The Milwaukee Road's Collapse.

[ValorStorm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

Reading that thread four months ex post facto, I realize I didn't make any sense. I was trying to make a point about BN reducing their overhead costs and retaining capacity, while MRL would benefit from mostly overhead traffic.

As for union busting, Washington Corp was indeed a non-union entity. But MRL didn't fight the inevitable. And this was all moot considering the alternative: Same layoffs, but few rehires, because no MRL.

On a related subject, start being nice or I WILL flick a booger on your windshield.

[ValorStorm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by VerMontanan

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

Reading that thread four months ex post facto, I realize I didn't make any sense. I was trying to make a point about BN reducing their overhead costs and retaining capacity, while MRL would benefit from mostly overhead traffic.

As for union busting, Washington Corp was indeed a non-union entity. But MRL didn't fight the inevitable. And this was all moot considering the alternative: Same layoffs, but few rehires, because no MRL.

On a related subject, start being nice or I WILL flick a booger on your windshield.

[Anonymous]

I have a book called " The Nation Pays Again ", this is an excellent book ,and it talks ALL about the Milwaukee Road and its bankruptsy. I highly recommend reading it.

[Anonymous]

I have a book called " The Nation Pays Again ", this is an excellent book ,and it talks ALL about the Milwaukee Road and its bankruptsy. I highly recommend reading it.

[Anonymous]

The locos listed by espeefoamer are all post-1965 units. MILW had a large and diverse diesel roster during the 50s and early 60s, which included EMDs, F-Ms, Alcos and Baldwins. Here's a listing of several of the HO scale 50s-60s diesels offered in MILW paint and lettering in recent years:

FT; F3; F7; FP7; F9; E6; E7; E9; GP9; GP30; SD7; SD9; SW1; SW9;

H10-44; C-Liner; Erie Built;

DL-109; S-4; RS-1; RS-3; RSC-2; RSD-5;

DS-4-4-10; S-12.

Model locomotives are produced in limited runs, so several of those listed above are, or may be, out of production. Inquire at a hobby shop specializing in model railroading or search eBay's HO scale or N scale listings using the search term "Milwaukee" or "MILW".

[Anonymous]

The locos listed by espeefoamer are all post-1965 units. MILW had a large and diverse diesel roster during the 50s and early 60s, which included EMDs, F-Ms, Alcos and Baldwins. Here's a listing of several of the HO scale 50s-60s diesels offered in MILW paint and lettering in recent years:

FT; F3; F7; FP7; F9; E6; E7; E9; GP9; GP30; SD7; SD9; SW1; SW9;

H10-44; C-Liner; Erie Built;

DL-109; S-4; RS-1; RS-3; RSC-2; RSD-5;

DS-4-4-10; S-12.

Model locomotives are produced in limited runs, so several of those listed above are, or may be, out of production. Inquire at a hobby shop specializing in model railroading or search eBay's HO scale or N scale listings using the search term "Milwaukee" or "MILW".

[espeefoamer]

I ccan give a partial list of loco types.
SD40-2,SD45,FP45,GP40,MP15AC.
Most of these are available in both HO and N gauge.Hope this helps.

[espeefoamer]

I ccan give a partial list of loco types.
SD40-2,SD45,FP45,GP40,MP15AC.
Most of these are available in both HO and N gauge.Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

My father was an egineer for the Milwaukee Road in the 50's and early 60's. I want to build a model train set with engines and cars from that era. Can someone tell me what model engines were from that era and where I might be able to find some in HO and N scale? Thanks!

[Anonymous]

My father was an egineer for the Milwaukee Road in the 50's and early 60's. I want to build a model train set with engines and cars from that era. Can someone tell me what model engines were from that era and where I might be able to find some in HO and N scale? Thanks!

[jimrice4449]

Two factors to consider from each end of the timeline.
First the Pacific extension was built in record time because instead of starting from ech end it was able to build simoutaneously from a number of points by shipping building material in on the NP. Somebody should have pondered the implication of that.
Secondly the final management team came from the BN and was among the highest paid rail executives in the country at the time. I started on the Milw as an opr and personally handled a message instructing carmen to put any car that required more than $200 to repair in storage. As the ship was sinking the first siding east of St Maries Id, Omega, was plugged from switch to switch with stored box cars. At the abandonment hearing a representative from Potltch Industries testified that they had to ship hundreds of carloads of plywood by truck from St Maries to the UP at Plummer because the Milw couldn't supply box cars. Acarload of plywood at that time shipped for $5000 to $7000. Those execs were earning what they were paid.

[jimrice4449]

Two factors to consider from each end of the timeline.
First the Pacific extension was built in record time because instead of starting from ech end it was able to build simoutaneously from a number of points by shipping building material in on the NP. Somebody should have pondered the implication of that.
Secondly the final management team came from the BN and was among the highest paid rail executives in the country at the time. I started on the Milw as an opr and personally handled a message instructing carmen to put any car that required more than $200 to repair in storage. As the ship was sinking the first siding east of St Maries Id, Omega, was plugged from switch to switch with stored box cars. At the abandonment hearing a representative from Potltch Industries testified that they had to ship hundreds of carloads of plywood by truck from St Maries to the UP at Plummer because the Milw couldn't supply box cars. Acarload of plywood at that time shipped for $5000 to $7000. Those execs were earning what they were paid.

[AntonioFP45]

Lot of good information from you guys here! [C):-)][tup]

Only thing that I can add is that year back I remember a TRAINS article citing that MIlwaukee Road had too many old branch lines with light to medium usage that produced low profits. Additionally MR had a number of bridges not designed for heavy diesels. This is why Milwaukee Road used 6 axle units like the SDL39 and SD9 since the axles helped spread the weight better compared to 4 axle units.

10-4![;)]

[AntonioFP45]

Lot of good information from you guys here! [C):-)][tup]

Only thing that I can add is that year back I remember a TRAINS article citing that MIlwaukee Road had too many old branch lines with light to medium usage that produced low profits. Additionally MR had a number of bridges not designed for heavy diesels. This is why Milwaukee Road used 6 axle units like the SDL39 and SD9 since the axles helped spread the weight better compared to 4 axle units.

10-4![;)]

[Anonymous]

I have read articles which say that MILW actually was making money on the West Coast Extension at the time they chose to abandon it. Problem with keeping it in management's eyes was that they had put so much into the CNW merger that they had allowed the track to go to pot due to differed maintenance. One article stated that had the WCE remained in MILW 2, the company might have made it. Business was being turned away by the company on the extension due to the short-sightedness of it's officials. The article went on to say that the pruning should have taken place back east. After cutting off its apendage the MILW's financial situation only worsened and the final nail was driven into the coffin.

THE MONEY IS IN THE LONG HAUL.

SD

[Anonymous]

I have read articles which say that MILW actually was making money on the West Coast Extension at the time they chose to abandon it. Problem with keeping it in management's eyes was that they had put so much into the CNW merger that they had allowed the track to go to pot due to differed maintenance. One article stated that had the WCE remained in MILW 2, the company might have made it. Business was being turned away by the company on the extension due to the short-sightedness of it's officials. The article went on to say that the pruning should have taken place back east. After cutting off its apendage the MILW's financial situation only worsened and the final nail was driven into the coffin.

THE MONEY IS IN THE LONG HAUL.

SD

[Anonymous]

Dear VerMontanan (clever screen name, by the way),
After reading your post, I am forced to agree with you that the NP probably would not have been abandoned. However, as to the home rails to Chicago matter, reaching Chicago on rails owned by your company is certainly a benefit, although GN, NP, and UP (and SP, too) got along pretty well without it. However, one other aspect to consider is that rails to Chicago might have made the Milwaukee Road a more desirable target for merger into a larger system. Obviously, of course, it did not to any greatly appreciable extent. I do continue to maintain, however, that the CMSt.P&P would have been able to continue on, at least for a few more years, had the BN merger not taken place.

Sincerley,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Dear VerMontanan (clever screen name, by the way),
After reading your post, I am forced to agree with you that the NP probably would not have been abandoned. However, as to the home rails to Chicago matter, reaching Chicago on rails owned by your company is certainly a benefit, although GN, NP, and UP (and SP, too) got along pretty well without it. However, one other aspect to consider is that rails to Chicago might have made the Milwaukee Road a more desirable target for merger into a larger system. Obviously, of course, it did not to any greatly appreciable extent. I do continue to maintain, however, that the CMSt.P&P would have been able to continue on, at least for a few more years, had the BN merger not taken place.

Sincerley,
Daniel Parks

[VerMontanan]

Well, that the Milwaukee reached Chicago via its own rails (rather than via the CB&Q as GN and NP had to rely upon) was hardly a big deal when one considers that the GN and NP owned the CB&Q. It certainly never prevented Great Northern from receiving a great amount of interchange between the two roads.

I don't agree that there was a chance that, without the merger, MILW would have continued to operate, and the NP would have been abandoned. While North Dakota, Montana, and Eastern Washington really don't have any big cities, the NP served many of the biggest such that they are, like Fargo, Bismarck, Dickinson, Billings, Bozeman, Helena, Butte, Missoula, Spokane, Washington's Tri-Cities, and Yakima....all on their main line. While Butte and Missoula were on the main line of the MILW (and shared traffic with NP), major cities served by the MILW like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. That the NP line with all its online business (which continues today) would be abandoned and that the MILW line (which is largely abandoned west of Miles City) would continue seems very unlikely.

Largely touted by MILW fans is that the Pacific Extension was shorter with a better profile than the NP. A good example is Missoula to Spokane. The NP freight route (via Superior) is 286 miles, while the passenger route (via Evaro) is 258 miles. The Milwaukee route is only 238 miles. But the MILW line has a 1.7 percent grade in each direction in its assault on St. Paul Pass. NP freight trains traversed their route never pulling a grade stiffer than .8 percent. In 1960 (as an example), Milwaukee's Olympian Hiawatha was scheduled to depart Missoula at 620 PM, just about the exact time as NP's North Coast Limited at 621PM. Due to the grade and curvature of the MILW line as compared with the NP, the North Coast Limited beat the Olympian Hiawatha to Spokane by over 1 hour, 20 minutes (1038 PM vs. 1159 PM). The respective crossings of the Continental Divide in Montana (Mullan on NP, Pipestone on MILW) have similar grades. In Washington State, the MILW had by far the best crossing of the Cascades at Snoqualmie Pass (.8 westbound, 1.7 eastbound, compared to 2.2 for NP), but was "saddled" with a 2.2 westbound/1.6 percent eastbound grade over the Saddle Mountains between Lind and Ellensburg while the NP's maximum was 1 percent between these points. And, don't forget that the NP had the option of routing traffic for Portland, Vancouver, and Longview via subsidiary SP&S which cut through the mountains along the Columbia River. The MILW didn't serve Portland until after the BN merger, and even when it did, it had to haul everything to Tacoma, and then up 3 percent Tacoma Hill and then south. The MILW's biggest advantage over the NP with regard to grade is probably between Minneapolis and Three Forks. NP had numerous 1 percent grades in North Dakota, especially in the Badlands, as well as nearly a 2 percent climb over Bozeman Pass between Bozeman and Livingston. The MILW route was not absent of grades, but they were less and less frequent. However, when one considers that (1970 census) the Milwaukee served but one city with over 10,000 population between the Twin Cities Metro Area and Three Forks (Aberdeen) and the NP nine (St. Cloud, Moorhead, Fargo, Jamestown, Bismarck, Mandan, Dickinson, Billings, and Bozeman), that the NP would be significantly downgraded or abandoned seems very unlikely indeed.

[VerMontanan]

Well, that the Milwaukee reached Chicago via its own rails (rather than via the CB&Q as GN and NP had to rely upon) was hardly a big deal when one considers that the GN and NP owned the CB&Q. It certainly never prevented Great Northern from receiving a great amount of interchange between the two roads.

I don't agree that there was a chance that, without the merger, MILW would have continued to operate, and the NP would have been abandoned. While North Dakota, Montana, and Eastern Washington really don't have any big cities, the NP served many of the biggest such that they are, like Fargo, Bismarck, Dickinson, Billings, Bozeman, Helena, Butte, Missoula, Spokane, Washington's Tri-Cities, and Yakima....all on their main line. While Butte and Missoula were on the main line of the MILW (and shared traffic with NP), major cities served by the MILW like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. That the NP line with all its online business (which continues today) would be abandoned and that the MILW line (which is largely abandoned west of Miles City) would continue seems very unlikely.

Largely touted by MILW fans is that the Pacific Extension was shorter with a better profile than the NP. A good example is Missoula to Spokane. The NP freight route (via Superior) is 286 miles, while the passenger route (via Evaro) is 258 miles. The Milwaukee route is only 238 miles. But the MILW line has a 1.7 percent grade in each direction in its assault on St. Paul Pass. NP freight trains traversed their route never pulling a grade stiffer than .8 percent. In 1960 (as an example), Milwaukee's Olympian Hiawatha was scheduled to depart Missoula at 620 PM, just about the exact time as NP's North Coast Limited at 621PM. Due to the grade and curvature of the MILW line as compared with the NP, the North Coast Limited beat the Olympian Hiawatha to Spokane by over 1 hour, 20 minutes (1038 PM vs. 1159 PM). The respective crossings of the Continental Divide in Montana (Mullan on NP, Pipestone on MILW) have similar grades. In Washington State, the MILW had by far the best crossing of the Cascades at Snoqualmie Pass (.8 westbound, 1.7 eastbound, compared to 2.2 for NP), but was "saddled" with a 2.2 westbound/1.6 percent eastbound grade over the Saddle Mountains between Lind and Ellensburg while the NP's maximum was 1 percent between these points. And, don't forget that the NP had the option of routing traffic for Portland, Vancouver, and Longview via subsidiary SP&S which cut through the mountains along the Columbia River. The MILW didn't serve Portland until after the BN merger, and even when it did, it had to haul everything to Tacoma, and then up 3 percent Tacoma Hill and then south. The MILW's biggest advantage over the NP with regard to grade is probably between Minneapolis and Three Forks. NP had numerous 1 percent grades in North Dakota, especially in the Badlands, as well as nearly a 2 percent climb over Bozeman Pass between Bozeman and Livingston. The MILW route was not absent of grades, but they were less and less frequent. However, when one considers that (1970 census) the Milwaukee served but one city with over 10,000 population between the Twin Cities Metro Area and Three Forks (Aberdeen) and the NP nine (St. Cloud, Moorhead, Fargo, Jamestown, Bismarck, Mandan, Dickinson, Billings, and Bozeman), that the NP would be significantly downgraded or abandoned seems very unlikely indeed.

[Anonymous]

In my mind, four Chicago-Seattle lines (UP, NP, GN, CMSt.P&P) were just too much, and somebody had to go. UP, of course, had other main lines, and so its line to Seattle was strengthened by being part of the larger, strong UP system. NP and GN, of course, were rivals, but when they merged to form BN, they strenghtened themselves to a level that the Milwaukee could not equal, but UP could. Now that MILW was much weaker, it declined and went the way of the wind.

It is my opinion that the MILW was actually in better shape than the NP. It was the only railroad of the four that reached Chicago on its own rails (NP and GN reached Chicago on CB&Q, UP on C&NW), although GN was better off because of its lesser grades. I believe that if the NP and GN had not allied themselves into a fortress which the MILW could not compete against, and if the Milwaukee had had better management (this topic is the first time I have heard of the CMSt.P&P's bad management), then it might have been the Northern Pacific to have gone, not the Milwaukee Road.

See you around the forums,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

In my mind, four Chicago-Seattle lines (UP, NP, GN, CMSt.P&P) were just too much, and somebody had to go. UP, of course, had other main lines, and so its line to Seattle was strengthened by being part of the larger, strong UP system. NP and GN, of course, were rivals, but when they merged to form BN, they strenghtened themselves to a level that the Milwaukee could not equal, but UP could. Now that MILW was much weaker, it declined and went the way of the wind.

It is my opinion that the MILW was actually in better shape than the NP. It was the only railroad of the four that reached Chicago on its own rails (NP and GN reached Chicago on CB&Q, UP on C&NW), although GN was better off because of its lesser grades. I believe that if the NP and GN had not allied themselves into a fortress which the MILW could not compete against, and if the Milwaukee had had better management (this topic is the first time I have heard of the CMSt.P&P's bad management), then it might have been the Northern Pacific to have gone, not the Milwaukee Road.

See you around the forums,
Daniel Parks

[VerMontanan]

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

I appreciate "passengerfan"'s post, and generally agree (though the Olympian Hiawatha actually ended service west of Deer Lodge in 1961, not 1960). That MILW passenger service ended a full decade ahead of that of competition was indicative of their route which for the most part missed major population centers on their main line. Cities like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. Bellingham initially was reached via barge from Seattle; Access to Portland was only after the BN merger, and then via the circuity of the Milwaukee's own route via Tacoma, whereas BN enjoyed a river grade route through the Cascade mountains along the ex-SP&S route. The Milwaukee competed valiantly against the BN (and their own management, depending on your point of view), but in the end, their route structure, profile, and being surrounded by the BN was just too much to overcome. For instance, as BNSF today runs unit trains of grain from Great Falls to the west coast that weigh up to 16,000 tons with distributed power and no helpers via Marias Pass, I just can't imagine the resources the Milwaukee would have to use to perform the same task over its longer, hillier route.

[VerMontanan]

Valorstorm claimed:

"The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!"

And what people might these be and what evidence? Montana Rail Link was created by Burlington Northern in an effort to deal a blow to rail labor in Montana, and I don't think the BN was really interested in saving the Pacific Extension of the Milwaukee. That BN "acquiesced" to leasing their railroad is certainly an incorrect term given that it was something they truly desired to do.

I appreciate "passengerfan"'s post, and generally agree (though the Olympian Hiawatha actually ended service west of Deer Lodge in 1961, not 1960). That MILW passenger service ended a full decade ahead of that of competition was indicative of their route which for the most part missed major population centers on their main line. Cities like Great Falls, Bozeman, and Spokane were on branch lines. Bellingham initially was reached via barge from Seattle; Access to Portland was only after the BN merger, and then via the circuity of the Milwaukee's own route via Tacoma, whereas BN enjoyed a river grade route through the Cascade mountains along the ex-SP&S route. The Milwaukee competed valiantly against the BN (and their own management, depending on your point of view), but in the end, their route structure, profile, and being surrounded by the BN was just too much to overcome. For instance, as BNSF today runs unit trains of grain from Great Falls to the west coast that weigh up to 16,000 tons with distributed power and no helpers via Marias Pass, I just can't imagine the resources the Milwaukee would have to use to perform the same task over its longer, hillier route.

[ValorStorm]

HOWEVER! The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!

[ValorStorm]

HOWEVER! The rescue of the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension was the original plan of the people who would eventually create Montana Rail Link. There's evidence to suggest that that's the only reason BN acquiesced to leasing the former NP in Montana. That MRL probably would have succeeded too!

[passengerfan]

The Pacific extension was the downfall of the Milw Road. for the most part it was overbuilt and didn't serve the major cities like the roads that had arrived before them. The homebuilt coaches of the CMSTP&P OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA never compared to the leg-rest coaches of the UP, NP or GN Chicago - Northwest streamliners. Remember the OLMPIAN HIAWATHA withdrew from Seattle and Tacoma in 1960 two years before the Seattle worlds fair which witnessed 500,000 passengers ride the EMPIRE BUILDER and WESTERN STAR between Chicago and Seattle between April 21, 1962 and October 21, 1962. Rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA on four different occasions in Coach once, and first class the other three times. The SKYTOP Observations made it worthwhile but the coaches always reminded me of a bygone era with the wood veneer. Maybe if they had gotten rid of the Barge service to the Olympic peninsula earlier it might have helped but even service to Seattle and Tacoma was sort of by the back door. The route from the Columbia River to Ellensburg left much to be desired and the route acros Montana and service to Spokane also left much to be desired. The route looked first class at one time but the last time I rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA their were many slow orders and weeds grew up through the track for much of the route west of South Dakota. This was a prime example of deferred maintenance and a defeatest attitude was everywhere on the old Milwaukee Road.

[passengerfan]

The Pacific extension was the downfall of the Milw Road. for the most part it was overbuilt and didn't serve the major cities like the roads that had arrived before them. The homebuilt coaches of the CMSTP&P OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA never compared to the leg-rest coaches of the UP, NP or GN Chicago - Northwest streamliners. Remember the OLMPIAN HIAWATHA withdrew from Seattle and Tacoma in 1960 two years before the Seattle worlds fair which witnessed 500,000 passengers ride the EMPIRE BUILDER and WESTERN STAR between Chicago and Seattle between April 21, 1962 and October 21, 1962. Rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA on four different occasions in Coach once, and first class the other three times. The SKYTOP Observations made it worthwhile but the coaches always reminded me of a bygone era with the wood veneer. Maybe if they had gotten rid of the Barge service to the Olympic peninsula earlier it might have helped but even service to Seattle and Tacoma was sort of by the back door. The route from the Columbia River to Ellensburg left much to be desired and the route acros Montana and service to Spokane also left much to be desired. The route looked first class at one time but the last time I rode the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA their were many slow orders and weeds grew up through the track for much of the route west of South Dakota. This was a prime example of deferred maintenance and a defeatest attitude was everywhere on the old Milwaukee Road.

[railman]

I think the BN knew that the Milwaukee was tanking and didn't have to have an agenda to tip it.