Flight of the Century

[Firelock76]

During world War Two the RF&P was running up to 105 trains per day on the line from Richmond to Washington.  Simply mind-boggling.

Which is why RF&P veterans snicker when CSX moans about Amtrak trains on the old RF&P and why it's a pain and it interferes with freight operations and yada, yada, yada.

"Gee," the old RF&P crowd says, "WE never had a problem!"

[Miningman]

wjstix--What is really needed are some real accounts and stories of the Railroads role during WWII. There is much to be told regarding this effort just on an operations and human effort level. The backshops, the station agents, the dispatchers, and on and on it goes. Maybe the time has come to find out about some of the more secret things that went on. It truly was an unbelievable effort that was sustained for years and all without the aid of today's modern communications and technologies.

Endless P70 coaches at Horseshoe, train after train after train over the CASO 24/7, .. what kind of effort behind the scenes in organization and repairs and manpower did this take? How did they keep this all up, all the time, for years? 

Just getting the enourmous quantites of coal for locomotives properly distributed everywhere would be mind boggling alone. By the time it was delivered you needed more and yesterday. 

[wjstix]

Miningman

OK, thanks Balt, makes sense. Still a heck of a thing to put it all together. Quite admirable. 

With the Empire Builder running in multiple sections and several other passenger trains as well, how on earth did the freight get through? Obviously it must and did, it was wartime. Busy freight everywhere. 

Long way on a transcon route, not like its just one train and thats it...there must have been 3 seperate Empire Builders, as in Mon Lv, Tues Lv, Wed Lv, all in multiple sections on the rails simulataneously.

Thats a lot of locomotives, engineers, fireman, conductors, cooks and Porters...and thats just one train. No computers either, towermen and station agents on the wire a lot. Those guys and gals had more mojo than us, ...can you imagine the whining today..."Oh sorry, I'm going rock climbing next week". 

 

 

There were some differences between the Empire Builder and the 20th Century. The Builder went twice as many miles, through a territory that was sparsely populated. During WW2, I'd guess maybe 60% of the US population lived in states served by the NYC System. True, NYC had a four-track mainline, but NYC had like 11 different passenger trains between New York and Chicago alone, not to mention intermediate trains, whereas I believe only the Builder and Fast Mail went over the entire GN, with a few shorter distance trains.

 

Also, unlike the Century, the Builder always had coaches. In fact, on a busy day, it wasn't unusual for one section of the train to be just coaches, with another section being all sleepers. It also wasn't unusual from what I've read that you might have a fast freight operating as a section of the Builder.

 

GN was a bit obsessive about all the cars in the Builder saying "EMPIRE BUILDER" on the letterboard. They used to 'stash' Empire Builder cars on other GN trains as kind of a reserve. You might see a 5-car Badger Express (Twin Cities - Twin Ports local) with a coach lettered "EMPIRE BUILDER" one day that might the next day be called on to run in that day's Empire Builder if needed. (BTW, during WW2, the Badger and Gopher used A-B sets of FT diesels, while the Builder and most other GN trains were still steam powered.)

[Overmod]

But in a jar put up by Felicity,
The summer which maybe never was
Has been captured and preserved.
And when we unscrew the lid
And slice off a piece
And let it linger on our tongue:
Unicorns become possible again.

(From ‘Reflections on a Gift of Watermelon Pickle’ by John Tobias)

[daveklepper]

Doesn't seem like anything an Israeli Yeshiva cook, party caaterer, or even a top-line gourmet restaourant would attempt!  Good to have the memories, though.

However, one of my dreams is a two-hour train trip behind restored steam with coaches rebuilt to resemble historic wagon-lits dining cars, lunch and dinner, one each way, between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv via the very scenic existing old line.

Might be the venue to introduce the dish locally.

And Miningman, chicken was definitely on the dinner menue, but it was not Southern Fried.  If I remember correctly, it was something akin to the "Sweet and Sour" that is usual in a Manderin Chinese restaurant, but not exactly and named something else.  There was no lunch menu.  The train did not operate during lunch time.

There was a dinner club that had arrangements with the Central to ride the Century Grand Central to Albany and then back to New York on the pick-up sleeper that spent half the night in the Albany Station.  There was one member of the club, forget his name, very wealthy, who was a fellow guest of Richard Horstmnn on several of his Lehigh Valley 353 trips where I also accepted the invitation.

[Overmod]

daveklepper

Most of all, I recall the Century's specialty, pickled and candied watermelon rind, something I never ate anywhere but in the 20th Century dining car. 

The old New York families of my acquaintance used this the way the French use sorbet, to ‘cleanse the palate’ between courses of other flavors.  I will look to see if I can find the precise spices used by NYC (probably including cloves, cinnamon, allspice and ginger).

My grandmother had the pickling ‘side’ of preparation down: it’s similar to iced tea in that every step of it needs to be prechilled, and nothing made of metal can even touch the stuff at any time once it’s in the ‘bath’.  It takes a LOT of time to work in order to be right.  The candying is done by sugar that is predissolved in the pickling brine before it’s chilled down to be applied, and it takes about a week and a half at close-to-freezing temperature for a batch to be ready.  I suspect the procedure for the NYC commissary will turn out to be little different.

BTW, the same approach, either with vinegar or sugar pickle, on VERY finely sliced cucumber (get your microtome out!) is one of the very best things you can serve...  

[daveklepper]

I never did "enjoy" Lobster Newburg on the Century.  Riding was before my Kosher vegetrian days, however, and I did enjoy roast beef medium rare, and steak medium rare, and French Toast for breakfast and pancakes.  Most of all, I recall the Century's specialty, pickled and candied watermellor rind, something I never ate anywhere but in the 20th Century dining car.  I don't remember whether it was served as a desert or as part of the salad or both.

Anyone able to answer?

[wanswheel]

 

http://www.gettyimages.com/license/525046228

https://archive.org/stream/delmonicocookboo00filiiala#page/204/mode/2up

[Overmod]

Family servants in the houses I knew were treated with respect and friendship, for the most part, and I think this is the sense that Mr. Klepper meant.

The definitive Newburg recipe is the one from Delmonico’s with the caviar.  Remember that around this time America, more precisely the south New Jersey area, was a major ‘caviar center’ to the world, so there was a plentiful source of very fresh caviar cheap, especially that otherwise relegated to ‘pressed caviar’.  One thing that I do that is different from ‘history’ is that instead of killing the lobsters quickly as described in the recipe (which is otherwise essential to preserve the quality of the meat) I put them in sherry and ‘anesthetize them to death’ - if you like lobster you will find the result tastier than the usual boiling or scalding them alive.

There are also some trace spices that accentuate a good Newburg — fresh nutmeg for one — and you may want to experiment.  I found Sandemans Royal Esmeralda to be ideal, and it was reintroduced to the market a few years ago, so you should be able to find it.

The dish is always spelled ‘Newburg’ and I put little credence in the stories about the feud with Wemberg and the Delmonicos reversing  the name, as they already show deep lack of knowledge about the dish by misspelling the name as if to fit.  It may be this same cohort of foons that are responsible for the loss of the true Delmonico-steak recipe, one of the ghastliest losses to history known to the Western tradition.  The true approach is irreversibly lost under the sea of butter...

[Miningman]

I've never had Lobster Newburg (or Newberg) and now it's high time, besides I need to celebrate the end of gruelling Mid Terms. I've done so much marking this Semester over weekends and evenings that my eyes are going to fall out if I do one more.

I will dream about the Century, remember the New York Central in it's heyday and finest and lament all that is lost but I shall eat well doing so.

More than likely they had a fried chicken offering on the menu, maybe lunch and dinner but not in a bucket. Chicken back then was the real deal too...farm fresh. 

[Penny Trains]

I'm more of a "Kentucky Fried something-or-another" kind of girl. 

[Miningman]

"   I think their attitude toward porters and waiters was similar to that of their family servants in their homes."-- Dave Klepper

I would think that's a pretty wide spectrum of attitudes but I think I know what you mean. As in " know your place" Civil but dismissive. 

Well being a lowly Geologist/Mining Engineer with no blue blood lines and no family servants at home I'm beginning to think they wouldn't even sell me a ticket and if they did I'd probably screw things up! 

I'm making Lobster Newburg at home this weekend. All inspired now. Hope I don't screw that up. Can I do Oysters Rockefeller as a happy-tizer or is that too much. Go all out Big Apple!  Have a fine vintage quite dusty wine I've been waiting for an excuse to come along. 

Will post the results. 

 

[daveklepper]

My impression from the times I rode 1959 on, to the introduction of Empire Service and the combination of all overnight east-west service into one Albany - Buffalo train, that passengers were generally polite generous people, most regular users of the service.  I was not bashful about striking up conversations in the dining car.  Nearly all people I met were older and wealthier.  I think their attitude toward porters and waiters was similar to that of their family servants in their homes.

[Overmod]

The New York Central ‘official’ lobster Newburg recipe is available online, and you will find that it is considerably simplified from the Delmonico’s version, in my opinion to make it more straightforward to make well in a diner galley.

https://books.google.com/books?id=wfHPhP0HLLEC&pg=PA363&lpg=PA363&dq=new+york+central+lobster+newburg&source=bl&ots=MQ55fiuodt&sig=fsv-ZOClhzJp-Q0A9E2PIXqH3bk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTkPjIt7_XAhVq5oMKHefUBlU4ChDoAQgkMAA#v=onepage&q=new%20york%20central%20lobster%20newburg&f=false

For want of a working mobile interface, here is the link I used; you will have to use the ‘previous mention’ control to get to the actual recipe but it is there.

I have looked over a couple of ‘commissary’ instructions and reprints, and they are all relatively simple... if you want ‘complicated’, look at the Pullman instructions for serving drinks to passengers!

I certainly hope you’re right about the attitude of Century clientele towards the train personnel.  But I suspect their response to anything less than ‘perfect’ service would not be pleasant to observe, and the likely result for the staff might be quick discipline or dismissal. 

[Miningman]

Well OK thanks for easing the stress! I've read 2 recipes, one the original from the 1880's and Martha Stewart's both of which are complex. Then I've read at least 4 other recipes that seem far more  simple as you say.  

 If the New York Central has an effective recipe then so be it. Still significant quality items needed. Had to be a tough gig serving Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner menus to what was probably quite a demanding clientele.  

I like to think the folks were classier back then, were gracious,  and didn't act like a bunch of unhappy ingrates. 

[Penny Trains]

Pullman kitchen:

Not a millimeter of unutilized space.  However I couldn't date this image at it's source so it could be the 38 lightweight equipment.

[Overmod]

Miningman

Cannot seem to shake out of my head "How in tarnation do you make Lobster Newburg" on the Century or any train for that matter..

Actually, according to the NYC recipe and directions, it is surprisingly easy.  Once you know how, and have the right quality ingredients.  I too thought it was an involved and painstaking thing like making Hollandaise without curdling — but the official version (which I do think we have to accept as what was actually served) is remarkably simple.

[Miningman]

Cannot seem to shake out of my head "How in tarnation do you make Lobster Newburg" on the Century or any train for that matter.. it requires multiple steps and some spreadin' out space to put it all together. A lot of "stuff" to make it happen. 

These guys were beyond amazing. Unbelievable what we can accomplish. 

[BaltACD]

Miningman

OK, thanks Balt, makes sense. Still a heck of a thing to put it all together. Quite admirable. 

With the Empire Builder running in multiple sections and several other passenger trains as well, how on earth did the freight get through? Obviously it must and did, it was wartime. Busy freight everywhere. 

Long way on a transcon route, not like its just one train and thats it...there must have been 3 seperate Empire Builders, as in Mon Lv, Tues Lv, Wed Lv, all in multiple sections on the rails simulataneously.

Thats a lot of locomotives, engineers, fireman, conductors, cooks and Porters...and thats just one train. No computers either, towermen and station agents on the wire a lot. Those guys and gals had more mojo than us, ...can you imagine the whining today..."Oh sorry, I'm going rock climbing next week". 

I am not saying that is wan't a big accomplishment - it was HUGE - just something from our vantage point of 70 years+ later we can't quite understand the coordination and management that it took to pull it all off (I can't say flawlessly - because in any form of transportation - stuff happens).  Not just once, but day after day, month after month, year after year.

[Miningman]

OK, thanks Balt, makes sense. Still a heck of a thing to put it all together. Quite admirable. 

With the Empire Builder running in multiple sections and several other passenger trains as well, how on earth did the freight get through? Obviously it must and did, it was wartime. Busy freight everywhere. 

Long way on a transcon route, not like its just one train and thats it...there must have been 3 seperate Empire Builders, as in Mon Lv, Tues Lv, Wed Lv, all in multiple sections on the rails simulataneously.

Thats a lot of locomotives, engineers, fireman, conductors, cooks and Porters...and thats just one train. No computers either, towermen and station agents on the wire a lot. Those guys and gals had more mojo than us, ...can you imagine the whining today..."Oh sorry, I'm going rock climbing next week". 

[Deggesty]

And, with the large pool of available sleepers, there was little, if any, problem with building additional sections of trains.

[BaltACD]

Miningman

Yes I've read of the famous 7 sections to the Century, but how the heck did they find the personnel to staff this. There was special training and standards for the Century. Also, locomotives, engineers and fireman and non Pullman equipment.

Now 7 sections of the Empire Builder during WWII is stunning....how did they pull that off, personnel and equipment wise, not to mention that the Great Northern was not a 4 track dedicated passenger and freight only mains. That's well over an hour of track time for what is really just one train on the timetable. How do you logistically put together all that coal, locomotives, commissary food, the list goes on and on not to mention run a viable railroad in the meantime. 

I really wish we had some good war time accounts of the nitty gritty of the Herculean and stellar effort achieved by the railroads during WWII, not the usual pap about ladies wiping down the locomotives stuff. There was a lot lot more to it by everyone involved,. 

Companies up through the middle to late 1970's didn't control their manpower as closely as they do these days (not having to guarantee Extra Boards a living wage, helped in keeping many people on the boards - just thirsting for work).  With the advent of computers and job guarantees companies have slashed their workforces to at or slightly below the number of employees they actually need.  Under the 'old ways' of handling manpower is was relatively easy to come up with sufficient qualified bodies (did I mention that the HOS for operating personnel was 16 hours then, instead of 12 today - as has been mentioned in another thread, enforcement of laws in times gone by was not as strident as it is these days.  So under these conditions, staffing for extra sections was generally available; also with advance reservations it would be known, well in advance, when these extra sections would be required.

[Miningman]

Yes I've read of the famous 7 sections to the Century, but how the heck did they find the personnel to staff this. There was special training and standards for the Century. Also, locomotives, engineers and fireman and non Pullman equipment.

Now 7 sections of the Empire Builder during WWII is stunning....how did they pull that off, personnel and equipment wise, not to mention that the Great Northern was not a 4 track dedicated passenger and freight only mains. That's well over an hour of track time for what is really just one train on the timetable. How do you logistically put together all that coal, locomotives, commissary food, the list goes on and on not to mention run a viable railroad in the meantime. 

I really wish we had some good war time accounts of the nitty gritty of the Herculean and stellar effort achieved by the railroads during WWII, not the usual pap about ladies wiping down the locomotives stuff. There was a lot lot more to it by everyone involved,. 

[timz]

Guess maybe the two sections could depart GCT together and run side by side for some miles, and they could arrive GCT side by side, but if they both stopped Englewood would look pretty silly for the two sections to arrive Chicago together. First one would have to dawdle along, waiting for the second.

[daveklepper]

When the Century was a heavyweight train, extra sections could be made up by simply drawing on the Pullman pool.  Once it became a lightweight streamliner, there were occasions when a second section was operated, but no more than one second section.  Whereas I read that on one day in the 1920s seven sections were run Chicago - NYC-GCT.

[wjstix]

It would seem odd to me to have a second section running at the same time as the first. Running multiple sections was usually done at 10 min. intervals. During the heyday of passenger travel, multiple sections were pretty normal. The Commodore Vanderbilt had a section that left early so often that it eventually became it's own train - the Advance Commodore Vanderbilt. Not sure about the 20th Century, but I know during WW2 Great Northern's Empire Builder sometimes ran in seven full sections.

[Penny Trains]

Overmod

They wanted the meal, the amenities, a good night's sleep, a reliable arrival the next morning.

And the chance to be in a movie wasn't so bad either.  Especially a talkie! 

[Overmod]

BaltACD

As a part of real world railroading, it is preposterous.

Thoroughly agreed.  But how many of the people riding that train actually cared about the real-world railroading 'behind the scenes'?  They wanted the meal, the amenities, a good night's sleep, a reliable arrival the next morning.  All the things we find interesting or nostalgic they would have regarded as just 'the means'.

[BaltACD]

Overmod

 

BaltACD

One thing I thought was overly pretentious - the 2 Sections of the train, on adjacent tracks both departing down the platform together 'On Time'. 

Actually, I can see this -- even support it -- as a piece of customer-relations theatre.  Who would want to see a 'better' section of this expensive premier train beating their train out of the station?  Better to have the sections 'leave' together, then take up some sequential order once safely in the dark under Park Avenue.

More to the point: have the sections ostentatiously ARRIVE together on parallel tracks, so the underlying service premise -- that there's just one huge Twentieth Century Limited that has to be split only for operation, but departs from and arrives at its termini 'on the advertised' -- can be supported there, too.

You wouldn't need this on the 'lesser' Great Steel Fleet trains, or the ones that ran in multiple sections as close as the signals would permit as far into the terminal plant as possible.  But for the Century?  I can see it.  (And the two trains could share one red carpet...)

As a part of theatre I understand it.  As a part of real world railroading, it is preposterous.

[Overmod]

BaltACD

One thing I thought was overly pretentious - the 2 Sections of the train, on adjacent tracks both departing down the platform together 'On Time'.

Actually, I can see this -- even support it -- as a piece of customer-relations theatre.  Who would want to see a 'better' section of this expensive premier train beating their train out of the station?  Better to have the sections 'leave' together, then take up some sequential order once safely in the dark under Park Avenue.

More to the point: have the sections ostentatiously ARRIVE together on parallel tracks, so the underlying service premise -- that there's just one huge Twentieth Century Limited that has to be split only for operation, but departs from and arrives at its termini 'on the advertised' -- can be supported there, too.

You wouldn't need this on the 'lesser' Great Steel Fleet trains, or the ones that ran in multiple sections as close as the signals would permit as far into the terminal plant as possible.  But for the Century?  I can see it.  (And the two trains could share one red carpet...)