The Milwaukee Road's Collapse.

[Anonymous]

You choose which one to select.

[Anonymous]

You choose which one to select.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure there is much need for a poll. The reason for the Milwaukee Roads collapse was that they should never have built the Pacific extension. The company never recovered from being the last road to the Pacific.

Of course the Milwaukee also lost out on the race to become part of the Union Pacific. The Rock Island and the Chicago Northwestern all competed for the UP's favor and had it not been for the money infused by the UP as well as the East -West traffic the C&NW could have easily gone the way of the Milwaukee as the Rock Island did once the Rock UP merger was turned down in the 1960's.

There were just too many midwestern railroads all competing for the same cyclical grain business. Of course had the Milwaukee been able to spin off the Pacific coast line had they been able to force themselves into the BN merger as they tried to do, or had they been able to rationalize other parts of the system sooner, who knows what might have been.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure there is much need for a poll. The reason for the Milwaukee Roads collapse was that they should never have built the Pacific extension. The company never recovered from being the last road to the Pacific.

Of course the Milwaukee also lost out on the race to become part of the Union Pacific. The Rock Island and the Chicago Northwestern all competed for the UP's favor and had it not been for the money infused by the UP as well as the East -West traffic the C&NW could have easily gone the way of the Milwaukee as the Rock Island did once the Rock UP merger was turned down in the 1960's.

There were just too many midwestern railroads all competing for the same cyclical grain business. Of course had the Milwaukee been able to spin off the Pacific coast line had they been able to force themselves into the BN merger as they tried to do, or had they been able to rationalize other parts of the system sooner, who knows what might have been.

[Anonymous]

Basically, the supreme incompetence of MILW directors was the telling factor. In the late 50s and early 60s they got themselves wrapped up in a proposed merger with the Chicago & Northwestern, so much so that they forgot to keep tabs on what Great Northern and Northern Pacific were up to with their initial merger attempts. Had MILW at least managed to gain from those roads certain necessary concessions -- basically, "gateways" to the northwest terminals with shared haulage rates -- in return for not opposing a merger (which, without those concessions, would have meant certain doom for the Milwaukee), they wouldn't have been left gaping with their jaws on the ground when their own CNW merger fell through at the last minute. Meanwhile, so confident had they been of that merger's approval, they (like CNW had previously done) deferred much needed maintenance on their physical plant, particularly out west, which further weakened their position.
It was this kind of fumble-fingered mismanagement and shortsightedness, more than anything else, which brought about the end of the Milwaukee.
-- Paul

[Anonymous]

Basically, the supreme incompetence of MILW directors was the telling factor. In the late 50s and early 60s they got themselves wrapped up in a proposed merger with the Chicago & Northwestern, so much so that they forgot to keep tabs on what Great Northern and Northern Pacific were up to with their initial merger attempts. Had MILW at least managed to gain from those roads certain necessary concessions -- basically, "gateways" to the northwest terminals with shared haulage rates -- in return for not opposing a merger (which, without those concessions, would have meant certain doom for the Milwaukee), they wouldn't have been left gaping with their jaws on the ground when their own CNW merger fell through at the last minute. Meanwhile, so confident had they been of that merger's approval, they (like CNW had previously done) deferred much needed maintenance on their physical plant, particularly out west, which further weakened their position.
It was this kind of fumble-fingered mismanagement and shortsightedness, more than anything else, which brought about the end of the Milwaukee.
-- Paul

[Anonymous]

After getting kicked out of the yard at Deer Lodge, and being threatened with arrest if I so much as crossed the tracks in Butte, I didn't shed any tears when they went under!

[Anonymous]

After getting kicked out of the yard at Deer Lodge, and being threatened with arrest if I so much as crossed the tracks in Butte, I didn't shed any tears when they went under!

[Anonymous]

After reading nkloudons reply, I must comment I too have been treated badly on occasion by numb skulled, frustrated employees, thats why I appreciate the TRAINS rather than some of the workers, although most are kind, helpful and understanding.
as with any company, ball team or club...theres always one or two that give it a bad name. I believe the milw rd crumbled because of the BN merger and extreme mis management. My message to some of the employees that dis like a job at the railroad is to remember there are guys out here, who for various reasons, never got a chance at the job of their dreams..appreciate what you have, and smile.

[Anonymous]

After reading nkloudons reply, I must comment I too have been treated badly on occasion by numb skulled, frustrated employees, thats why I appreciate the TRAINS rather than some of the workers, although most are kind, helpful and understanding.
as with any company, ball team or club...theres always one or two that give it a bad name. I believe the milw rd crumbled because of the BN merger and extreme mis management. My message to some of the employees that dis like a job at the railroad is to remember there are guys out here, who for various reasons, never got a chance at the job of their dreams..appreciate what you have, and smile.

[Anonymous]

I have started a thread about Milwaukee Road stories. If you have a story about the Milwaukee Road please follow the link below and share your Milwaukee Road story with us. Thank You Very Much

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6948

[Anonymous]

I have started a thread about Milwaukee Road stories. If you have a story about the Milwaukee Road please follow the link below and share your Milwaukee Road story with us. Thank You Very Much

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6948

[railman]

I believe it was management, among other factors. They had their minds focused on a merger for a decade, and when it didn't happen they were caught red handed with a railroad in ruin.

[railman]

I believe it was management, among other factors. They had their minds focused on a merger for a decade, and when it didn't happen they were caught red handed with a railroad in ruin.

[Anonymous]

I own a copy of "The Nation Pays Again" detailing the Milwaukee Road's fall. It's amazing the indifference Milwaukee's management had towards its railroad, and they all profitted from it, while others suffered and lost their jobs.
Going on the information in The Nation Pays..... it would also seem that the Burlington Northern had its own agenda against the Milwaukee Road to kill it off and garner all the business.

[Anonymous]

I own a copy of "The Nation Pays Again" detailing the Milwaukee Road's fall. It's amazing the indifference Milwaukee's management had towards its railroad, and they all profitted from it, while others suffered and lost their jobs.
Going on the information in The Nation Pays..... it would also seem that the Burlington Northern had its own agenda against the Milwaukee Road to kill it off and garner all the business.

[railman]

I think the BN knew that the Milwaukee was tanking and didn't have to have an agenda to tip it.

[railman]

I think the BN knew that the Milwaukee was tanking and didn't have to have an agenda to tip it.

[passengerfan]

The Pacific extension was the downfall of the Milw Road. for the most part it was overbuilt and didn't serve the major cities like the roads that had arrived before them. The homebuilt coaches of the CMSTP&P OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA never compared to the leg-rest coaches of the UP, NP or GN Chicago - Northwest streamliners. Remember the OLMPIAN HIAWATHA withdrew from Seattle and Tacoma in 1960 two years before the Seattle worlds fair which witnessed 500,000 passengers ride the EMPIRE BUILDER and WESTERN STAR between Chicago and Seattle between April 21, 1962 and October 21, 1962. Rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA on four different occasions in Coach once, and first class the other three times. The SKYTOP Observations made it worthwhile but the coaches always reminded me of a bygone era with the wood veneer. Maybe if they had gotten rid of the Barge service to the Olympic peninsula earlier it might have helped but even service to Seattle and Tacoma was sort of by the back door. The route from the Columbia River to Ellensburg left much to be desired and the route acros Montana and service to Spokane also left much to be desired. The route looked first class at one time but the last time I rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA their were many slow orders and weeds grew up through the track for much of the route west of South Dakota. This was a prime example of deferred maintenance and a defeatest attitude was everywhere on the old Milwaukee Road.

[passengerfan]

The Pacific extension was the downfall of the Milw Road. for the most part it was overbuilt and didn't serve the major cities like the roads that had arrived before them. The homebuilt coaches of the CMSTP&P OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA never compared to the leg-rest coaches of the UP, NP or GN Chicago - Northwest streamliners. Remember the OLMPIAN HIAWATHA withdrew from Seattle and Tacoma in 1960 two years before the Seattle worlds fair which witnessed 500,000 passengers ride the EMPIRE BUILDER and WESTERN STAR between Chicago and Seattle between April 21, 1962 and October 21, 1962. Rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA on four different occasions in Coach once, and first class the other three times. The SKYTOP Observations made it worthwhile but the coaches always reminded me of a bygone era with the wood veneer. Maybe if they had gotten rid of the Barge service to the Olympic peninsula earlier it might have helped but even service to Seattle and Tacoma was sort of by the back door. The route from the Columbia River to Ellensburg left much to be desired and the route acros Montana and service to Spokane also left much to be desired. The route looked first class at one time but the last time I rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA their were many slow orders and weeds grew up through the track for much of the route west of South Dakota. This was a prime example of deferred maintenance and a defeatest attitude was everywhere on the old Milwaukee Road.

[ValorStorm]

HOWEVER! The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!

[ValorStorm]

HOWEVER! The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!

[VerMontanan]

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

I appreciate "passengerfan"'s post, and generally agree (though the Olympian Hiawatha actually ended service west of Deer Lodge in 1961, not 1960). That MILW passenger service ended a full decade ahead of that of competition was indicative of their route which for the most part missed major population centers on their main line. Cities like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. Bellingham initially was reached via barge from Seattle; Access to Portland was only after the BN merger, and then via the circuity of the Milwaukee's own route via Tacoma, whereas BN enjoyed a river grade route through the Cascade mountains along the ex-SP&S route. The Milwaukee competed valiantly against the BN (and their own management, depending on your point of view), but in the end, their route structure, profile, and being surrounded by the BN was just too much to overcome. For instance, as BNSF today runs unit trains of grain from Great Falls to the west coast that weigh up to 16,000 tons with distributed power and no helpers via Marias Pass, I just can't imagine the resources the Milwaukee would have to use to perform the same task over its longer, hillier route.

[VerMontanan]

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

I appreciate "passengerfan"'s post, and generally agree (though the Olympian Hiawatha actually ended service west of Deer Lodge in 1961, not 1960). That MILW passenger service ended a full decade ahead of that of competition was indicative of their route which for the most part missed major population centers on their main line. Cities like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. Bellingham initially was reached via barge from Seattle; Access to Portland was only after the BN merger, and then via the circuity of the Milwaukee's own route via Tacoma, whereas BN enjoyed a river grade route through the Cascade mountains along the ex-SP&S route. The Milwaukee competed valiantly against the BN (and their own management, depending on your point of view), but in the end, their route structure, profile, and being surrounded by the BN was just too much to overcome. For instance, as BNSF today runs unit trains of grain from Great Falls to the west coast that weigh up to 16,000 tons with distributed power and no helpers via Marias Pass, I just can't imagine the resources the Milwaukee would have to use to perform the same task over its longer, hillier route.

[Anonymous]

In my mind, four Chicago-Seattle lines (UP, NP, GN, CMSt.P&P) were just too much, and somebody had to go. UP, of course, had other main lines, and so its line to Seattle was strengthened by being part of the larger, strong UP system. NP and GN, of course, were rivals, but when they merged to form BN, they strenghtened themselves to a level that the Milwaukee could not equal, but UP could. Now that MILW was much weaker, it declined and went the way of the wind.

It is my opinion that the MILW was actually in better shape than the NP. It was the only railroad of the four that reached Chicago on its own rails (NP and GN reached Chicago on CB&Q, UP on C&NW), although GN was better off because of its lesser grades. I believe that if the NP and GN had not allied themselves into a fortress which the MILW could not compete against, and if the Milwaukee had had better management (this topic is the first time I have heard of the CMSt.P&P's bad management), then it might have been the Northern Pacific to have gone, not the Milwaukee Road.

See you around the forums,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

In my mind, four Chicago-Seattle lines (UP, NP, GN, CMSt.P&P) were just too much, and somebody had to go. UP, of course, had other main lines, and so its line to Seattle was strengthened by being part of the larger, strong UP system. NP and GN, of course, were rivals, but when they merged to form BN, they strenghtened themselves to a level that the Milwaukee could not equal, but UP could. Now that MILW was much weaker, it declined and went the way of the wind.

It is my opinion that the MILW was actually in better shape than the NP. It was the only railroad of the four that reached Chicago on its own rails (NP and GN reached Chicago on CB&Q, UP on C&NW), although GN was better off because of its lesser grades. I believe that if the NP and GN had not allied themselves into a fortress which the MILW could not compete against, and if the Milwaukee had had better management (this topic is the first time I have heard of the CMSt.P&P's bad management), then it might have been the Northern Pacific to have gone, not the Milwaukee Road.

See you around the forums,
Daniel Parks

[VerMontanan]

Well, that the Milwaukee reached Chicago via its own rails (rather than via the CB&Q as GN and NP had to rely upon) was hardly a big deal when one considers that the GN and NP owned the CB&Q. It certainly never prevented Great Northern from receiving a great amount of interchange between the two roads.

I don't agree that there was a chance that, without the merger, MILW would have continued to operate, and the NP would have been abandoned. While North Dakota, Montana, and Eastern Washington really don't have any big cities, the NP served many of the biggest such that they are, like Fargo, Bismarck, Dickinson, Billings, Bozeman, Helena, Butte, Missoula, Spokane, Washington's Tri-Cities, and Yakima....all on their main line. While Butte and Missoula were on the main line of the MILW (and shared traffic with NP), major cities served by the MILW like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. That the NP line with all its online business (which continues today) would be abandoned and that the MILW line (which is largely abandoned west of Miles City) would continue seems very unlikely.

Largely touted by MILW fans is that the Pacific Extension was shorter with a better profile than the NP. A good example is Missoula to Spokane. The NP freight route (via Superior) is 286 miles, while the passenger route (via Evaro) is 258 miles. The Milwaukee route is only 238 miles. But the MILW line has a 1.7 percent grade in each direction in its assault on St. Paul Pass. NP freight trains traversed their route never pulling a grade stiffer than .8 percent. In 1960 (as an example), Milwaukee's Olympian Hiawatha was scheduled to depart Missoula at 620 PM, just about the exact time as NP's North Coast Limited at 621PM. Due to the grade and curvature of the MILW line as compared with the NP, the North Coast Limited beat the Olympian Hiawatha to Spokane by over 1 hour, 20 minutes (1038 PM vs. 1159 PM). The respective crossings of the Continental Divide in Montana (Mullan on NP, Pipestone on MILW) have similar grades. In Washington State, the MILW had by far the best crossing of the Cascades at Snoqualmie Pass (.8 westbound, 1.7 eastbound, compared to 2.2 for NP), but was "saddled" with a 2.2 westbound/1.6 percent eastbound grade over the Saddle Mountains between Lind and Ellensburg while the NP's maximum was 1 percent between these points. And, don't forget that the NP had the option of routing traffic for Portland, Vancouver, and Longview via subsidiary SP&S which cut through the mountains along the Columbia River. The MILW didn't serve Portland until after the BN merger, and even when it did, it had to haul everything to Tacoma, and then up 3 percent Tacoma Hill and then south. The MILW's biggest advantage over the NP with regard to grade is probably between Minneapolis and Three Forks. NP had numerous 1 percent grades in North Dakota, especially in the Badlands, as well as nearly a 2 percent climb over Bozeman Pass between Bozeman and Livingston. The MILW route was not absent of grades, but they were less and less frequent. However, when one considers that (1970 census) the Milwaukee served but one city with over 10,000 population between the Twin Cities Metro Area and Three Forks (Aberdeen) and the NP nine (St. Cloud, Moorhead, Fargo, Jamestown, Bismarck, Mandan, Dickinson, Billings, and Bozeman), that the NP would be significantly downgraded or abandoned seems very unlikely indeed.

[VerMontanan]

Well, that the Milwaukee reached Chicago via its own rails (rather than via the CB&Q as GN and NP had to rely upon) was hardly a big deal when one considers that the GN and NP owned the CB&Q. It certainly never prevented Great Northern from receiving a great amount of interchange between the two roads.

I don't agree that there was a chance that, without the merger, MILW would have continued to operate, and the NP would have been abandoned. While North Dakota, Montana, and Eastern Washington really don't have any big cities, the NP served many of the biggest such that they are, like Fargo, Bismarck, Dickinson, Billings, Bozeman, Helena, Butte, Missoula, Spokane, Washington's Tri-Cities, and Yakima....all on their main line. While Butte and Missoula were on the main line of the MILW (and shared traffic with NP), major cities served by the MILW like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. That the NP line with all its online business (which continues today) would be abandoned and that the MILW line (which is largely abandoned west of Miles City) would continue seems very unlikely.

Largely touted by MILW fans is that the Pacific Extension was shorter with a better profile than the NP. A good example is Missoula to Spokane. The NP freight route (via Superior) is 286 miles, while the passenger route (via Evaro) is 258 miles. The Milwaukee route is only 238 miles. But the MILW line has a 1.7 percent grade in each direction in its assault on St. Paul Pass. NP freight trains traversed their route never pulling a grade stiffer than .8 percent. In 1960 (as an example), Milwaukee's Olympian Hiawatha was scheduled to depart Missoula at 620 PM, just about the exact time as NP's North Coast Limited at 621PM. Due to the grade and curvature of the MILW line as compared with the NP, the North Coast Limited beat the Olympian Hiawatha to Spokane by over 1 hour, 20 minutes (1038 PM vs. 1159 PM). The respective crossings of the Continental Divide in Montana (Mullan on NP, Pipestone on MILW) have similar grades. In Washington State, the MILW had by far the best crossing of the Cascades at Snoqualmie Pass (.8 westbound, 1.7 eastbound, compared to 2.2 for NP), but was "saddled" with a 2.2 westbound/1.6 percent eastbound grade over the Saddle Mountains between Lind and Ellensburg while the NP's maximum was 1 percent between these points. And, don't forget that the NP had the option of routing traffic for Portland, Vancouver, and Longview via subsidiary SP&S which cut through the mountains along the Columbia River. The MILW didn't serve Portland until after the BN merger, and even when it did, it had to haul everything to Tacoma, and then up 3 percent Tacoma Hill and then south. The MILW's biggest advantage over the NP with regard to grade is probably between Minneapolis and Three Forks. NP had numerous 1 percent grades in North Dakota, especially in the Badlands, as well as nearly a 2 percent climb over Bozeman Pass between Bozeman and Livingston. The MILW route was not absent of grades, but they were less and less frequent. However, when one considers that (1970 census) the Milwaukee served but one city with over 10,000 population between the Twin Cities Metro Area and Three Forks (Aberdeen) and the NP nine (St. Cloud, Moorhead, Fargo, Jamestown, Bismarck, Mandan, Dickinson, Billings, and Bozeman), that the NP would be significantly downgraded or abandoned seems very unlikely indeed.

[Anonymous]

Dear VerMontanan (clever screen name, by the way),
After reading your post, I am forced to agree with you that the NP probably would not have been abandoned. However, as to the home rails to Chicago matter, reaching Chicago on rails owned by your company is certainly a benefit, although GN, NP, and UP (and SP, too) got along pretty well without it. However, one other aspect to consider is that rails to Chicago might have made the Milwaukee Road a more desirable target for merger into a larger system. Obviously, of course, it did not to any greatly appreciable extent. I do continue to maintain, however, that the CMSt.P&P would have been able to continue on, at least for a few more years, had the BN merger not taken place.

Sincerley,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Dear VerMontanan (clever screen name, by the way),
After reading your post, I am forced to agree with you that the NP probably would not have been abandoned. However, as to the home rails to Chicago matter, reaching Chicago on rails owned by your company is certainly a benefit, although GN, NP, and UP (and SP, too) got along pretty well without it. However, one other aspect to consider is that rails to Chicago might have made the Milwaukee Road a more desirable target for merger into a larger system. Obviously, of course, it did not to any greatly appreciable extent. I do continue to maintain, however, that the CMSt.P&P would have been able to continue on, at least for a few more years, had the BN merger not taken place.

Sincerley,
Daniel Parks