Who Built The Highest Quality 4-8-4's?

[feltonhill]

nanaiamo73 -

There was some use of rotary cam poppet valves in Europe, but I don't have sufficient sources to give a good answer. I found at least two examples - (1) SNCF232S2 which used Lentz-Dabeg rotary cam P.V. and (2) LNER 2-8-2 #2001 which used Lentz RCPV. SNCF seemed to prefer oscillating cam PV driven by Walschaerts valve gear, or other types driven by very exotic looking gear (e.g., Cossart in the 141TC).

I have no idea what Germany and others may have done. Hope VAPEURCHAPELON will reply to your question.

Found no information regarding Franklin Ry Supply's involvement in the European market.

[feltonhill]

To those fans of 4449 I recommend two items in Trains magazine from her early Freedom Train days in the mid-1970's. The first was a column by D. P. Morgan in the November 1976 issue, pp3-6. The second, a full length article by Bill Withuhn in the June 1977 issue, uses various estimating methods to answer the article's title, Did This Engine Equal 2-1/2 E8's on August 29, 1976?

Parts of this run were recorded for the album, Extra 4449 North (may be on CD now, havn't been able to locate it) She put on quite a show over Southern's line south of Manassas! Side B has 23 minutes of in-cab action, three days earlier, where a max speed of 78 mph is reached (from album notes). Vicarious thrills for those of us who weren't there!

[jlampke]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockymidlandrr

Alco and Lima built the best. The UP super 800s and the SP Gs-4 should be plenty of evidence of who built the best. The 844 and the 4449 are the best examples of the respective classes. The 844 has never been retired, now that is craftmanship!

There's no doubt they are great 4-8-4's.The fact is I first posted the question hoping for reinforcement of my bias towards 4449. It has been said in this discussion that all 4-8-4's were great, and I like to think that is the case. Regarding 844 staying in service all these years, I think a huge amount of the credit for that is due to the efforts of Steve Lee and his fine crew. The UP should get some credit for that too.... They could've done like the SP and so many other railroads and just tossed everything to scrap. Thank God the city of Portland asked for a GS locomotive. We wouldn't have 4449 today.

I read that the boys in Southern CA did a first-class job of restoring 3751, and am looking forward to seeing 2926 on the road again. Pretty sure the Baldwin fans would have a thing or two to say about who made the best 4-8-4's!!!!

All 4-8-4's are great locomotives. I just hope they are all receiving some degree of care and preservation. Has anyone seen the others lately?

When 4449 was put on display in Oaks Park in 1958, I'll bet nobody really believed she would one day be put back into service. Who knows what the future holds for the remaining 4-8-4's on display and in storage in North America?

I'll admit though that I am partial to SP's Lima-built GS locomotives.....

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by timz

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

if you had any backround in Mechinacal Engineering, which it is painfully obvious you don't, you could duduce the improvements in the [C&O] J3a combustion chamber along with the steam circut efficiency from Lima's engineering data alone.

Tell us more about Lima's engineering data.

I would love to read 200 or 300 words of your wisdom.
Teach us something, GP40-2.

I'd love to, but my M.S.M.E. from MIT didn't include a certificate to teach Special Needs students. Contact your local grade school for enrollment in their Learning Disabilities Program.

We quite understand you don't feel able to teach. Just give us the data.

[rockymidlandrr]

Alco and Lima built the best. The UP super 800s and the SP Gs-4 should be plenty of evidence of who built the best. The 844 and the 4449 are the best examples of the respective classes. The 844 has never been retired, now that is craftmanship!

[nanaimo73]

feltonhill, VAPEURCHAPELON;
Did the rotary-cam popet valve see a lot of use in Europe ?
Was Franklin involved at all ?

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: John: One thing I noticed is that there didn't seem to be as much graffiti as in the States. Is it because:
1) Mexican kids have more respect for other people's property, ....

Nah, trust me, it's not that.

QUOTE: 3) In Mexico, when caught destroying someone else's property, they are dealt
with swiftly and in a manner that dissuades any inclination to repeat the
offense.

Caught?? They actually catch people down here??? Double nah. Very marginal effectiveness of local police. At least that's mho.

Mexico has its fair share of graffiti, trust me. The only thing that might make it less prevalent than up north (if it is, in fact any less prevalent) would be less spare money in the pockets of the kids, and higher cost spray paint.


Another idea on the quotes. Using the button is fine, but it will quote the entire post, which may be more than you really need. You can type in the quote tags

before the quoted section, then cut and paste what you want to quote, then close with

. Note - leave out the extra space that I put inside the square brackets. I did that to avoid having the forum software think that I was actually trying to quote. Did I confuse you enough?

Regards

Ed

[Anonymous]

John, thanks for the info....that's good to hear about the work going on those old gals.

From what little I know about steam locos from having worked at Tweetsie RR in Blowing Rock, NC back in the mid '70's with the track shows (cowboy/indian), there is a lot of man hours involved to just maintaining the engines. Engines #12 and engine #190 (both narrow-guage) were completely overhauled with boilers re-tubed, etc. back in 1999 and 2000 respectively.

In the fall of 1974 on a Sunday morning after 2 yrs of constant asking (every 2-3 weeks), Hardin Coffey, #2 head engineer, let me give #190 2 short toots, put here 'in gear', release the brakes, spin the drivers once and slowly throttle her out of the station (with customers in tow). Across the trestle and to the first track show (bandit hold up). I'll never forget that....the feel of her, the power, with my hand on the throttle and blowing that whistle and actually stopping her. Hardin said with a smile as I stepped off the cab and into 'the show': "Get the f off my train....I like this job and I don't need a bit of competition!"

I had to make a trip in as track boss to drop of payroll numbers....I was cowboyed up that day (playing the Indian Scout) and saved the gold and the sherrif from those mean ol bandits.[C):-)]

Funny thing, picture this today.....when playing cowboy, we (16 to 21 yr olds) signed out real, riffled, single-action 45LC Colt Peacemankers w/ holsters and then picked up the blanks. They don't use guns in the track shows anymore for a more PC world.[:(]

That's why I asked GUNNS about the schedule for 2926. Though, they only work 2 days a week for that project, I was still curious, because it took a year plus for each narrow-guage engine to get re-worked with a full-time staff working year yound. Can't exactly go to NAPPA and order the parts.[%-)]

Guess 'the best' 4-8-4 discussion will never be settled. Guess it's like the Big 3 in autos: Some models were very good and some weren't worth the effort to shovel the coal. Anyway, most of them served this nation well.

[jlampke]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlampke


How do you post these quotes here?

John

Just click on the quote box at the top of the post you want to quote.

This site has a lot of pictures from Mexico.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locationList.aspx?Level=3&ID=MX

I looked at the site. Heck of a lot of pictures there.... Thanks. One thing I noticed is that there didn't seem to be as much graffiti as in the States. Is it because:

1) Mexican kids have more respect for other people's property, or,

2) The idiotic pea-brained bleeding-heart liberals aren't in Mexico applauding
trashy, destructive vandalism, or,

3) In Mexico, when caught destroying someone else's property, they are dealt
with swiftly and in a manner that dissuades any inclination to repeat the
offense.

Ed: What do you think?

Next question: Did any of the 4-8-4's ever use steam assisted atomization in their fuel oil burners?

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlampke


How do you post these quotes here?

John

Just click on the quote box at the top of the post you want to quote.

This site has a lot of pictures from Mexico.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locationList.aspx?Level=3&ID=MX

[jlampke]

Ed: I'll keep an open mind here.....

Ron: As near as I've been able to figure out so far, it looks like there are four 4-8-4's being restored to operational condition in the U.S. at this time as follows:

2912 in CO (Does anyone here know anyone involved in that project?)

2926 in NM (Many thanks for keeping us updated, Gunns!)

4500 in OK (Any word on this one?)

3028 in PA (Thanks for the info and the references to the sites.)

How do you post these quotes here?

John

[GP40-2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by timz

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

if you had any backround in Mechinacal Engineering, which it is painfully obvious you don't, you could duduce the improvements in the [C&O] J3a combustion chamber along with the steam circut efficiency from Lima's engineering data alone.

Tell us more about Lima's engineering data.

I would love to read 200 or 300 words of your wisdom.
Teach us something, GP40-2.

I'd love to, but my M.S.M.E. from MIT didn't include a certificate to teach Special Needs students. Contact your local grade school for enrollment in their Learning Disabilities Program.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Gunns, for the link to your (and many others) restoration pictures. That has got to be a true work of love to bring back AT&SF 2926 to operational status. Time and patience work wonders when mixed with steady effort.

I've bookmarked the site and hope you keep us updated. When do you expect to have 2926 chuffing? End of next year? Hopefully, she'll make ATSF 3751 a little jealous once finished. [^]

I hope there are some steam cerified train engineers that are passing down their knowledge to others so kids can still experience the thrill for decades to come.

Though the initial goals are to get her fully restored, maybe she'll be able to make an excursion or 2 every other year or so as a means to help acquire revenue for the loco and the museum. Would it not help keep her 'checked out' if BNSF and other rail lines would donate track access to allow her to run?

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: jlampke: The following is also from the site you referenced above: Most locomotives of the 4-8-4 wheel configuration were known as "Northerns", however, these N. de M. engines were called "Niagaras", after their prototypes, the mammoth post war New York central 4-8-4s.

That answers my question as to which U.S. 4-8-4's they were similar to.

I'm not so sure that it does. Other than having the same wheel arrangement, the locos weren't very similar. NdeM Niagaras had 70" drivers, weighed 370,000 lbs, and had 57,000 lbs of tractive effort. The NYC Niagaras were much bigger with 79" drivers, weighing 471,000 lbs, and having 61,500 lbs of tractive effort.

According to Matthew Herson in his book NdeM in Color, NdeM officials were visiting the Alco plant while the NYC Niagaras were being built, and simply adopted the name after being impressed by the NYC locomotives.

I think you may need to continue your search for a more similar example.

Regards

Ed

[Anonymous]

Good Mornig to all....

I'm new to the site (< 1 month) and I really enjoy reading the discussion about the steamers. Just have started to get back into running model trains since I was 10. That's over 35 yrs of 'off the controls' and I've started back with Lionel steamers at this point for my temporary layouts. There's a lot to learn about those little toy trains and it's fun.

Regardless of opinions across this great nation, the one thing I think we can all agree on is that those old smoke bellowing, coal burning, 4-8-4's and the rest of the steamers carried the people, the raw materials, the frieght and the finished goods that allowed the USA to eventually defeat Germany and Japan in WWII.[tup]

For that, we owe all those who made that happen on our railroads across this nation and preserving as many as the steamers we can is well worth the effort. Hope there will be a few more completely operational before too long.

I just hope in the near future I can manage to take a ride on one of those ol' girls. There's just something about the smell, the sound and the size of locos like the 4-8-4's that's intriguing.

Thanks for all the links and the info.

Happy Steaming!![8D]

[feltonhill]

VAPEURCHAPELON,

Thanks for the references!

I have Vol. 1 of the Collardey/Rasserie book (241P, 240P, 150P), but none of those you cited. Vol. 2 may be the easiest to get since it's available through La Vie du Rail, and they still take credit cards. Otherwise the bank fees cost as much as the item ordered!

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

feltonhill,

here are a few more sources I recommend trying to find:

1.: "Les Mountain de l'est"
ISBN: 0986-6663

This is a special released as 4/97-98 from the monthly released "Le Train".

2.: "Les cahiers CHAPELON"
ISSN: 0152-8084

This is a small but very detailed (about 20 pages) with his works and his influences not only to trains.

3.: "Les locomotives a vapeur unifees" (2) from Bernard Collardey and Andre Rasserie.
ISBN: 2-902 808-02X
released in 2002

In this book you will find a 41page chapter containing 160 A1 and 242 A1 - but mostly the latter. This book also contains a large chapter about the De Caso's 232types.


All these unfortunately are written in french but with a dictionary one can work with them.

Greetings from

VAPEURCHAPELON

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

if you had any backround in Mechinacal Engineering, which it is painfully obvious you don't, you could duduce the improvements in the [C&O] J3a combustion chamber along with the steam circut efficiency from Lima's engineering data alone.

Tell us more about Lima's engineering data.

[jlampke]

Ed: VERY interesting! Thank you! It would be fantastic to see it operational and in regular service. Also, what a good move by the Great North Eastern Railroad Foundation, acquiring it and storing it out of the weather all these years. It must be in pretty good material condition. It's always good to hear of one that wasn't sitting out in the rain going to rust. I wonder if anyone has any pictures they can post here of it being towed back in '94?

The following is also from the site you referenced above:

Most locomotives of the 4-8-4 wheel configuration were known as "Northerns", however, these N. de M. engines were called "Niagaras", after their prototypes, the mammoth post war New York central 4-8-4s.

That answers my question as to which U.S. 4-8-4's they were similar to.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: Why do you think they chose to restore it instead of one of the U.S. 4-8-4's sitting around?

Here's a blurb from the New Hope & Ivyland website that refers to the loco:

In 1966, after 20 years of service on the N de M., Engine 3028 was acquired by the Great North Eastern Railroad Foundation and returned to its "birthplace" of Schenectady, New York. It was the intention of the Foundation to restore this locomotive to operation and display it as an example of the ultimate in design and construction of the great American Locomotive Company. For almost 30 years, the Foundation carefully preserved and stored the engine, out of the weather, in the former Delaware & Hudson shops at Colonie, New York.

In November 1994, the Great North Eastern Railroad Foundation entered into a long term rental agreement with the New Hope and Ivyland Rail Road, which allowed Locomotive 3028 to be moved from Colonie, New York to the New Hope and Ivyland Rail Road at New Hope, Pennsylvania. The agreement calls for Locomotive 3028 to be restored to full operating condition at the New Hope shop. It will then be placed into regular operating service on the New Hope and Ivyland Rail Road.

website: http://www.newhoperailroad.com/history-steamloco.cfm


Regards

Ed

[jlampke]

Ed: Real nice pictures. Thanks. They look like they're pretty well preserved. I don't know much about most of the 4-8-4's in the States. That's why I'm here asking questions. With that in mind, I couldn't really say which U.S. 4-8-4's they are most alike. Maybe someone else reading this can tell us.

Dale, Feltonhill: Regarding 3028, that's good news, and thanks for the picture.
When is it expected to be operational? Why do you think they chose to restore it instead of one of the U.S. 4-8-4's sitting around?

[nanaimo73]

This is a picture of 3028, not much to look at.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=196674

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: No. 3028 is/was under restoration at the New Hope and Ivyland.

Glad to hear that. A number of old steam locos from down here eventually found their way north to tourist railroads. I'm not sure if my fellow railfans down here are aware of that, no one has ever mentioned it. I'll pass that info on. Thanks.

Here are a couple of shots of the two I have seen down here. Sorry that the quality of the pictures isn't that great, I couldn't get to the sunny side of the loco to take a shot.

Here are two views of 3034 at the National Railrod Museum in Puebla.





And one shot of the 3038 in Mexico City.




I'm not much for technical details, but I'm led to believe they had 70" drivers, weighed 370,000 lbs, and had 57,000 lbs of tractive effort. Could be wrong.

Regards

Ed

[feltonhill]

Re: QR-1's

No. 3028 is/was under restoration at the New Hope and Ivyland.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: According to this site........ The QR-1 3034 at the National Museum of Mexican Railroads is operational.

That's one I've seen up close and personal. I don't believe it is, although it might require relatively minimal work to make operational.

QUOTE: The picture looks like it's in good shape.

It does appear to be. I saw it last two months ago.

QUOTE: Do you happen to know which U.S. 4-8-4's they are most like in appearance and performance?

I'm not familiar enough with general 4-8-4 characteristics to say. But give me a few hours and I'll post a picture and you can decide.

QUOTE: Were the Alcos and the Baldwins to the same specs?

As far as I know they were identical.


Regards

Ed

[jlampke]

Ed: Thanks for the info. 11 out of 32 preserved.... that's pretty good. Hats off to NdeM!! Wouldn't it have been great if 1/3 of the 1126 or so 4-8-4's that ran on U.S. rails had been saved from the scrap yard? I sure wish SP 4458 and 4459 (equipped with roller bearings) hadn't been tossed out like so much junk.

According to this site: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?4-8-4

The QR-1 3034 at the National Museum of Mexican Railroads is operational. The picture looks like it's in good shape.

Do you happen to know which U.S. 4-8-4's they are most like in appearance and performance? Were the Alcos and the Baldwins to the same specs?

[GP40-2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by feltonhill

GP40-2 -

On 9/20/05 you posted:

“ There are several references from Lima and the C&O that indicated the changes to the J3a's boilers (which make them look somewhat smaller on paper) actually optimized the combustion efficiency, and greatly increased the boiler ability to absorb the BTU's from the firebox (whose efficiency was increased from the eariler versions also).”

and

"There is Lima and C&O documentation that the J3a's were much more optimized than the original versions."


On 9/21/05 I made the request:

"Do you recall the source for the steam circuit and exhaust nozzle optimization comments? .....I’d like to read what it said. "

In spite of my imperfect wording a month ago, again I would like to know, what are your sources?

The C&O Historical Society has a number of documents on the J3a design...seek and you shall find.

Second, if you had any backround in Mechinacal Engineering, which it is painfully obvious you don't, you could duduce the improvements in the J3a combustion chamber along with the steam circut efficiency from Lima's engineering data alone.

Like I said, you don't understand thermodynamics, and you especially don't understand fluid mechanics, which plays a larger role in steam locomotive power development anyway.

Your not even an a M.E., yet you come on this board professing to be a "locomotive expert". Unbelievable!

[feltonhill]

to VAPEURCHAPELON

I would like to know more about the information you have found on the Chapelon 242A1. I have the Chapelon’s book La Locomotive a Vapeur (translated by G. W. Carpenter) which also contains additional material as Addenda to the 1952 Edition starting at pg 565. I have an idea you may have read the original book, something I’ve not been able to lay my hands on up to now, and probably couldn't read very well anyway. Chapelon's version of French is not for amateurs like me! I mention this because the English edition has more information that the original book apparently did, and you may be interested in reading it. It looks like the 2-12-0 was included in the translation from pgs 454 to 461 including several cross sectional views and a cut-away elevation.

I would also agree that the Rogers book is a very worthwhile additional source of information on this unique loco. I found a copy at a very reasonable price in a used book store. The only other information I have that you and others may want to see is in The Concise Encyclopedia of World Railway Locomotives by P. Ransome-Wallis (pgs343-344) where the author includes a very short paragraph on the 242A1 as well as comparative specifications between that and the SNCF 241P, 232U, 231E, 141P and 150P.

All of the empirical work I’ve done is with US steam power, and it is not in any way comparable to the French developments, so I don’t have any additional information beyond what you have already posted. Thanks for bringing this up. I look forward to more (at least a little bit more??!!) information on this remarkable 4-8-4.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: jlampke: How about the 4-8-4's that are South of the U.S.? Who built them? What is type QR-1? Has anyone seen any of them? I heard one is operational.

In 1946 NdeM ordered 32 Niagaras, the last steam purchased by the railroad. 16 were built by Alco (#’s 3025-3032 and 3049-3056), and 16 were built by Baldwin (#’s 3033-3048). Because of their size they were pretty much limited to the main line run between Mexico City and the border. They remained in operation into the 60’s.

Of these, 11 are still preserved on display. I’ve seen two, one at the Museum of Technology in Mexico City and one at the National Railroad Museum in Puebla. As far as I know, none of the 11 is currently in operational condition.

QR-1 was just the NdeM class designation for them. GR was the Consolidation class (with sub-class numbers indicating tractive effort), KR’s were Mikados, MR’s were Pacifics, NR’s were Hudsons, PR’s were Mastodons (4-8-0).



Regards

Ed

[feltonhill]

GP40-2 -

On 9/20/05 you posted:

“ There are several references from Lima and the C&O that indicated the changes to the J3a's boilers (which make them look somewhat smaller on paper) actually optimized the combustion efficiency, and greatly increased the boiler ability to absorb the BTU's from the firebox (whose efficiency was increased from the eariler versions also).”

and

"There is Lima and C&O documentation that the J3a's were much more optimized than the original versions."


On 9/21/05 I made the request:

"Do you recall the source for the steam circuit and exhaust nozzle optimization comments? .....I’d like to read what it said. "

In spite of my imperfect wording a month ago, again I would like to know, what are your sources?