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Third Avenue Lightweight Streetcars

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 27, 2022 1:44 PM

Again, you are absolutely correct.  the proof is the direction of 85th Street one-way street sign in those photos that show it, since the street is.westbound  Such evidence trumps my memory, despte my having been in the location possibly a thousand times, using the 84th Street 3rd Avenue Elevated station, and the Third Avenue Transit "T" as well as put-in "Ks." But seldom, if ever, after 1949.

My parents and I also frequented two excelent restaurants (one may have been Kosher) east of 3rd on 86th.

Please post the photo with the elevated train with the clock, both here and on one on Third Avenre Elevated threads.   (photo you sent, with now some mild editin)

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:01 PM

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 6, 2022 7:37 AM

I see have not yetv replied to Joseph Frank's claim that there never any streetcar tracks joining the main "A: New-Rochelle - Subwazy Line where Broadway becomes Pelhamdale Avenue in Oelham.

I based my analysis on cojmparing the ERA's 1945 Yonkers-and-adjacent-areas Third Avenue Trackmap, and a street map of the areas.  By the time the map was prepared, the single diverging track was already disused, ditto in my 1947 photo.   This track had already lost its wire, and paving-over removed any evidence of a former single-track streetcar line.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 6, 2022 7:53 AM

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 6, 2022 6:14 PM

On Current maps Pelhamdale Ave if it was called that,  dead ends at the high embankment of the former NYW&B Port Chester Branch along 1st Street.  And ends there.  Going SOUTH from the NYW&B -- Pelhamdale Avenue CROSSES what is called COLONIAL AVENUE which becomes SANFORD BLVD. just past, (left, west of), the Hutchinson River Parkway.  Sanford Blvd continues due west and crosses over the NYW&B E.6th Street Station after Sanford crosses S. Fulton Ave. in Mt. Vernon.

Pelhamdale Avenue crosses COLONIAL AVE (aka Sanford Blvd further west) and heads at a S/E slight angle curve down to cross US 1 and soon the New England  Thruway - and ends at a T intersection at Pelham Road right off the LI Sound  and Glen Island Park.

Colonial Avenue - if you drive thru it in Pelham in N/E direction from Sanford Blvd, - does not have any commercial real estate as seen that corner seen in your TARS "A" Route Car # 324 photo you wrote was at 163rd St & Westchester Avenue, Bronx. (very wrong there, Dave, as I proved via my cleaner edited version of that photo below:  https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52244446625_52657a0ab0_b.jpg

And the slight "tilt" of the original photo you keep incessantly bringing up, has absolutely NO relevance or bearing what so ever as to determining the route or location of that curved track to the right -- or what it was for !!

The old TARS MAP shows, not in proper full near scale length (more as a greatly compressed length) or perspective -- we see a set of dotted lines coming off what is upon the TARS map then called  Main Street -(Colonial Ave on present maps) - into a street called Drake and then down to PELAHM (Road?) and to Glen Island.  That dotted line set means long ago gone, abandoned tracks. There IS NO Drake street, whatever, on the present maps !!

My original purpose was to prove false, that your original and dogged assumption that the TARS # 324 "A" Route car was at E. 163rd & Westchester Ave, Bronx. In using current street roads by Google Inter-active Maps..."driving / moving" N/E along Sanford Blvd  to Colonial Ave., which becomes Kings Highway and crosses under the New England Thruway and ends at MAIN STREET which is US 1 and not the MAIN STREET shown on the TARS map.  SO either the TARS map is drawn sloppily or partially flawed in its depiction or whatever.  !

Follow the roads I named above -- as they appear on the current map  (interactive Google version you can move around on is LINKED HERE -- https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pelhamdale+Ave+%26+1st+St,+Village+of+Pelham,+NY+10803/@40.8928721,-73.8434444,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c28d6d6d91dd7b:0x4e14c84980bbd783!8m2!3d40.9094435!4d-73.8078286?hl=en    -----  and SEE what I am writing about. According to street views presently -- there was no indication of trolley tracks / line on Pelhamdale down to Glen Island -- or on Colonial Ave. to Kings Highway.  And there was no where that your corner retail stores scene with the TARS 324 trolley, could be found on any of those current streets (Sandford, Colonial, Sanford or Pelhamdale) because they are all highly residential lined only.  So exactly WHERE that TARS 324 Car photo is / was taken that you provided (and I edit-fixed from your poorer edited version) - God only knows !  regards - Joe F   

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 6, 2022 7:48 PM

1.  Current conditions are not necessarily the same with regard to commercial development in 1947.   Ditto. other conditions.

2.  In 1947, the A Westechester Avenuec Line. was operated exclusively by convertables, and not by home-built Third Avenue Lightweights until late in the year, when ex--Manhattan 101-200 series began replacing the convertables.

3.  324, in the photo I took, was always a Westchester car, and did not run on routes mainly serving The Bronx.

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 6, 2022 10:17 PM

So a reader can do a detailed analysis of his or her own on the difference between the (admittadly blurrey) A New-Rochell Subway sign and an A Westchester Avenue sign, here posted at Westchester Avenue and Pelham Bay Park:

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, October 7, 2022 12:40 AM

Here is one of the ex-Manhattan cars that replaced the convertables on Westchester Avenue.  But I failed to remove the tilt here, and thus preserved the sharpness.  There is no way you can fit Westchester Avenue into the blurred image of the A sign on 324.  Only New  Rochelle - Subway fits 324's sign

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Friday, October 7, 2022 3:12 PM

Great Photo dave - and no really one cares about the very slight tilt -- but the SHARPNESS is the most important detail!!   Its looking due N/E on Westchester Avenue near Bergen Avenue - and the RKO Royal Theater I well remember from the 1950's & 60's until later closed down due to crime. McCrorys at left is a 5&10 store which goes left to the corner of 3rd Ave & Westchester Avenue where this 3 block short "connector" 2-track El which connects from the IRT Subway West Farms El (2 blocks to right) with the Bronx 3rd Ave EL at E.150th Street / Westchester Avenue Junction  1/2 block left, west ...just above the 3rd Ave EL's E. 149th Street express station. the trolley will pass along to the left, west,  under the EL, cross that switch there, stop, unload and reload new passengers,  and take the swich track seen for the trolley's reverse move run to get to the uptown / outbound track.

 

 

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, October 8, 2022 12:09 PM

Thanks.  There were five 301s that did regularly handle a primarily Bronx route, the Ogden Avenue Line that had both its 155th Street and Amsterdam Avenue  and 181st and Broadway Terminals in Manhattan, but 324 was never one of them.  And occasionaslly one of the "O" cars  would stray to one of the other Bronx lines before being moved to be based  primarily at the Foot-of-Main-Street, Yonkers, Carhouse, to assist getting convertables replaced with lightweights on the Mt. Vernon - 229th St. White Plains Avenue (Road) "B" line.

Then there were  391 - 400, which were built as conduit-only cars, and ran on Manhattan's "T," "K," and in Spring 1947 on 125th "X."  These got poles, Summer 1947, and some did run The Bronx  routes before moving to Yonkers in Spring and Summer 1948.

Here is 381, one of the Ogden Avenue cars, northbound at the north end of Ogden Avenue and the  east end of Washington Bridge, leading to West 181st Street Manhattan

And I do hope to correct the tilt without losing sharpness. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 11, 2022 7:02 AM

Herewith

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 11, 2022 7:08 AM

And here is Richard Allman's superb realization of the Third Avenue and 85th Street clock photograph:

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, October 11, 2022 8:13 AM

Just a reminder that 187 was originally a conduit car, but did spend much of its operating time under an elevated structure, but on Third Avenue, and not Westchester Avenue.  Why no "T"? sign on the dash?  Probably painted over jusxt before receiving poles for servikce in The Bronx, then yanked from that process to briefly serve on the 125th Street Crossatown, and no removable sign was availabl,e at the moment.  

A repeat poosting from the first page of this thread.

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 12:41 PM

Dave -- Again, sorry - I deleted and re-wrote this message herein.  I posted the photo (on a new reply) from my collection that you had for the basis of your and Allman's edits.  As such, both edits were not bad at all --- but why edit at all !

Perhaps I sent that B&W photo your way via private email instead - I will check. 

(I CHECKED, and yes, I did email it your way)

regards - Joe F

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 12:56 PM

Dave--- Sorry !!  I have deleted and re-written this message -- The mix-up was that My Sept. 26th message to you was a reply to you about the OTHER clock in YOUR photo view north along the EL on WEST side of 3rd Ave. at E. 85th Street.   And that was what and why I also posted the color photo of the Yorkville clock.  I apologize for the mis-understanding and my now removed and re-written comments. The process of following posts and threads in this forum is archaic at best -- and can cause confusion.  Because there is no visual direct attached connection to the original post a person is replying to !!   However,  the 3rd Ave El B&W photo I refer to with the original Yorkville Clock is a somewhat cropped version of the original in my COLLECTION for decades and not from the net. I EMAILED you my cropped version of the original photo - and then it gets replaced by two edited versions - one from you and one from Allman.   Actually, they are not bad either !   Here is the ORIGINAL photo from my webpage archive site that I sent you by email -- but I only see your edited & Allman edited versions. And not the one I sent that you originally posted in a message and stated was from "Joseph Frank"  -- the original from me as shown below;

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 1:28 PM

 

Here is our joint effort to make the clock photo as true to life as any black-and-white can be. And iI found the lost photo that I wanted to post when I posted a 65th and 3rd by mistake.  The corner sign here is for East 85th Street, Joe's neighborhood, and we see the uptown 84th Street Station  (Corrction, 86th): 

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 2:32 PM

Hello Dave --- I unraveled the mystery !  Of course you are correct about removing photos of someone else. However, I found out HOW you got the photo -- I EMAILED it  to you Sept. 27th -- from my Archive collection.  Thus, sorry - and  my error,  as I DID NOT post it originally here at this forum....my error.  Thus it CAME FROM ME regardless ---from  no where else.  Doesn't matter if I took it,  if I was given a copy by the photographer, or whatever.  I have over 850000 photos in my archive - and over 500000 color slides --- many my own, many from unknown sources thru the past 5 + decades.  well, again, at least the (your and Allman) edits were pretty good I must say --- but WHY -- what was wrong with my original I show BELOW  ?  Thats' all !

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 3:16 PM

Hi Dave---

That "lost" photo you just posted -- yes -- I saw that scene countless times but with STS Red & Cream MACK buses instead of the trolleys.  My old neighborhood.  BUT -- the corner sign is for  EAST 86th STREET (not 85th St as you wrote).  Nostalgic photo for me -- I know all the stores in that scene -(everything seen is gone presently) - which IS looking south along EAST sidewalk line of 3rd Avenue along the EL -- across wide East 86th Street -- the wide crosstown east / west main street thru Yorkville with all the European & German restaurants, dance halls, small specialty meat and bake and other shops, etc. .  Note the cheap temporary plywood black & white painted "safety squares" - a crude early attempt to mark and make more visible, EL pillars in the middle of crosstown streets.  Later the columns themselves were stencil-painted uniformly with black & white bands on the steelwork. Here is LINK to image of same scene along East sidewalk in present times! --- (COPY & PASTE the url) ---  https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7787931,-73.9538752,3a,90y,227.38h,92.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7BCV3Il-CfzuCRSM8Cz2fQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

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Posted by Steven Otte on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 3:47 PM

I have received a complaint about possible copyright issues in this thread. While some of the photos I see here may be in the public domain, if there is doubt, don't post it here without obtaining permission from the copyright holder. The copyright holder is the photographer or their heirs; having an original photo or slide in your collection does not make it your photo. Unless you are the original photographer or have permission of the photographer, don't post them here. And certainly don't copy, alter, and repost them without that permission, either. Thank you.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 9:08 PM

Steve:  Are there specific photos where a complaint is important enough that you wish me to use the edit button for photos that I posted, and only I posted, to remove them?  I have assumed that photos sent me, without specific instructions regarding this issue, are in the public domain already.  Most photos I receive have specific instructions one way or the other.  In the future, I'll assume they are not in the public domain if they arrive without instructions.

Regarding those photos that are in the public domain, many are faded, torn, and/or badly tilted.  Don't I have the right to fix them before posting?

Joe, the pawnbroker symbol has three balls, not two.  So restoration work on the photo included the use of available evidence as to what the scene actually looked like.  Details of the MUDC 6-car elevated train are more visible, the sky's clouds are actually seen, signs more readible, and the photo, except possibly for the restoration of the top ball, is certainly closer to what the original photo was before a faded version was available in a screen-shot or Internet posting.

But if Steve wishes me to remove any photo, I will.

I regard all my postings as a service, not any attempt to demonstrate skills superior than others.  There is stiil a lot of old stuff of mine to be scanned, and that is what I'll spend my time and money on addressing henceforth.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 12, 2022 9:40 PM

Steve:  Is there any reason why Joe Frank cannot start his own thread on this Forum to display his own collection, to the extent where possible copyright is not violated?   But, of course, contributions from others showing Third Avenue Lightweights on this thread, Joe's or anyone else, that meet Steve's requirements, are always most welcome.

The vast, very vast, number of photos on this thread were taken by me.  Most of the few others, such as those of 555 in unpasinted aluminum and 551 at Gardner Avenue, were official Third Avenue Railway photos, distributed for publicity purposes.  Some may have been used in copyrighted books, but that does not make them copyrighted photos.  Some I obtained as a teenager before they were used in any books. 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 13, 2022 1:59 AM

Dave -- I private emailed you a "closeup" cropped version of original photo of the clock and it has the top single ball (of 3 balls) cut off in the cropping. The "Yorkville" CLOCK LOCATION was the focus,  the MAIN point - NOT the EL, the scene, nor the train!  The clock was the subject-reason for sending you that cropped photo.

I have the full frame version of that photo with quite a lot more visible in the scene...including the original top 3 balls on the clock!  The original point IN MY PRIVATE EMAIL to you - was to heads-up inform you that the so called "Yorkville" clock (as it has been called since the 1970's) was NOT the clock seen - and you referenced - in your 1947 or so photo looking N. to the N/W corner of E. 85th Street, on WEST side of 3rd Ave (and along the downtown track side of the EL) -- But infact was the clock ACROSS THE AVENUE -- just SOUTH of E. 85th Street on the EAST side of 3rd Avenue, along the UPTOWN track side.  That photo (my slightly zoomed in version I sent you) had the clock and a train in view.

Then you want to "improve" the photo I sent you and post it on this forum... originally as stated "received from Joseph Frank" by you.  Then you edited it and removed my name as provider.... and reposted it -- and then you had to repost it AGAIN as edited "more lifelike" by Mr. Allman.... (well, heh, he edit-artwork added the missing top ball,  nicely done as such)  However, Allman made the added-in top ball too tall-large and its not round-shaped like the lower 2  balls, as it should be.

The clouds, and details you say on there on the edited version, are ALSO on MY emailed original copy -- and store signs are crisper, sharper and easier to read on mine.  All Alman did was to LIGHTEN (fade) the contrast a bit but did not improve any sharpness or MUDC (the train) details -- they are all seen in my original. 

You have long had this mental fetish to constantly want to change, or "improve"  photos, yours, anyone's, that you (or others) post here --- and you are the only on I ever encounted on many forums or anywhere that continually insists on having to, wanting to, needing to, do that. 

If I had not sent you that photo by email, you would never have seen it or known of nor been aware of it.  I did NOT give permission (but did not deny as such) for you to take it from my email and use it, change it, edit it, or post it.  But you did anyway -- and edited it 2x on this forum. And I warned you here in print previously times to NOT tamper with my photos or any photos I share with you from my archives collection.  As I would expect with this photo I shared with you.  

Editor Steve is correct in his comments - and I agree with him -- and now you want to upstart and challenge him and his instructions.  Dave -- edit YOUR OWN photos you took (or of your collection) --- but leave alone photos posted here by myself and other members. And not be tampering with them...and in some cases, make them worse ! As has been documented here elsewhere.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 2:16 AM

Joe:  I rode the A Line through Pelham many times, about 50, trips to the model railroad at the old beautiful Pelham Manor station, trips by myself or with John Stern, and fan-trips.  The route through Pelham was essentially on residential streets, with a few scattered convenience stores and possibly one gas station.  There was no "commercial district" in the sense that Mount Vernon and New Rochelle have,  The view agrees with my memory.

The disagreement between the ERA map and the results of your research may be entirely the result of changes over time.

And if the abandonment-of-use track had not still physically been in place, it probably would not have been shown on the map.  There were other local lines that connected to the "A" and that were not shown on the map, such as the Pelham Manor - Pelham Station H Line of Fontain Fox  fame, because their tracks were removed.

May I ask you to "go back to the drawing board?"

And do the necessary research to tell us what the actoal changes were, instead of just labeling tne ERA map innacurate?   Removal of that corner store complex and replacement by housing or parkland may be one. 

I remember only one clock, but it is your neighborhood.  Do both clocks still exist?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 6:56 AM

To help Joe Frank or anyone eklse to detail all the changes from 1945 to now for the area arounf . I've replaced the entire Yonkers track map, which, if my memory is ciorrect, was given out as a "freebe" on a fan-trtip. with an enlargement of just the area covered by the New Rochelle - Subway A Line.

The ERA sold (I'll check to see if still available) a trackmap of the entire system in 1945.

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Posted by Steven Otte on Thursday, October 13, 2022 8:39 AM

Dave: I don't feel like going through seven pages of a photo-heavy thread to determine the provenance of every photo you've posted. The responsibility to adhere to copyright falls on the person posting the photo. You know if you shot a photo or not. If you didn't, get permission from the original photographer or their inheritors, or don't post it. Even if it's already been posted here or elsewhere.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:09 AM

OK  Agreed.  My real purpose has been to revive the photos I took as a  youngster and share  them, and from now on only exceptionally with the specific request of the original photographer ("You can share this photo I took if you wish, David" --- typical, interpreted my me as a request to share--- will I post someone else's photograph.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 9:38 AM

And if Richard Allmasn and/or I do any editing, I'll ask the photographer for permission to use the edited version.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 10:28 AM

deleted

 

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 13, 2022 10:38 AM

Richard Allman's improvement on my straightened 187 on Westchester Avenue photo:

 

 

 

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Thursday, October 13, 2022 1:10 PM

Dave -- "improvement"??  Look at the distortion (looks like mud or/ and grass) at  the upper right corner where clearly and sharply seen "before" improvements -- are the visible track catwalk ties, planking and railing.  Looks like "grass" growing there now !!!   BELOW is your (or that same) photo BEFORE your touted new editing -- look at top right corner - - also signs are sharper and more detailed and have more definition contrast

 

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