairs on each side.  So  conversion program begain to convert all the New Haven parlors to single rows, and this program was completed for all straight parlors.   The parlor combines were the last to be converted and some never were.  But they were converted for other uses.

[daveklepper]

In the absence of my locating the thread on postwar New Haven lightweight cars, I felt it necessary to delve deeper here on the two round-end observations.

 

1.   They were originally purchased for the Merchants Limited and not the Yankee Clipper as sometimes stated.

 

2.   As a post-WWII heavyweight, the Merchants was an all-parlor train, and I think it even had a brass-railed open-platform observation car at the rear.   The intent of the New Haven management was to modernize it as an all-parlor train.

 

3.   The postwar coach fleet, the 8600's arrived before the diners and parlors and grill cars and parlor-combines.  In 1949, the Yankee Clipper was run with heavyweight parlors up front, a heavywieght, and then after a while a lightweight diner, and then all lightweight coaches behind.   The Merchants was still an all-heavyweight parlor train.

 

4.   As soon as enough parlors arrived, the Merchants was converted to all lighweight equipment and this included the diner and the two round-end observations.   As soon as more parlors arrived, the Yankee Clipper got them and became all lightweight, with the parlors up front.

 

5.   The new coaches were a decided improvement over the earlier lighweight "American Flyers" for coach passengers.  (reclining seats for one)   The lightweight parlors did not make much of a difference, the heavyweights were excellent also as far as riding comfort.  (All equipment referred to was air-conditioned.)  Meanwhile, both American and Eastern Airlines were offering hourly service NY (LaGuardia) - Boston, alternating between the half hour on one airline and the hour on the other.   American replaced its DC-3's with higher-capacity DC-6's, Eastern with Constellations.   The New Haven lost some parlor business.   (More was lost later when the "Shuttle" concept was put in place by Eastern.)

 

6.   Bill Goodwin, the NYNH&H passenger VP, decided on a good move, to put coaches on the Merchants, including a lower priced grill car which ran in addition to the diner which continued to serve mostly the parlor patrons (but either group of passengers could use either car), and the Merchants coach traffic boomed.  He also decided the then the round-end parlor observations were more appropriately used on the Yankee Clipper running during daylight hours, with the parlor cars on this train on the rear instead of the front.  Yes, the round-ends did spend a lot more time on the Yankee Clipper than on the Merchants.   Coach traffic on the Merchants boomed to the extent that a four-hour "Advanced Merchants" was also operated, without stops from New Haven to Providence or Back Bay.   Both trains had a diner, coaches, and parlors, but only the regular Merchants had the grill car in addition.

 

That is what I remember, and someone with access to the timetables of the period can prove me right or wrong.

 

 

[daveklepper]

I think the tracks on Market Street were electrified as late as 1908 or 1910 after being run with cable for many years.

[erikem]

Interesting - thanks for digging that up. Another line that comes to mind, as one of the oldest (but not the oldest), is SF Muni's Market street line - though I don't think it is currently connected to the national rail network.

[daveklepper]

Some research into Boston Street Railway publications shows that the track with the oldest continuous electrification in North America today is part of the Beacon Street subway surface line in Boston.   Experimental electric operation started in 1888, with regular electric passenger service phased in in January 1889.   The original route was a horsecar line from Union Square, Allston, south on Harvard Street to Beacon Street, then the part still in service in the landscaped center reservation on Beacon Street to  St. Mary's Street.  From that point downtown the line is underground, but the original route was on the surface approximately the present route of the "Green Line" subway, and originally part of the downtown trackage was conduit, not trolley wire, but that lasted less than a year before wire replaced the conduit.

This was the third successful electric operation in North America, preceded by Richmond and Northumberland, PA.   All three were Sprague electrifications, and Frank Srague ran one of the first test and demonstration cars over the entire route before regular service.

The subway portion was built in stages, not all at once.

 

Whre New Canaan branch figures in the numerical order requires much further research.

 

At times, the standard gauge Boston streetcar network HAS been connected to the National railway system, sometimes at more than one location, but I am not sure of the present status.

[daveklepper]

And which is not standard gauge and which is not connection to the National Railway System.  The New Canaan branch is both!

Oh yes, I worked on the sound system at St. Mark's Episcopal in New Canaan.  Also made recommendations for the Presbyterian Church there.   Both have excellent pipe organs if I remember correctly, and the "Fish Church" (Stamford 1st Presbyterian) replaced its electronic with an excellent pipe organ.

[erikem]

Service is hourly using CT DOT MU cars - mostly shuttling back and forth between New Canaan and Stamford (didn't pay close attention to weekday rush-hour scheduling). Trip times are about 20 minutes each way. My understanding is that through trains to/from GCT are a rarity nowadays.

Probably the only older electified trackage in the US is New Orleans' St Charles line, which is also the oldest street railway in the world.

[daveklepper]

What is the current level of service on the line?  For many years it was hourly with a through Gradn Central train each way during rush hours (usually locomotive hauled for yearsm using two Ponies,"

[erikem]

Does anybody know the exact dates of the start of the New Canaan branch original dc electrication?  (I guess I can also ask my fellow Branford members.)

I've looked up two sources, Middleton's When the Steam Railroads Electrified and CERA Bulletin 118 Westinghouse Electric Railway Transportation and both give 1899 for the original DC electrification. I did get to ride the line a couple of months back when visiting my in-laws in New Canaan - pretty leisurely ride between New Canaan and Stamford.

[Tom Curtin]

I am aware of Bill Middleton's book's cover painting and I think it cointains some "artistic license;"  in fact I think the caption of the cover painting says exactly that.

You're correct that a few EP-2s received cab signals, (My use of "none" is an admitted overstatement) but they still rarely, if ever, operated into Penn.

[timz]

"The first NH electrics to operate into Penn were the EP-3s.  The EP-2s never did, because they were not cab signal-equipped to operate over PRR tracks."

NH Power says four EP-2s had PRR cab signals (305-308 was it?). FWIW the dustjacket painting of Middleton's book shows an EP-2 eastward beneath Queens Blvd. (Correctly numbered, too.)  Can't cite a photo, tho.

[daveklepper]

Thank youi for a much-needed correction.   I was misinformed by a New Haven employee when I was a youngster.   Interesting that I was so absolutely certain about this "fact" for some many years.  If I remember correctly, I was told this "fact" when riding the front platform of one of the old mu's.

 

The FL-9 information was from personal experience and thanks for the corroboration.   Did you know about the interference-repression measures necessary for the PRR to allow the EP-5's into Penn?

[Tom Curtin]

Gentlemen, NH passenger trains continued to change to PRR power at "Harold"  (or somewhere near there) until 1933 as a number of previous posts have stated.  NH freight electrics began to operate over the Hell Gate freight tracks and all the way down to Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, in 1927.

The first NH electrics to operate into Penn were the EP-3s.  The EP-2s never did, because they were not cab signal-equipped to operate over PRR tracks.  All NH's newer passenger electrics (EP-4s, EP-5s) came equipped with cab signals for this operation also.  Some of the EF-3s --- normally freight motors --- were equipped with steam heat so they could pull passenger trains into Penn.  Being straight AC motors they could not run into GCT.

Now: no New Haven electric, AFAIK, ever operated into Penn on third rail because their shoes were not designed to run on LIRR third rail.  They always kept their shoes retracted and ran on AC overhead.

FL9s did operate into Penn on third rail.  Their shoes were sprung differently than the ones on the electrics and could handle either design of third rail.  The New Haven would prefer to use straight electrics (after 1961 only EP-5s were on the roster) on the Penn jobs as long as one was available when needed. IT was difficult to keep enough of the EP-5s serviceable to handle all the Penn jobs as well as the heaviest of the GCT commuter runs that couldn't maintain schedule with FL9s.  The EP-5s were extremely maintenance-intensive and often out of service --- but hey, when they ran, thay could run like hell!!

The reasons for preferring EP-5s to FL9s for Penn jobs were: 1) the Penn jobs tended to be long and heavy, particularly a couple of them that had a lot of head-end traffic; and 2) from Harold up to Hell Gate is quite a substantial grade --- from the bottom of the East River tunnels up to the mouth at Hunterspoint Avenue, Queens, is a pretty good uphill pull too.

Tom Curtin

Controller, New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association

 

 

 

 

[timz]

the EP-2's and EP-3's had the third rail shoes to run into Penn Station. 

Not denying it, but-- who says so?

[daveklepper]

OK, so steam on some trains continued until 1929.   Fro, 1929 to the start of 1933 there was the AC electrification all the way to Harold Tower from New Haven, with all trains electrically powered.   During the period from 1929 to 1933 did all New Haven trains change power at Harold?  If so, why?  Crews could have changed, and the EP-2's and EP-3's had the third rail shoes to run into Penn Station.  They had a compatible train-stop inductive pickup sytem when they ran through after the start of 1933, and this signal system was standard in LIRR 3rd rail territory as well as on the PRR.  On the New Haven, the same system existed (in some areas) with one less aspect.  Of course if there were a pair of EP-1's on the train, then a power change to DD-1's would have been necdessary.

 

Does anybody know the exact dates of the start of the New Canaan branch original dc electrication?  (I guess I can also ask my fellow Branford members.)

[timz]

"Are you sure about that 1932 - 1933 date [for the Trenton-NY electrification]?  Others say 1935."

What others?

1935 was the completion of NY-Washington electrification. PRR AC-electric trains started running to Jersey City in December 1932 and to NY Penn in 12/32 or maybe 1/33.

[PBenham]

Now, the reason NH engineers had been speeding with GG1s, was that they took getting used to. The EP5s could accelerate all right, but the engineers could gauge how fast they got started up to 70MPH. A GG1 was rougher riding, more confined, and quieter than an EP5, which took getting used to. But me suspects NH hogheads wanted to run at 80 with the GG1s while they had a handy excuse for doing it!

[PBenham]

it was (and still is) against the rules of the Amtrak (PT&T/PRR) AND LI to have both power sources charged at the same time.

Any idea where that rule is printed?

So when an NJT train pulls into NY Penn on Track 14, someone has already cut off the third rail power, and after it leaves they cut off catenary power and restore third rail in preparation for the next LIRR train?

In the Amtrak Northeast Corridor safety rule book. There is a very real risk that the overhead could sag in warm/hot weather and make contact with a M.U. car on the third rail. Result: ZZZZZAAAPPPPP!  As to the second question, TimZ, that is precisely what happens. The computer in the power distribution office does it faster than any human being ever could and can screw it up faster, too! Look at the power disruptions they've had recently!

[daveklepper]

Of course you are correct.  But in acceleration, the PA's, at least when new, could outperform the FL-9's, when new.   I guess just a matter of simple horsepower rating.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Comparing FL9's against straight electrics is a bit unfair since a straight electric has access to a lot more horsepower from the power plant than a diesel-electric from its prime mover.  Not keeping everything properly maintained was New Haven's problem.

[daveklepper]

I don't think the EP-5's were the slouches in comparison to the GG-1's.   The FL-9's were the slouches.   One book I have shows three FL-9 units on the head of long passenger train during an airline strike leaving South Station.   No passengers train west of New Haven ever required more than one EP-5, EP-4, or EP-3, no matter how long.   (The "Pny's", the EP-1's, generally did run in multiple, typically two on the rush hour GCT - New Canaan train.)  And no more that two DL-109's or or two PA's east of New Haven.  (Of course there were power transfer moves.)  Not that the FL-9 was anything but a very good locomotive for what it was, and that is why there are still a few running today.  But not the equal of electric power.  .   And an EF-3 on a Penn Job passenger train could out-accelerate a GG-1, more hoursepower and more tractive effort.   Of course the EF-3's had been gone for about ten years by the time the GG-1's started running through.   After the GG-1's started running through, New York-based  Electric Railroaders Association ran a fan trip of PRR MP-54's to New Canaan and to New Haven, possibly the only time this equipment ran there.

 

The reason the New Haven enginemen did not like the GG-1's was not that they accelerated "too fast" but that their cab amenities were typical of a steam locomotive, while the New Haven engineers had been spoiled for years with comfortable seats, excellent vision, etc., even back to the box cab EP-2's and EP-3's.

 

I rode in the cab of a GG-1 once from New Haven to Penn Station.

 

Are you sure about that 1932 - 1933 date?  Others say 1935. 

[timz]

it was (and still is) against the rules of the Amtrak (PT&T/PRR) AND LI to have both power sources charged at the same time.

Any idea where that rule is printed?

So when an NJT train pulls into NY Penn on Track 14, someone has already cut off the third rail power, and after it leaves they cut off catenary power and restore third rail in preparation for the next LIRR train?

[PBenham]

I do not have a LI employee's timetable, but LI used its own tube under the East river and existing LI trackage was moved south as to accomodate Sunnyside yard. The links to the PT&T (Pennsylvania Tunnel & Terminal) being in Penn Station's east end, and at Harold tower. Big thanks to Triumph V,Dave Messer/ Charles Roberts, published by the latter. All that relates like this: NH trains came in around the edges of Sunnyside Yard, and Amtrak still does this. So the links to the New York Connecting (The other NYC) went to a split north of Harold, one for the Westbound NH trains for Penn Station, another for NH freights bound for Fresh Pond Jct or Bay Ridge, then the track for NH eastbounds. NH strung it's catenary on the NY Connecting in the early '20's, basically when NH could arrange affordable terms for the loans (bonds). NH also owned and maintained the catenary they had over LI trackage on their link to Bay Ridge yard. Catenary was strung over all PT&T trackage during 1932-3,and NH was first to use it! LI did not (unless they had to) use the tracks with overhead, since it was (and still is) against the rules of the Amtrak (PT&T/PRR) AND LI to have both power sources charged at the same time. Thus, someone at NH power control had to let PRR know when a train with an FL9 was headed to Penn Station. If that was to be the case, the third rail was energized and the overhead on the affected track was de-activated. Amtrak and, before them PC, solved the problem by sending GG1s to New Haven. This had both positive and negative sides, as might be imagined. GG1s did not look right to me sliding by Stamford at 80! BUT W-O-W! Needless to say the GG1s caught some NH hog heads off guard, as they were not used to the  high rate of acceleration as opposed to the EP5s, which could get up to 70 in the same time that a GG1 could get up to 80, or 10 MPH over the ex-NH 70 MPH limit!

[timz]

it would appear that the New Haven EP-2's and EP-3's DID use LIRR/PRR third rail power in 1933, 1934, and 1935, just up to the time that the Pennsy's Trenton - Sunnyside electrification was activated.

Trenton to NY Penn electrified service started January 1933 (or maybe Dec 1932). I assume the catenary to Sunnyside Yard opened then, and seems likely the LIRR main line thru Harold got catenary then too-- but I don't have a 1933 LIRR empl TT.

[daveklepper]

One interesting fact that is sometimes overlooked.   The New Canaan Branch actually is the oldest U. S. A. railroad (as oopposed to interurban or trolley line) electrification still in use.   It was originally electrified at 600V DC with regular trolley wire and integrated into the Satmford Connecticut Co. (New Haven subsidiary) streetcar network, like other semi-experimental New Haven RR branches in Connecticut.  All exceept the New Canaan Branch were eventually converted back to steam operation or abandoned, but the New Canaan Branch was converted to AC 11000V shortly after the main line electrication reached Stamford in the autumn of 1907.  I think I once did see a photograph of a streetcar on the line.  Can anyone think of an earlier electrification still in use?

Ther B&O Baltimore Tunnel electrification was the first, but it isn't in use. replaced by diesels.

 

Was any on the existing South Shore originally a trolley line electrified earlier?   I cannot think of any other candidate.

[PBenham]

NYC's third rail system got NH trains into GCT, NH paid NYC for the power their trains used while running on the Harlem and Hudson lines into GCT, based upon a negotiated formula. Anyone have 411 on that agreement?

You might find something in the book Passenger Terminals and Trains-there is a full chapter on the NYC/NYNH&H argeement for using Grand Central Terminal.

Indeed! The tripartite agreement between the New York Central's two predecessors and the New Haven divided up the expenses for everything involving NH with the Harlem RR. The Hudson River's share wasn't involved. This agreement was superseded by a new power contract between ConEd and Metro-North. ConEd wants this contract re-negotiated, Metro-North doesn't want it re-done, naturally.

[daveklepper]

Looking over all the postings on this thread, and particularly "up to 1933, change to a DD-1 ws required," it would appear that the New Haven EP-2's and EP-3's DID use LIRR/PRR third rail power in 1933, 1934, and 1935, just up to the time that the Pennsy's Trenton - Sunnyside electrification was activated.  Of course at that time all tracks at Penn Station had third rails.

[Kevin C. Smith]

NYC's third rail system got NH trains into GCT, NH paid NYC for the power their trains used while running on the Harlem and Hudson lines into GCT, based upon a negotiated formula. Anyone have 411 on that agreement?

You might find something in the book Passenger Terminals and Trains-there is a full chapter on the NYC/NYNH&H argeement for using Grand Central Terminal.

[daveklepper]

Would not there have been cases where New Haven EP-2's and EP-3's operated through to Penn Station with LIRR third rail power?   Before 1935?   Or were ALL trains handed over to DD-1's at Harold, until 1935?

 

Regarding FL-9's into Penn Station:  EF-3's and EP-3's and very occasionally EP-2's were pretty standard on NH trains to Penn Station, very seldom an EP-4.  Never an EP-1 in my experience.  ep-1's had been relegated to the Danbury and the New Canaan rush hour through jobs.)  !  When the Jets came they were used generally on Grand Central trains, not Penn jobs.  After the FL-9's came, the older NH power, including the EP-4's and EF-3's, were sidelined once they needed maintanance, without Van Nuys and with New Haven not able to keep up with diesel repairs.  They started using the Jets in Penn Station service.   Quickly they found the Jets interfered with communications and signals on the LIRR from RF interference.  So FL-9's were seen for a short time while RF suppression equipment was installed on the EP-5 Jets.   But they could do it.  They did make occasional trips afterward.

My understanding is that most tracks at Penn Station are (or were) equipped for both third rail and catenary.   I know the Broadway traditionally left on a track that was frequently used by LIRR trains.

At one time all tracks had third rail obviously.   And I know from personal observation that many LIRR tracks had catenary at least up to about 1990.

Check the TRAINS Forum, European Operations, for info on early German electrifications, single phase AC in 1904 and three phase in 1902.