Who Built The Highest Quality 4-8-4's?

[Anonymous]

One of the few times in this hobbyI was honestly wondering if I had chosen the right spot to train watch. In hind sight, it was THE place to be!
At the time, though, I was sure having second thoughts! (grins)

Regards! Michaelson

[feltonhill]

Michaelson,

You're right, can the numbers, forget the debate. When you experience something like 611 (or fill in your favorite 4-8-4) going past at 85, shaking the ground and blowing your hat off, that's real power!! Who needs all the talk? Thanks for the great description!!

[Anonymous]

I've enjoyed reading through this string. I think comparing the N&W J class to the others here, though is an apples to oranges comparison, as the J class WAS home built, specifically designed for the terrain it was to run, and therefore overdesigned when compared to standard Northern classes built by the likes of Alco, Baldwin et. al that were tailored from railroad order to railroad order to the needs of that particular road. N&W had a mission for the J from the drawing board to the delivery of #600.

On a personal note, one of the most terrifying experiences I ever had was with number 611 outside of Lucasville Ohio in the summer of 1986. I had heard on my car radio it was on the Columbus run, heading south (east bound by Scioto Divison rules) for Portsmouth. I turned off route 23 onto Cook road and parked my car. No one was around, and I could hear 611 whistle for the Lucasville crossing about 1 mile from where I was sitting. The N&W is a double track mainline through this area, and I was sitting on an old unused concrete signal base on the opposite of the southbound track. I could suddenly see the headlight of the J round the curve coming out of Lucasville, whistling for the last crossing in that small town, and it was MOVING!!! I suddenly realized I could feel a strong vibration through the concrete I was sitting on, and the J with all 15 cars of the N&W passenger consist it usually pulled came at and past me like a monster unleashed. The ground absolutely shook like an earthquake, and the engineer was working the whistle for the Cook road crossing like the pro he was. My hat was actually blown off my head! It took only a matter of seconds for the entire train to pass me!
What I learned later from my next door neighbor, an Ohio Highway Patrolman who was sitting on the other side of Route 23, was the J was running late (according to the radio reports he had on his Patrol radio), and the dispatcher had given permission to highball along the straightaway from Lucasville to the Roosemount overpass...a straight run of about 7 miles. My neighbor had positioned his patrol car to use his radar to see how fast the train would pass, and said at the location I was sitting, the J was doing 85+ and accelerating to 90 before finally cutting speed for the overpass 6 miles past the point I was sitting. Once again, that was with 15 fully loaded heavyweight N&W passenger cars, and they regularily pulled these trains with the same consist over the mountains at 75+ mph!
No WONDER the ground was shaking!!!!
So, it's one thing to debate the numbers.....but when you have a Northern pass within 30 feet of you at that kind of speed, there are no question in one's mind what your favorite Northern is. (I even have had an experience with the T-1 when it was pulling the Chessie passenger train to Covington before being destroyed in the roundhouse fire, but that's another story.....(grins))
Regards! Michaelson

[Anonymous]

GN S-2 Northerns

[Anonymous]

I was lucky enough to pace Milwaukee Road 261 at track speed a couple years ago in central MN, while video taping. She is a beauty!!! My favorite though would have to be the S-1Class Great Northern. My uncle fired on those, and there's just something about those green boiler covers.
Greg

[k41361]

John, That is the E-mail address he had in 2004.He may have changed it .I think he was getting some mean messages from some and may have changed it for that reason.

Happy New Year to you also and everyone.
Terry P.

[Anonymous]

I like the ALCO coal-burning 4-8-4's. The ROCK ISLAND had some of the first 4-8-4's in the country (built in the 1920's) The RI also had the largest fleet of 4-8-4's (coal and oil burning)

[jlampke]

Terry; I tried to contact Ross Rowland at the address you gave above, but it came back as an invalid e-mail address.
Would you mind double-checking for me?
Thanks, and Happy New Year, John

[daveklepper]

The economy of larger drivers rather than the starting tractive effort and better mountain climbing ability of smaller ones may be a good point. I guess it comes down to what terrain the railroad crosses, and possibly both the smaller N&W and the larger SP drivers were both appropriate for their applications.

[feltonhill]

For a recent assessment of 4449's performance, check the June 1977 issue of Trains, p23-27. Bill Withuhn analyses its performance running between Culpeper and Manassas on 8/29/76 where it reached just shy of 80 mph with 1425 tons. He notes that the 5500 hp cited by SP is not specified as to type (indicated or drawbar).. His estimates of cylinder/indicated hp at 80 mph during the run range from 4900 to 5850. His estimate of drawbar HP required is based on train resistance, and ranges from 3200 to 4050 DBHP. He also estimates that it takes between 1700 and 1800 hp just to move the engine and tender at 80 mph. It would seem the 5500 hp (unspecified) in Mr. Church's book would more likely be indicated rather than drawbar.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

I am not certain 80-inch drivers are necessary the high point of the SP design. The N&W J could also reach 110 mph with smaller drivers _but excellent counterbalancing and lightweight rods.

Since this keeps coming up, what about the economics of running smaller drivers at high speed on extended runs, both in terms of fuel usage and maintenance? Except for the ruling grades on a district, locomotives don't spend all of their time running at maximum output. In one example I read, NYC tested a Niagra with 75" drivers vs. one with 79", the smaller drivers did produce slightly more starting TE, but the fuel economy was much better with the 79s. SP GS2's had 73" drivers, but they went to 80's on the later classes, while increasing the TE with other changes.

[daveklepper]

I am not certain 80-inch drivers are necessary the high point of the SP design. The N&W J could also reach 110 mph with smaller drivers _but excellent counterbalancing and lightweight rods.

[jlampke]

Dale; Thanks for the info. Nice view of 3045 there. I looked at all the other pictures too, thanks. Looking at steamlocomotive.com, I see there are 11 surviving 4-8-4's in Mexico. [tup]

Happy New Year. John

[nanaimo73]

John-
You may be interested in this shot of a Mexican 4-8-4. The thing sticking up just ahead of the stack is a smoke light. Several railroads used these on their oil burners so the fireman could adjust the fire at night.(click on it to enlarge)

This link has several pictures of Mexican steam-
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr308.htm

[jlampke]

Terry; Thanks for the contact info for Ross Rowland. The man's a legend.

I highly recommend this book;
Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives, by Robert J. Church.
Lots of technical and historic information on all of SP's GS locomotives, and
hundreds of great pictures. It's really a fantastic book.

In chapter 7 he states;

" The GS-4 & GS-5 class 4-8-4's represented the high mark in Southern Pacific passenger locomotive design. These engines combined 80-inch drivers, boiler pressure of 300 lbs. per square inch, and a small cylinder diameter, providing additional speed and power to the original design. They developed 5,500 horsepower at 55 miles per hour and were counterbalanced and cross-balanced for a maximum speed of 110 miles per hour."

I'm sure each class of 4-8-4 had it's advantages. It is noteworthy that most of the guys who favor one class of 4-8-4 over the other are usually voting for the "home team", so to speak. Also, I don't believe that just because one railroad or the other continued to build
steam engines years after most of the other railroads had abandoned steam, makes theirs the best. From a steam locomotive enthusiast's point of view, it's great that there were railroads that held on to steam as long as they did, but that doesn't mean for a second that they built the best 4-8-4's. It just means they were slower to appreciate that steam's days were over.

It could be said that if it weren't for Ross Rowland's enthusiasm for the idea of a Bicentennial Freedom Train, 4449 might still be rusting away in Oaks Park.

He's definitely an American hero, in my book.

John

[Anonymous]

NYC's niagra clss was the most economic, N&W's J's were the most powerful & the baldwin gs-4's were the fastest (mmy personal estimate)

[Anonymous]

I'll throw my hat in for the C&O J3a's and the UP FEF-3s. Northerns are cool, but I'll take a Pere Marquette N1a class 2-8-4 Berkshire any day.

[k41361]

jlampke,the website says only railfan.It says it is maintained by Wowak with WebBBS 4.33.But I did get the Ross Rowlands website in that exchange.It looks like<[e-mail]>
The date of our exchange was Feb. 23,2004.
I always loved the S.P. GS4.Where did you get the info on their 5000 dbhp?I loved those cabforwards also. Would like to know their dbhp.Don't think they got the recognition they deserved as being one of the great ones.

Terry P.

[jlampke]

k41361; Thanks for the input. What site is it that you were communicating with Ross Rowland on?
It seems like I read that SP's GS-4's & GS-5's were capable of up to 110 mph, and that they were (at much lower speeds) able to develop 5000 dbhp in tests done by the SP.
I'd have to look, but I think I read that in one of Robert Church's books.
John

[k41361]

I asked Rowland on another website how much drawbar hp the 614 developed and he told me somewhere around 3900 to 4100 dbhp.
For freight,three locomotives overlooked are the Milwaukee Rd S2 class,the MP 2200's and the D&RGW 1800's.The Milw S2 developed much more HP than th (261)S3.These were all designed by Baldwin and are very similar to each other in design and specs.I have read that it was thought they could develop 5000 DBHP.Neve tested though.
For passenger service,in fairly level territory,I know it's not a true 4-8-4 but the PRR T-1 had unbelievable potential that never had a chance to get developed.There is an issue in the PRR historical society of these running 125, 130, and was once timed at a 140 by a Franklin company that made ,I believe valves for the T1,because they couldn't understand why they were breaking down on the T-1's.They found out real quick.Don't have the figures in front of me but the T-1 developed more DBHP than the Niagara at 100 mph and the difference was greater the faster they went.Of course the Niagara was supperior up to 85 mph.
Terry P.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mac 4884

Nyc niagras were butt ugly but were more econimicaly cheap & cleaner than the diesels of it's time.

In order for those of us who are reading this thread to accept your statement, it would be good of you to offer a bit more substance. Your butt-ugly characterization stands on its own as a subjective evaluation, but your assertion that it was more economical and cleaner could use heaps more empirical evidence.

To help you to see what I mean, I would wonder how a diesel burning a ton of diesel fuel an hour would produce more pollutants than a 4-8-4 burning 6-12 tons of coal an hour? In the absence of an definitive information to the contrary, I an inclined to disagree with you.

[Anonymous]

Nyc niagras were butt ugly but were more econimicaly cheap & cleaner than the diesels of it's time.

[jlampke]

Ron: Thanks for the story. If I have my way, I'll get a ride in the cab of 4449 in
time. [tup]

feltonhill, Dale: I looked at Trains' site. Like Ed said, it doesn't look like they have the issues you recommended. So I called Paul Gibson at Railpub. He had what I wanted. I ordered 6-74, 11-76, 6-77 & 10-84. Thanks for the tip. [tup]

up829: As far as I know, the GS-2's and the GS-3's pulled more or less the same duty on the Coast Route, Sunset & San Joaquin runs until the GS-4's came along. After that, some GS-2's were permanently assigned to the Shasta and Overland Routes, and painted black. The GS-2's were the first to lose their skirting as a class. Interesting to note that 4415 was the last GS-2 to be scrapped. [:(] 6-3-59. My birthday. [bday]

Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives by Robert J. Church is very informative, lots of great pictures and fun to read. Highly Recommended. [tup]

[daveklepper]

I still think the N&W designed and built the best steamers and this includes the J for the 4-8-4's.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: Does Trains magazine sell back issues that old?

They sell issues back into the 70's but it appears thatthey don't have either of the two issues that feltonhill mentioned.
http://store.yahoo.net/kalmbachcatalog/railroading-trains-magazine-back-issues-1977-1979.html



Regards

Ed

[timz]

QUOTE: I did't say I wasn't able to teach college level adults with the proper math and science prereqs. I said I am not certified to teach Special Needs students like yourself.

Now that you mention it, I do seem to recall some people being prosecuted for not having the proper certification. The details have slipped my mind, but I'm sure you're right-- you can't be too careful.

[nanaimo73]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlampke

Does Trains magazine sell back issues that old?

John,
This company sells used magazines, but I don't know what kind of shape they are in.
http://www.railpub.com/

You may be interested in the October 1984 issue, which had a 8 page article on 4449 going to New Orleans followed by this article-
"4-8-0s to Mallets to Jawn Henry
Trains, October 1984 page 34
motive power development on Norfolk & Western
( N&W, "POND, C. E.", STEAM, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN ) "

This article is about what could have been built in 1945 with existing technology to go against diesels.
"Did we scrap steam too soon?
Trains, June 1974 page 36
Nothing is so romantic as a lost cause
( STEAM, TECHNOLOGY, "WITHUHN, BILL", ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN ) "

Have you ever used the index ?
http://index.mrmag.com/

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jlampke

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockymidlandrr

Alco and Lima built the best. The UP super 800s and the SP Gs-4 should be plenty of evidence of who built the best. The 844 and the 4449 are the best examples of the respective classes. The 844 has never been retired, now that is craftmanship!

There's no doubt they are great 4-8-4's.The fact is I first posted the question hoping for reinforcement of my bias towards 4449. It has been said in this discussion that all 4-8-4's were great, and I like to think that is the case. Regarding 844 staying in service all these years, I think a huge amount of the credit for that is due to the efforts of Steve Lee and his fine crew. The UP should get some credit for that too.... They could've done like the SP and so many other railroads and just tossed everything to scrap. Thank God the city of Portland asked for a GS locomotive. We wouldn't have 4449 today.

I read that the boys in Southern CA did a first-class job of restoring 3751, and am looking forward to seeing 2926 on the road again. Pretty sure the Baldwin fans would have a thing or two to say about who made the best 4-8-4's!!!!

All 4-8-4's are great locomotives. I just hope they are all receiving some degree of care and preservation. Has anyone seen the others lately?

When 4449 was put on display in Oaks Park in 1958, I'll bet nobody really believed she would one day be put back into service. Who knows what the future holds for the remaining 4-8-4's on display and in storage in North America?

I'll admit though that I am partial to SP's Lima-built GS locomotives.....

A recent PBS show on the Daylights claimed some portions of the run were upgraded for 120mph speeds. The 80" drivered GS3's went into service pretty quickly after the 73" drivered GS2's and the show mentioned that SP swapped locos rather than stop for water and fuel. So I'm guessing they used the older GS2's on the tougher parts of the run or for double heading, while running the GS3's at Acela-like speeds. Was that the case or were the GS2's assigned to other trains?

[jlampke]

Ron, Ed, et al:

If you haven't already, go to: www.steamlocomotive.com

It's a fantastic site. LOTS of info on steam locomotives. When you open it up, go to surviving steam locomotives, then down toward the bottom go to wheel arrangement,
then whatever you're interested in. There are some pictures, other info, historical and current known status of various classes and specific steam and some other locomotives and builders. The guy that put it together did a superb job. Highly recommended.

feltonhill: Thanks for the tip. Does Trains magazine sell back issues that old?

[GP40-2]

QUOTE: Originally posted by timz

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

QUOTE: Originally posted by timz

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

if you had any backround in Mechinacal Engineering, which it is painfully obvious you don't, you could duduce the improvements in the [C&O] J3a combustion chamber along with the steam circut efficiency from Lima's engineering data alone.

Tell us more about Lima's engineering data.

I would love to read 200 or 300 words of your wisdom.
Teach us something, GP40-2.

I'd love to, but my M.S.M.E. from MIT didn't include a certificate to teach Special Needs students. Contact your local grade school for enrollment in their Learning Disabilities Program.

We quite understand you don't feel able to teach. Just give us the data.

Now, now be careful with your words. I did't say I wasn't able to teach college level adults with the proper math and science prereqs. I said I am not certified to teach Special Needs students like yourself.

Actually, why should I bother? I'm am having plenty of amusement watching you guys hack through something you really don't understand.