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Steam commuter locomotives

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, February 26, 2015 3:08 AM

But which town was the west end of the B&E railroad?  The east terminal of the ferry?

Interesting that the SP and the GTW (Detroit-Durand) used some of their most modern steam power in commuter service toward end of steam.  Earlier,  Pacifics were use for both SF and Detroit, but we saw 4-8-4's out of 3rd and Townsend and streamlined 4-8-2s on the GTW.   Occasonally, a Hudson would substitute for a Pacific for the Harmon - Poughkeepsie service, but never a Niagra.  I suppose that when a Hudson was used, the commuters just had to put up without lights, because the Hudsons did not have generators large enough for head-end lighting power, and as far as I know, NYCentral mus did not have oversized battaries or axle-generators.  Steam heat yes.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Wednesday, February 25, 2015 8:34 PM

I've always thought the ferry docked at Annapolis,but I don't know for sure. As for the D16sb's, unfortunately 1223 is the sole surviver. I understand that 1035, one of the last three, was slated for preservation, as she was in decent shape when retired. Someone obviously felt one was enough. Two were sold to the Kishacoquillis Valley Railroad in central PA. #1033 and 2082. Both ran until the end of that little line in 1940. 2082 was scrapped on sight, 1033 went elsewhere, surely for scrapping also.

A friend of mine complained that the 1223 was always the engine operating when he visited Strasburg back in the 70's. I never saw her run! I was so jealous! I did get to ride behind 7002 one time. She is a beauty in her own right!

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 25, 2015 3:33 AM

The Baltimore Eastern's connection with Baltimore was by ferry boat or via the PRR Cape Charles Line.  It was mostly an east-west operation across the Del-Mar-Va Penninsular.  I would like to be reminded as to where the ferry boat landing at the west end was located.  Of the three D16s that survived the purge for operation on the Baltimore Eastern, were any others saved besides the one at Strassburg's Pennsylvanina Railway Museum?  A really beutiful locomotive!  And be glad you can see what is at that museum and others. We could have faired worse!

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Posted by rfpjohn on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 6:41 PM

As I said in my original post, Prior to the depression years, PRR cycled it's power out in 20-25 years. As noted in your comment, Dave, in later years, Pennsy steam often did attain impressive age. Your example of the E6s class being a good one. They didn't build any consolidations after 1916, yet the H8, H9 and H10 classes were well represented in the late 50's. D16sb was a unique case. Only three survived the purge 1930's, and only because they were the only power light enough and suitable for service on the Baltimore & Eastern subsidiary. The rest of the class was scrapped out as commuter lines electrified and larger power became available (G5s, E6s, etc.) along with the decline of branchline service systemwide due to the depression and bus/auto competition.

I made a statement in my posting that's bothered me all day. I said that Pennsy was unique in acquiring brand new steam power exclusively for commuter service (G5s) when the CNJ 4-6-4T and B&A 4-6-6T locomotives had just been discussed! Neat, modern engines, with a sole purpose; transport commuter trains efficiently!

Wish I'd been around to see any of them!

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:08 AM

Not quite right.   Remember the E6 was a 1914 design and the full pack survived through WWII, with a few making it to 1952, rode behind one Little Silver - Princeton Jc., subst. for the Red Bank - Trenton doodlebug summer 1952.   The K4's I-10's, H-9, H10, Ls and Ms lasted more than 25 years for sure.   But these were locomotives designed with the help of the Altoona test facilitiy and some real engineering, with possibly the E6 being the first.  And certainly the rebuilt D16s lasted 50 years or more.   The G5 was designed to be an efficient locomotive.  Taking over from earlier power reduced maintenance iand fuel costs, possibly even with light trains.

And as noted, the NYCentral did have specific Boston suburban tank locomotives.  But from the B&M Moguls to the SP 4-8-4s bumpted by diesels, certainly downgraded road power was normal for North American suburban servie.

'

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Posted by rfpjohn on Monday, February 23, 2015 8:15 PM

Yea, those K2s were dogs. I'm not sure if any ever got power reverse. Pennsy was not one to waste much money on "frills" unless ordered to by the ICC. D16, E3, E5 and E6s classes never did get it. The reluctance of engineers to adjust valve settings under way on K2s, out of fear of being injured by the johnson bar throwing them into the front corner of the cab, may have been one of the reasons they were so inefficient and also would be cause for excessive wear in the valve gear and valves. I have also read that the trailing trucks had a bad habit of running hot and also disassembling at speed! Not good.

It is interesting, to me, the different approach some roads took to powering commuter service. Pennsy seems alone, at least among eastern lines, to have acquired brand new engines for such service. Everybody else just used outmoded road engines, although often heavily rebuilt. This seems to be in keeping with PRR's policy up through the 1920's of not really keeping engines a long time. 20-25 years seemed about typical, some classes of yard power not even lasting that long. I guess it was deemed cheaper to replace than to rebuild. With the onset of the depression, locomotive lifespans start to really stretch out, with some engines approaching half a century at the end of steam.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, February 23, 2015 11:18 AM

I agree with you about upgraded light Atlantics and Americans on two and three-car branch-line trains.  But the K2 Pacific was a notoriously inefficient locomotive, both in coal and water usage and in maintanace, the latter because of heavy valve-gear needing adjustment frequently.  Its Johnson bar was heavy for the engineer to control .   PRR and LIRRand PRSL were happy with the G5s (and of course the E6s) that they had, especially during WWII.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Sunday, February 22, 2015 8:40 PM

Growing up on a Pennsy (Pemberton) branch in south Jersey, the PRR enginemen prefered E6s Atlantics. G5s just rode too rough! A Baldwin RS-12, PC #8084 was the last power on that lines commuter train (4-25-1969).

My comment concerning possible PRR regrets over acquiring G5s engines was in regard to how they sometimes seemed severely overpowered for the 2-5 car trains on mildly graded territory (NOT Pittsburgh territory). Pennsy ended up scrapping alot of fairly recently upgraded light power, after the arrival of those big ten wheelers. D16sb, E3sd, E7s K2s engines could have conceveably carried them through the depression years traffic levels with little more than heavy overhauls. Of course, the second world war found them needing every thing that could steam!

Thanks for the NYC info, Dave.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, February 22, 2015 12:51 PM

Pittsburgh commuter trains lasted into the 1960s.  Like the "Valpo dummies" in Chicago, they got boiler GP9s in their last years.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, February 21, 2015 3:55 PM

RFPJOHN:   Although the Pennsy got its G5s Ten Wheelers for commuter service, and indeed the Pittsburgh commuter trains used them until dicontinuance, withouit diesels, if I remember correctly, most migrated into branch line and pedler freight service because of massive electrification of the Phiadelphia and NEC commuter lines.  Indeed, many fans associated these modern 4-6-0's with this type of service, not realizing they were originally designed as commuter lcomotives.  They were solid, economical, easy-tp-mainatain locomotives, and I doubt the Pennsy regreted having them.  The rebuilt D16s were valuable where track and/or bridge conditions prohibited the overall weight and axle loadings of G5s.

The Gettys Square tank engines were used right up to electrification of the branch and never saw regujlar service on the Putnam main line to Brester.  Downgraded 4-6-0s were the regular  power there until dieselization with RS-3s.  Some of the 4-6-0's in use after  wwii still had slide-valves.

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, February 21, 2015 12:03 PM

There were a few American RR's that had a 2-6-4"T" (Tank engine).  But Lionel was the only "RR" to have an American outline 2-6-4 tendered loco, including the (in)famous "Girls Train" in pink.

Yet, Lionel was not the only "RR" to have a 2-6-4 that was "tendered".  The name given them is "Adriatic" and that is because there were some tendered 2-6-4 locomotives in countries that border the Adriatic Sea in Europe. They were also used in South Africa and Australia.

I do think the Lionel 2-6-4 is a very finely proportioned locomotive and I wish there were some real 1:1 scale of that type in America.

 

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, February 21, 2015 8:23 AM

Interesting, that Reading 2-6-4.  I thought Lionel was the only bunch that had 2-6-4's.

 

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Posted by rfpjohn on Friday, February 20, 2015 8:19 PM

Dave, I'm curious. How long did steam last on the Yonkers branch of the NYC. The pictures I've seen of those 2-4-4T engines seem to indicate farely modern machines. I notice they had piston valves and electric headlights. Really cool looking little engines! Wish I had one!

Also, does anyone know how long the New Haven ran 4-4-0s. I've seen pictures of them in service as late as 1938.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, February 20, 2015 8:14 AM

IC also assigned 2-8-0's to commuter service.  The major change was a big headlight mounted on the tender.

Wisconsin Central and its Chicago Harlem and Batavia subsidiary ran 2-4-2 and 2-6-2 tank engines over what's now CSX's B&OCT line to Forest Park, along with another line on what's now Randolph Street in Chicago, Oak Park and River Forest from the late 1880s to about 1897. Part of the line in Chicago(Austin) and Oak Park was shared between a branch of the Lake St L and the Suburban Railroad from 1897 to 1902.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Friday, February 20, 2015 8:03 AM

CNJ also had a group of 25 classy looking 2-6-2T side tank engines, some of which lased though WW2. Five of these engines were originally built for the Long Island in 1904 and sold to the CNJ in 1911. Some of the photos in northeast.railfan show a few of these engines rebuilt with piston valves, indicating they may have superheated a few, though not necessarily. Of course they also had their big fleet of ten wheeler camelbacks, equipped with pilots and headlights on the tenders for reverse running. The Reading rebuilt some of it's D8 4-4-0s with piston valves and superheat for commuter service as well as revamping some of it's freight 4-6-0s into nifty looking L3sb class. I believe these were rebuilt from conventional cab 4-6-0 freight locomotives as the last camelbacks built in the country in 1929! Of course, Pennsy rebuilt D16 class americans into the wonderful D16sb which were great commuter engines. I've often wondered whether PRR regretted going for the 90 huge G5s engines on cusp of the depression, when patronage on many commuter lines plummetted.

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Friday, February 20, 2015 7:24 AM

The Reading had class Q1 2-6-4T locomotives which were specifically built for commuter service and were supposed to run both ways without turning.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/pr381.jpg

The CNJ had 4-6-4T locomotives which also were specifically built for commuter service and were supposed to run both ways without turning.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1675599

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Steam commuter locomotives
Posted by daveklepper on Friday, February 20, 2015 6:58 AM
I had hoped for a more detailed discussion of steam locos for commuter service on my question regarding steam-hauled mu electric cars.  It did not materialize, so here are some ideas.

 

  1.  Most railroads used downgraded rode passenger power, and often this meant Pacifics, with the newest handling name trains and older ones on commuter traffic.  The Boston and Maine service out of North Station was one big exception, with the usual power Moguls, 2-6-0s.
  2. The IC-suburban followed elevated railroad practice with 2-4-4T Forney locomotives, elevateds using mostly 0-4-4T, tank engines, often run in reverse and equipped with tender headlights.  These hauled the South Shore trains as well before the IC electrification completion.
  3. In Boston suburban service, the New York Central used 4-6-4T and 4-6-6T Forney-type locomotives, some built as late as 1927 and appearing like shortened Hudsons.  In the New York area Pacifics were normal, except the Gettty-Square, Yonkers, branch off the Putnam line, junction, Van Courtland Park, where 2-4-4T Forney's were used before electrification, which may have also been used in Boston.
  4. The PRR G5 Ten Wheeler was specifically designed for suburban service, not a handmedown, and was built into the late 1920s.  I suspect the LIRR had more of this type than all other steam added together!

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