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Fateful Trip , passengers of Destiny.

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:59 AM

daveklepper

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection?  Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where?  And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

 
Yes, the photo is from the Father Browne collection.
 
No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.
 
Peter
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:47 AM

daveklepper
And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

There is actually one of those 'how to...' videos from the Fifties on YouTube that tells how to start and run early versions of these railcars; it contains a number of detail views of the powerplants and gearboxes as installed.

Here's the introduction:

Note that on this type (I believe these were Derby lightweights), the engines are 'bus engines' but run flat (as on a number of American buses, and on RDCs).  This is different from a 'pancake' or horizontally-opposed 'boxer' engine design.  Note the "BUT" on the control gear; this was a joint venture between AEG and Leyland.

Here's the section dealing with faults that shows what to do with some of the 'very expensive' equipment under the car...

Note the 'other type' of railcar at about 34:00 - is this a Metropolitan-Cammell?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:15 AM

I should add, however, that I have never seen an umbrella opened in a train or transit vehicle for use as a sunshade.

I have seen one opened in a bus once and in a railroad coach once.  But I have to admit it was not rain through a leaky roof in either case but a leaky air-conditioning system.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:05 AM

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection?  Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where?  And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:27 AM

daveklepper

And here's a New Diesel railcar with a leaky roof!

I think the driver is indeed beyond a window, a glazed partition between the cab and the  first class passenger compartment.

The railcar in question is:

These appear to be the CIE version of the AEC railcars built for the Great Northern Railway of Ireland shortly after WWII. A feature of the GNRI cars was the glazed partition at the cab end, which provided a view ahead at the leading end and an observation saloon at the rear. These were interesting mechanically, with the diesel engines and transmissions mounted on each side, one side driving the forward truck and the other side the rear truck. The final drives were like those on a Shay locomotive but only the two inner axles were driven. Two power cars could haul two trailer cars.

And I favour the sunshade theory of the umbrella.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 3:39 AM

In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt.  But there is one exception:

The photo from the website:

The modification I would like:

Can you understand why?  I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image.  But the picture is a great one.  Does my modification loose any of its greatness?  Comments requested.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 2:24 AM

I like the idea that he was a steam fan and took the picture becauses of a leaky roof.  And what you think is the left edge of the a window is clearly a pole within the car body.  Look at the fillet ar rhe top of the pole and compare with fillet at the right side of the window, which is indeed the reverse of the real left side of the window.

This was a post-WWII diesel railcar, amd the operatpr would not be outside.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, April 4, 2020 10:22 PM

I guessed the lady had the umbrella for shade from the sun coming in on that side.  The gentleman in front of her (the operator?) seems to be on the outside of the window.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 4, 2020 8:40 PM

With that first shot it looks like Father Browne was ahead of his time, most railfan photographers back then didn't bother with 3/4 back end shots.  This one looks good!

That lady with the umbrella!  "Adapt, improvise, and overcome!"

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 3, 2020 5:52 AM

Here is 409:

And here's a New Doesel railcar with a leaky roof!

 

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, April 2, 2020 9:22 AM

daveklepper

The Father Frank Browne (SJ) files are even more interesting than the Titanic files!  There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains.  Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:

The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944.

Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.

 

The 400s were built for the Great Southern and Western Railway and were mainly used on the trains on the main line between Dublin and Cork. 400 was built in 1916 and was based on the English Great Western Railway Star class, a superheated four cylinder simple. Four were built by the GSWR workshops at Inchicore and six by Armsrong Whitworth in England, apart from 400, between 1921 and 1923.

They were a disappointment in their original form and 400, 404 and 408 were scrapped by 1930. The others were rebuilt with two cylinders, 401,402 and 406 having 28" stroke but the others retained the 26" stroke from the four cylinder design. 401 and 406 had Caprotti poppet valves, but 401 was rebuilt with piston valves. A number were rebuilt with larger boilers.

The railways in Ireland were amalgamated in November 1924.

Since the GSWR was the largest system in the merger, GSWR locomotives maintained their numbers on the GSR, and later on the CIE.

Peter

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, April 2, 2020 8:36 AM

WOW!

Father Browne's rail pictures probably call for a book of their own!

"Railfanning With Father Browne."  There you go!  

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:10 AM

The Father Frank Browne S. J. files are even more interesting than the Titanic files!  There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains.  Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:

The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944.

Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:37 PM

Hard Question to answer. The music director chose music that was not well known but extremely high quality, usually including combinations of organ and instruments and chorus.

The following email was received yesterday, and when have a few more moments to spare I will go back and make the corrections:

On 3/31/20, Edwin davison <info@davisonphoto.com> wrote:
> Many thanks for the information, much of which we would know. If I could ask
> for a couple of further corrections, when you mention Father Browne would
> you please append SJ after his name to signify the order. Also the web
> information for this images is at www.titanicphotographs.com and
www.fatherbrowne.com
>
> Edwin Davison

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 6:26 PM

David, those must have been some great concerts for you to travel all the way from New York to Bryn Mawr, even if you got two train rides along with them! 

What was more fun, the concerts or the train rides?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 1:43 AM

I should have noted that Rich Allman's church is approximately across a street from the ex-PRR Bryn Mawr station on SEPTA's ex-PRR Paoli and now Downingtown and hopefully Lancaster or even Harrisburg line, and has an excellent organ and an outstanding music program including evening concerts.  I did at times travel from New York and back specifically for concerts.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:51 PM

Flintlock76
it could have been a lot worse.

You said a mouthful brother! 

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:41 PM

Thanks for the figures Becky!  2,208 souls in total.  I'll have to reference my figures more carefully next time.

The scary thing is considering the maximum capacity of the ship it could have been a lot worse.   

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, March 30, 2020 8:34 PM

2,208 total.  324 in 1st, 284 in 2nd and 709 in 3rd for a total of 1,317 passerngers and 891 crew.  That of course doesn't count those who crossed in utero like John Jacob Astor VI and several others born to women survivors less than 9 months after April 14, 1912.

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:26 PM

How lucky Dr. Mutch and his family were!  There were eight clergymen on the Titanic,  three Catholic, five Protestant, and all lost.  Of course they were, they were men of God doing what they could to provide comfort and hope to those left on board.  Dr. Mutch, and we could assume Father Browne (had he stayed on board) would have made ten lost.  

I'm assuming Dr. Mutch and his family would have been traveling Second Class, neither First Class or Third Class (Steerage) were sold out.  Titanic  had 2,200 passengers on board, the maximum capacity was around 3,000.  

Thanks for passing that on David!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, March 30, 2020 12:25 PM

deleted

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 30, 2020 6:16 AM
On Sunday, March 29, 2020, 10:41:32 PM GMT+3, Richard Allman <allmanr@verizon.net> wrote:
 
 
Another Titanic anecdote, David:
 
Our church, Bryn Mawr Presbyterian where you much later than 1912 were an acoustics consultant, like many large Presbyterian churches at that time, decided to hire a pastor from Scotland, which was the historic home of Presbyterianism. There was no email or even regular phone service and all of the negotiations were carried out with written correspondence. Finally, the Elders decided on the Rev. Dr. Andrew Mutch and called him to their pulpit in late 1911.
 
They knew he would need time to sever his ties with his prior call and to ready is family for the Transatlantic move. Dr. Mutch agreed that his last Sunday in his prior church would be Easter Sunday, April 7, 1912, after which he and his family would begin their journey to Bryn Mawr. They packed, did their farewells and booked passage on Titanic.
 
When they arrived at Southampton, the Mutch family was informed that due to overbooking, they could not be accommodated and were booked on a different ship several days later. Their arrival was delayed by several days and one Sunday, but Dr. Mutch served as senior pastor from 1912 until 1936 when he retired, He lived until 1962, an additional 50 years from what would have been his near-certain death.
 
His daughter, Ada Mutch became a nurse and director of nursing at Lankenau Hospital where my wife trained and worked. Ada retired in the 1970’s, having also been a US Army nurse in World War 2. Ada died in 2012, one week before what would have been her 107th birthday, somewhat frail but totally with it mentally to end of her life. The Mutch family do not count as Titanic survivors but they come close!
RICH
 

 
 
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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 29, 2020 10:20 PM

Here is Father Browne's photo of the Titanic departing from Ireland:

The Book, A Dedicated Life, Father Frank Browne's biography, with photos, is published by Yale Univeristy Press, costs 50 dollars, and is available from Amazon.  The authors are the Davison Brothers, who also are responsible for the preservation and cataloging of Father Browne's negatives, and can be reached at info@davisonphoto.com.  But for the specific photos on this thread, go to www.titanicphotographs.com and
www.fatherbrowne.com
>

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, March 29, 2020 10:32 AM

That really is a great effort!  Thanks David!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:43 AM

daveklepper

I've attepted to correct the double-expsure of the Marconi (Wireless) room.  First the photo with only contrast and shading processing, as posted ealier, then an attempt to correct the double-exposure.  Your comments are welcome.

Great effort! Thanks for that!

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 29, 2020 5:01 AM

I've attepted to correct the double-expsure of the Marconi (Wireless) room.  First the photo with only contrast and shading processing, as posted ealier, then an attempt to correct the double-exposure.  Your comments are welcome.

 

 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, March 26, 2020 12:04 PM

David and all--  The Father Browne story has been fixed. I initially missed page 2 and submitted page 3 twice. If you go back you can now read it correctly.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, March 26, 2020 11:14 AM

I found an interesting short history of "The Boat Train" in Titanic's  time.  Have fun, everyone!

http://www.turniprail.blogspot.com/2012/04/titanic-and-london-and-south-western.html  

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, March 26, 2020 10:45 AM

I probably screwed it up...I'll update and fix, just give me a bit of time, swamped here at the moment. Darn!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, March 26, 2020 9:23 AM

Nice work on those photos David!

And it does look like some of those documents are incomplete, but not a catastrophe.  

That distinguished looking gentleman on the left of the second photo?  For years it was thought to be John Jacob Astor, who was lost on the Titanic,  however Astor didn't get on the ship until it stopped in Cherbourg.

Turns out to be a "Close, but no cigar!" situation.  The man is an Astor, but a cousin to John Jacob named William Waldorf Astor, husband of Nancy Astor, who moved to Britain in 1890.  He was there just to see some friends off on the train.

Father Browne almost threw away that photo of the wireless room since it was a double-exposure, (I wonder what he said when when the shot was devloped?  Probably something nasty but not blasphemous!) but when he found out it was the only photo of the wireless room he kept it anyway.   Titanic's  wireless equipment was the most modern and up-to-date of it's time.  It had a guaranteed range of 350 during the day, but could acually reach 500 miles, and a 1,000 mile range at night.  

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