Somebody, in another forum platform, asked a question about the movement of through passenger equipment between the various stations in Chicago. In particular they were curious about how sleepers from the NYC were placed on the outbound C&NW trains.
That's a good one since the route from LaSalle Street to Madison Street had to be pretty creative.
Anyone?
I don't have an answer to that question, but it is a very good one.
I can tell you that there was a connecting track at 16th Street to the St. Charles Air Line from the Rock Island/NYC tracks leading out of LaSalle Street Station. From there, the C&NW ran a track west to Western Avenue which then turned north and ran to the main line C&NW tracks at Kinzie Street where a wye track joined the C&NW main line. That circuitous route was undoubtedly the way that it was done.
Rich
Alton Junction
Well, I believe that's it..then and thanks, Rich.
However, it would seem that all the stars and planets would have to line up just-so that connecting sleeper wouldn't be delivered late.
By the way, the referenced connection was between the Water Level Limited and the Los Angeles Limited.
It would be neat to find a Trains article, if there is one, about how the cars were transferred. Here's an article from Central Headlight, April 1946.
First Coast-to-Coast Service by the New York Central
Two Routes to Los Angeles and Two More to San Francisco Receive Warm Public Welcome
The first through daily coast-to-coast railway passenger service between New York and Los Angeles and New York and San Francisco was started Sunday, March 31, by the New York Central and several western railways. This is the first regular daily standard Pullman sleeping car service on the United States railroads that permits trans-continental travel without change of cars.
Two routes to Los Angeles have been established. The first, utilizing the Central's famous 20th Century Limited in conjunction with the Santa Fe's Chief, was announced March 20, by G. Metzman, President, New York Central System, and Fred G. Gurley, President, Santa Fe System. A few days later, announcement of an alternative service, utilizing the New York Central's Iroquois and the Los Angeles Limited was made. The Iroquois also carries a car for San Francisco.
Still later another service, each way between New York and San Francisco, on alternate days, using the Central's Commodore Vanderbilt and the Exposition Flyer, over the Burlington, Denver & Rio Grande Western and the Western Pacific Route, was placed in operation. This service out of Grand Central Terminal, New York, started April 4 .
On the first day of the new service, the 20th Century Limited, leaving New York at 5:30 P. M. included an all-room sleeping car which, upon arrival of train at LaSalle Street Station, Chicago, at 9:30 the following morning was delivered to the Dearborn Station, where it was attached to the Santa Fe Chief, leaving Chicago at 12:01 P. M. and arriving Los Angeles 11:50 A. M. on Wednesday, April 3. Eastbound the Santa Fe Chief, leaving Los Angeles Saturday, March 30, at 12:01 P. M., similarly included an all-room sleeping car scheduled to arrive Grand Central Terminal, New York at 9:30 A. M., on Tuesday, April 2, on the Century.
The through service provided by these world famous streamliners, the only daily coast-to-coast premium trains in the country, is in the most modern type sleeping cars. Each car has bedrooms, compartments and drawing rooms.
The two railroad executives said that this initial service had been determined upon only after long consideration and careful study by the passenger traffic managers of the two lines. It is intended that it will be expanded as required to meet the demands of the traffic.
Early Sellout of Space
F. H. Baird, General Passenger Traffic Manager, reported that demand for the new Century-Chief transcontinental service for the first trip exceeded capacity, the available accommodations being sold within a few hours of the announcement.
On the first Century coast-to-coast car leaving New York was Miss Una O'Hara, a smartly uniformed New York Central passenger representative who carried a message from Mayor William O'Dwyer of New York to Mayor Fletcher Bowron of Los Angeles. In the message Mayor O'Dwyer extended greetings to his fellow mayor and to the citizens of Los Angeles and commended the new service as "another progressive phase of modern railroading.
A similar message from Mayor Bowron to Mayor O'Dwyer arrived on the Century incoming transcontinental car April 2.
One service to and from San Francisco is made in the Iroquois and the Overland Limited, which is operated over the Chicago & North Western-Union Pacific-Southern Pacific Route. Between Chicago and Los Angeles the "Los Angeles Limited runs over the Chicago & North Western-Union Pacific Route.
The Iroquois, leaving New York at 11:30 P.M., included two through sleeping cars for this service. On arrival at Chicago at 4:20 P. M. the following day one of these cars transferred to the Overland Limited and the other to the Los Angeles Limited, both leaving Chicago at 8:15 P. M., reaching respectively San Francisco at 9:20 A..M. and Los Angeles at 8:30 A. M. the fourth day.
East-bound service is o p e r a t ed over the same routes between the west coast and Chicago, leaving Los Angeles 5:30 P. M. and San Francisco 7 P. M. arriving in Chicago at 8:30 A. M., transferring there to New York Central's Fifth Avenue Special, leaving at 10:50 A. M. and arriving in New York 7:45 A. M.
Additional daily sleeping car service between New York and San Francisco, in conjunction with the Exposition Flyer, operated over the Burlington, Denver & Rio Grande Western and the Western Pacific route, was announced by the New York Central and Pennsylvania railroads.
Passengers using this new transcontinental route leave New York on alternate days on the New York Central or Pennsylvania, thereafter going west from Chicago over the Burlington, Denver & Rio Grande Western and Western Pacific route. Between New York and Chicago, each way, the Commodore Vanderbilt on the New York Central and the General on the Pennsylvania are used for this service.
The first car on this new route left San Francisco on the Exposition Flyer, Sunday, March 31, at 4 P.M., arriving in New York at 9:30 Thursday morning, April 4, on the Commodore Vanderbilt.
The first car leaving New York City departed on the General at 4:05 P.M., April 3, arriving in San Francisco on the Exposition Flyer at 9:50 A.M., April 7.
The second car from New York left Grand Central Terminal on the Commodore Vanderbilt at 4:15 p.m., April 4. Thereafter, the service was alternated in this way between the General and the Commodore Vanderbilt.
The westbound Exposition Flyer leaves Chicago at 12:35 Noon and the twin eastbound train arrives at 11:55 A.M., daily.
wanswheel It would be neat to find a Trains article, if there is one, about how the cars were transferred.
It would be neat to find a Trains article, if there is one, about how the cars were transferred.
I agree that it would be neat to find an article on how these cars were transferred.
I am no expert on the movement of passenger cars from one railroad to another in Chicago. Far from it. But, I am familiar with the track routes, historically, into Chicago's six passenger stations.
As to the initial question of how sleepers from the NYC were placed on the outbound C&NW trains, this had to be a unique challenge in that the Northwestern Station was the only one of the six downtown Chicago passenger stations without track access from the south. All trains entering Northwestern Station did so from the north, approaching the station from either the north or west.
All of the other five downtown Chicago passenger stations had track access from the south with trains approaching these stations from the south and from the west. The common trackage between these stations was the St. Charles Air Line (SCAL) running on a north-south axis at around 16th Street from the lakefront to west of the Chicago River.
Four of the five stations (Central, Dearborn, LaSalle and Grand Central) were east of the Chicago River. These four stations were located on the south end of downtown Chicago. The fifth station, Union Station, was situated on the west side of downtown Chicago and on the west side of the Chicago River. However, tracks entering Union Station were from the south with the exception of the Milwaukee Road track which entered from the north but still could be reached from the tracks entering from the south.
So, with the exception of Northwestern Station, it was possible for any train using any of the other five downtown Chicago passenger stations to access trackage to one another's station. However, since Northwestern Station had no access from the south, moving cars from any of the other five stations to Northwestern Station had to be done using a more circuitous route, as described earlier in this thread.
What I have always found interesting about Northwestern Station is that it could have provided a track link from the south via Union Station which was only a couple of blocks south of Northwestern Station. Situated on the west side of the Chicago River, just like Union Station, the tracks entering Union Station from the south could have continued one for two more blocks to link up with the C&NW tracks at Northwestern Station. But, at least to my knowledge, there never was such a link; thus, the circuitous route.
Union Station in Chicago did have tracks connecting the south tracks to the north tracks. There were two freight tracks next to the river and one passenger track between the freight tracks and the station.
Amtrak routed the Milwaukee to KC train on that track. I have left Chicago for Poughkeepsie NY on this track, so it was also used for 'non-through' traffic.
Unfortunately, a through track at Union Station doesn't help getting a car easily over to the Northwestern Station. MILW tracks don't get close to the NW tracks till Western Ave which is the same place as using the route along the St Charles Airline.
At one time the MILW had a line up along Goose Island but that didn't connect with the NW until way north near Clybourne.
Art
artschlosser Union Station in Chicago did have tracks connecting the south tracks to the north tracks. There were two freight tracks next to the river and one passenger track between the freight tracks and the station. Amtrak routed the Milwaukee to KC train on that track. I have left Chicago for Poughkeepsie NY on this track, so it was also used for 'non-through' traffic.
It is true that Union Station did have tracks running along the river and that the south and north tracks were connected. But, if the NYC passenger cars were routed through that pasenger track, how did those cars reach Northwestern Station? Weren't all of the tracks elevated coming into Northwestern Station from the north? The NYC cars would be moving from south to north on tracks that were at ground level, not elevated.
I have a book titled Railroading in Downtown Chicago 1958-1969. There is a photo of a pair of C&NW GP7's hauling freight cars and moving north on those freight tracks behind Union Station along the river. The caption below the photo reads, "Transfer jobs could bypass Union Station on the east side. Having come north through the 21st Street crossing, this freight haul will pass along the east side of Union Station, then turn west out toward the C&NW's Proviso Yard". So, it is obvious that the C&NW used those freight tracks.
But again, the question is whether other roads like NYC were able to transfer passenger cars from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station using this route.
The fact that there were tracks along the river at Union Station did not mean that they were used for swapping passenger cars.
Now if the MILW spur to Goose Island crossed the NW tracks at grade at Kinsie (continuing across the river to reach the former NW station north of the loop), AND if there were interchange tracks at that crossing, THEN those tracks along Union station COULD have been used to get cars to the NW. Neither of those spurs exist at present, but were present when AMTRAK came about.
But my maps show no other way than using the St Charles Air line and coming back on the NW. Of course the old Pan Handle used tracks along Western Ave (with a stop at Madison) to get to the ROW the MILW used to reach the north side of Union.
Another thing to consider regarding the transfer of cars from any of the four stations east of the Chicago River (Central, Dearborn, LaSalle, Grand Central) to Northwestern Station west of the Chicago River is that the only track crossing the river was the St.Charles Air Line (SCAL). Once SCAL crossed the river on the west side, the Air Line track was elevated, passing over the PRR and CB&Q yards. To my knowledge, there was no spur track off SCAL to ground level at that point. So, that is another reason to conclude that the transfer of cars proceeded west from SCAL to Western Avenue, then north to Kinzie, and back east on the C&NW mainline tracks.
This afternoon, I remembered that after Grand Central Station was closed, the B&O and C&O began operating their Chicago trains into and out of the North Western Terminal. Is anyone interested in finding out what the routing was? Knowing this may help answer the original question on this thread.
Johnny
Deggesty This afternoon, I remembered that after Grand Central Station was closed, the B&O and C&O began operating their Chicago trains into and out of the North Western Terminal. Is anyone interested in finding out what the routing was? Knowing this may help answer the original question on this thread.
Someone recently answered that question on the Trains forum.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/196217/2143812.aspx#2143812
Here is an excerpt with the answer.
I remember being surprised by the slow and convoluted (IMO) route that the C&O trains used to get to the North Western Station, only to realize a little later that it wasn't that much different from the way they got to Grand Central! Instead of hanging a right at Robey Street, they continued north on the C&NW Rockwell Sub to Rockwell Junction. Depending on lateness, the arriving trains would from there either head directly in to the station at Western Avenue, or go west on the main line to Kedzie, and back in (a little over three miles). While C&O and B&O were using the C&NW Station, they had use (perhaps exclusive use) of Tracks 1 and 2.
So, once again, trains had to use the circuitous route through C&NW's Rockwell Sub to the wye at Kinzie, then turn east to proceed into Northwestern Station.
I have a copy of 'Chicago Union Station - A look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak' by Edward M. Derouin and have been re-reading the parts I'd skimmed over before.
On page 33 is a not-to-scale depiction of the 'North Approach and North Joint Tracks - Circa 1959' of Chicago's north side from Union Station over to Western Ave.
As track 5 (the east track of two tracks) starts to turn west toward Western Ave., just before leaving CUS ownership and entering joint PRR and MILW ownership, there is first a spur to right to the MILW C&E line (toward Goose Lake) and then a second spur to the right to the 'C&NW'. I wonder if this spur could have been used in switching through Pullmans to the CNW?
Anybody know an old Union Station railroader?
artschlosser I have a copy of 'Chicago Union Station - A look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak' by Edward M. Derouin and have been re-reading the parts I'd skimmed over before. On page 33 is a not-to-scale depiction of the 'North Approach and North Joint Tracks - Circa 1959' of Chicago's north side from Union Station over to Western Ave. As track 5 (the east track of two tracks) starts to turn west toward Western Ave., just before leaving CUS ownership and entering joint PRR and MILW ownership, there is first a spur to right to the MILW C&E line (toward Goose Lake) and then a second spur to the right to the 'C&NW'. I wonder if this spur could have been used in switching through Pullmans to the CNW? Anybody know an old Union Station railroader? Art
Art,
Any way you could scan that page so that we can view it here?
Rich, I have a scanner but no posting capabilities. Can easily email to someone's email address, though.
I will PM you.
I worked for Santa Fe in Chicago a number of years ago and there were a number of "old heads" who remembered the "passing cars;" as they called the transcontinental sleepers. They said that the cars as often as not were transfered to the coach yard of the respective departing railroad as to the departing train station. The yard location was done to permit servicing and maintenance to the cars, as well enabling them to switched "into line" (i.e., consist order) at the yard instead of at the terminal when departure time would have been imminent.
A story was told by some old heads of an interesting story about the passing cars. Transcontinental passengers had the option, which reportedly most of them took advantage of, to leave their sleeper at the arriving terminal and board again later in the day at the departure terminal to go shopping or sightseeing instead of enduring some boring hours being transferred by a switch engine and sitting in a yard while cleaning and mainetnance were going on. A few passengers did stay with the cars however, particularly during inclement weather.
It seems that a couple traveling to Los Angeles elected to stay with the car for the trip to the coach yard. As the cleaning and maintenance activities took place, word spread throughout the yard that the woman was posing nude in a provocative pose on the couch in their drawing room, with the guy "sketching" her while seated in a corner with his back to the window. (They were probably Hollywood types, who were a regular part of the transcontinental Pullman's clientele.)
Soon, a step ladder had been positioned just outside the respective window, and railwaymen of every craft were standing in line to get a look. Since there had to be a reason for them to be on the ladder, they each spent a few minutes washing the window!
Santa Fe had a reputation as a "clean window" railroad in terms of its passenger service, but that day one of them was cleaner than usual!
I'm not certain of the routing from LaSalle St to CNW CPT but the SCAL route is the most logical and believable. There was enough time between arrival and departure that the circuitous route wouldn't have been an issue. I would think the sleeping car transfer runs would have been given priority over freight moves and the trip might have taken an hour or so one way. The connections would have allowed a straight run without any backup moves. I remember reading that the through passengers were transfered between stations by Parmalee, not in the sleeping cars.
It's very unlikely that CUS trackage was used. Neither PRR nor Milwaukee Road would have any interest in allowing such a move for one thing. Secondly, the corridor along the Milwaukee Road and CNW in the Halsted Ave-Morgan St area was a tangle of freight houses and team tracks. The main tracks didn't connect until Tower A2 at Western Ave, which is where the Rockwell Line connects anyway as mentioned by another poster.
I wondered about that. That is, whether passengers remained in the cars during the transfer or found another way to get from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station.
Incidentally, for readers unfamilar with Parmalee, the Parmalee Transfer Company was founded in 1853 by Franklin Parmalee to move passengers and baggage between Chicago's downtown railroad terminals. Originally a horse-drawn vehicle, the company evolved into a motor driven van shuttle and limousine service. The City of Chicago granted Parmalee the exclusive franchise for station transfer trade moving passengers and baggage, which the company held until 1971.
I remember ads for the NYC showing a pig with a livestock car in the background and a caption stating "A pig can travel from Coast to Coast without changing trains, why can't you?" Thien went on to expalin the through car from New York to Los Angeles.
There also were though sleepers between the B&O at Grand Central and Santa Fe at Dearborn I have no idea how they made the move. Your luggage would stay aboard and for the passengers.,a limo ride between the two was part of your ticket, with most people (as already mentioned) going down to the Loop in the limo for the layover. If you did, you rode a cab back.
Norman
According to my "old head" contacts in my Santa Few days, there was a way to get the sleepers from Dearborn to every other terminal/coach yard. The procedure as explained to me was that 4 switch engine crews would chase the train arriving at Dearborn with the passing cars; one for the train consist and three for the three different connecting railroad. After arrival, the forst switcher picked up the observation car and pulled back into the terminal plant. Then the switchers for the B&O, NYC, and PRR would each take their cars off in that order. (The cars were cut into line in that order from the rear of the train because of the respective departure time of the connecting trains and the distance to their coach yard.) The switcher handling the main body of the train would then tie back on with the observation car.
As each car was pulled back from Dearborn, the cars were washed (in good weather) and then turned around Santa Fe's "balloon" track so as to have the sleepers facing properly for the connecting railroad. (Santa Fe and IC were the only Chicago passenger railroads that had balloon loops. The rest had more time consuming wyes.)
The B&O car was, after washing and turning, taken north toward Dearborn again; to the track connection with the station's owner, the Chicago & Western Indiana. A short southward movement on the C&WI led to a track connection to the B&O terminal called "The Hole In The Wall;" so-called because it went underneath the high fill of the approach to the St. Charles Air Line bridge. (This vacant track space can still be seen today.) The car would either be spotted on a vacant platform track in the terminal, or pulled west for about 2 miles to the B&O's Robey St. coach yard.
The NYC cars (There were two daily each way for most of the period of transcontinental operations.) would be pulled onto a connecting track right off the Sant Fe's balloon track that went onto the NYC mainline for a trip to either LaSalle St. Station or Root St. coach yard. The PRR car would be taken onto the PRR main line via a track connection at 21st St Crossing and then shoved north either to Union Station or 12th St. coach yard.
There was a way for a car to get to the B&O. The "old heads" from the Santa Fe explained to me the procedure for getting the passing cars to the connecting railroads. When the Chief (or Super Chief in later years) arrived at Dearborn, four switch engine crews would chase the train. The first would pick up the observation car off the train and pull back into the station's interlocking plant. Then, the 3 remaining switchers would pick up the B&O, the NYC, and the PRR cars in that order. The cars were blocked in that order from the rear of the train because of the departure times of the connecting trains and the distance to the respective stations/coach yards. After the passing cars were gone, the switcher chasing the train would double back with the observation car.
After picking up the car, the switcher would pull south to Santa Fe's 18th St. coach yard; where (in good weather) they would be taken through the wash rack and then taken around the "balloon" track so as to have the car facing properly for the connecting railroad. The engine with the B&O car would go back north toward Dearborn to a track connection with the station's owner; the Chicago & Western Indiana. It would then go south a short distance on the C&WI to a track connection leading to the B&O terminal known as the "Hole in the Wall;" so-called because it went under the high fill that was the approach to the St. Charles Air Line drawbridge. (This unoccupied track space can still be seen today.)
Upon emerging from the Hole in the Wall, the engine would either continue north if spotting the car in the B&O terminal, or pull west 2 miles to B&O's Robey St. coach yard.
bo-Jack, this is great stuff. Thanks for sharing.
But the question remains: how did NYC cars get moved from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station for the trip west since there was no direct north-south access to Northwestern Station from the other five downtown stations?
Bo-Jack, it is my understanding that the track under the SCAL near the river belonged to the RI. At one time they had a dock and freighthouse south of the SCAL on the river bank after it was straightened. I have a very detailed map from 1959 which shows no connection to the C&WI there but it may have connected, depending on the time frame. .
There was a track off the B&OCT at Grand Central that went under Clark and Roosevelt called the hole in the wall track which connected to the RI. So it is possible that the SF car off the Super Chief was pulled down to the SF coach yard, then onto the RI/NYC tracks and then to GC using the hole in the wall track.
The add referred to was a Robert Young administration C&O add, not a NYCentral add.
On pages 54-55 of the October 2004 issue of Trains magazine, there is a detailed track map of the 16th Street Interlocking.
Just south of the 16th Street interlock, there is a spur track running off of the Rock Island tracks heading southwest, and it is labeled "Balloon Track to ATSF". It appears to be a different track than the one used by the Santa Fe to enter its coach yard from the C&WI mainline tracks.
A little north of the 16th Street interlock, there is a spur track runnning off of the Rock Island tracks heading northwest. That spur track is unlabeled, but it may be the B&OCT track that pullman jct. is referring to in his post. That would appear to explain the routing of the SF car from Dearborn Station to the ATSF coach yard and then to Grand Central Station.
I'll be darned.
I have had a detailed track map from Alton Junction to Dearborn Station for years, but I never noticed one almost insignificant feature.
Coming out of the south end of the ATSF coach yard is a single track labeled "CRI&P" (Rock Island RR). Aha, the infamous ATSF Balloon Track that I mentioned in my previous reply.
It may be a little hard to pick it up on the following diagram, but the balloon track is in the lower left portion of the diagram headed out of the ATSF coach yard. The Rock Island/ NYC tracks are also visible in the diagram.
I did a little checking last night. The hole in the wall track is a somewhat of a leftover from the days before the South Branch of the Chicago River was straightened. Prior to that project, the RI had small facility in the NW quadrant of the intersection of Wells and Roosevelt Road. I mistakenly identified that intersection as Clark and Roosevelt in a previous post. Sorry for the confusion.
There was no connection at that time from the RI to the B&OCT at Roosevelt Road as that was the location of the old B&OCT bridge. The project resulted in a major reconfiguration of B&OCT trackage, after which the hole in the wall track connected to the GC station lead tracks in GC Tower interlocking.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter