In a word, cost. C&NW was willing to handle the B&O's Capitol Limited/Columbian and C&O's Pere Marquettes at a little more than the marginal cost. The route to CUS would likely have been exactly the same used to C&NW as far as 14th St, then using the PC/PRR/PCC&St.L Panhandle line to the CUS North Joint Approach. An approach to the south would have been more difficult without involving the C&NW and CB&Q. An easy alternative would have been to use LaSalle, just taking a right at 87th St onto the Rock Island. That option wasn't explored by C&O/B&O as far as I can determine.
ALL:
Regarding the B&O and C&O; why didn't they use the CUS instead of the round about run to/from the CNW Terminal? What would have been their routes to/from the CUS?
Ed Burns
Great update, David, thanks for the info.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain bo-Jack, this is great stuff. Thanks for sharing. But the question remains: how did NYC cars get moved from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station for the trip west since there was no direct north-south access to Northwestern Station from the other five downtown stations? Rich
bo-Jack, this is great stuff. Thanks for sharing.
But the question remains: how did NYC cars get moved from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station for the trip west since there was no direct north-south access to Northwestern Station from the other five downtown stations?
I'm quite sure they used the SCAL and over to Western Ave., since that's where the C&NW's coach yard was (still is, now used by Metra) anyway. It actually wouold have been more drawn-out for the eastbound cars, since the switcher would have to take them from North Western Station out to Western Ave., then down and over to the SCAL to the NYC yard. Either way, the cars would have gone through CNW's Spud Yard, now UP's Global 1 intermodal facility.
Union Station is one story below street level, while North Western is one story up from the street or two stories up from Union. (Okay, actually, both stations lie between Canal and Clinton Streets. Canal is elevated to match the level of the streets in the Loop, while Clinton is at ground level. All the east-west streets passing the stations slope down in that block. When I say Union is below and NW is above, I'm referring to the level of Canal.)
David
raildad71 Where can I find such track maps? I am looking for the cb&q as well as the atsf maps for chicago.
Where can I find such track maps? I am looking for the cb&q as well as the atsf maps for chicago.
If you want the greatest track plan known to man for the Santa Fe in Chicago, here is the link:
http://www.railsandtrails.com/Maps/Chicago/index.htm#Dearborn
The map is the third one down the page, and it is titled:
Chicago & Western Indiana RailroadHarrison Street to 22nd Street Track MapDearborn Station
When you first look at the map on that web page, it looks to be a very small and very old map. That is deceiving. The map is actually quite large and detailed, but it requires a special browser to view it properly. The browser is free.
The map format is known as DjVu.
It requires a DjVu Plug-in Browser.
I use a browser provided by a firm called Lizard Tech which you can Google. The actual program required to view a DjVu file is called LizardTech DjVu Control DjVuViewer.exe. You can download it free. Try it. It sounds more complicated than it really is. Let me know if you are able, or unable, to view it. It shows every inch of track from Alton Junction at 22nd Street to Dearborn Station at Polk Street, including the ATSF coach yard at 18th Street.
Take a look at this link.
http://forgottenchicago.com/features/bridge-out-for-good/
If you scroll down the page on that link, you will come across a pair of photos, one photo showing the 16th Street bascule bridge before the South Branch of the Chicago River was straightened and another photo next to it showing the old BOCT bascule bridge that crossed the Chicago River diagonally at Taylor Street, That bascule bridge at Taylor Street was later removed and a new bascule bridge was built at 16th Street next to the SCAL bascule bridge. Today, the BOCT bascule bridge at 16th Street is locked permanently in an upright position.
The Historic American Engineering Record details the history of the SCAL and B&OCT bridges. Highly recommended if this topic is of interest to anyone.
http://www.historicbridges.org/illinois/sbrr/haer-il-157.pdf
pullman jct Prior to 1930, the B&OCT bridge across the South Branch was located north of Roosevelt Road. There was no connection to the RI on the east bank of the South Branch. After 1930, the B&OCT crossed the South Branch on a new bridge at 16th St. New main tracks were installed from the new bridge to Grand Central. At that time a connection was also established between the B&OCT and the RI just NW of Roosevelt and Wells, using the so-called hole in the wall track, which previously had served a RI freight facility at that location. I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say. Here is a photo of the area during the river straightening project. http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/10583.html
Prior to 1930, the B&OCT bridge across the South Branch was located north of Roosevelt Road. There was no connection to the RI on the east bank of the South Branch.
After 1930, the B&OCT crossed the South Branch on a new bridge at 16th St. New main tracks were installed from the new bridge to Grand Central. At that time a connection was also established between the B&OCT and the RI just NW of Roosevelt and Wells, using the so-called hole in the wall track, which previously had served a RI freight facility at that location.
I hope that clarifies what I was trying to say. Here is a photo of the area during the river straightening project.
http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/10583.html
Yes, pullman jct, that does clarify what you said before. Thanks.
That photo of the area during the river straightening project is a great one, really one of the best since you can do a variety of things with it including close-in views of specific areas. I have had that photo for years now and refer to it constantly.
pullman jct I did a little checking last night. The hole in the wall track is a somewhat of a leftover from the days before the South Branch of the Chicago River was straightened. Prior to that project, the RI had small facility in the NW quadrant of the intersection of Wells and Roosevelt Road. I mistakenly identified that intersection as Clark and Roosevelt in a previous post. Sorry for the confusion. There was no connection at that time from the RI to the B&OCT at Roosevelt Road as that was the location of the old B&OCT bridge. The project resulted in a major reconfiguration of B&OCT trackage, after which the hole in the wall track connected to the GC station lead tracks in GC Tower interlocking.
I did a little checking last night. The hole in the wall track is a somewhat of a leftover from the days before the South Branch of the Chicago River was straightened. Prior to that project, the RI had small facility in the NW quadrant of the intersection of Wells and Roosevelt Road. I mistakenly identified that intersection as Clark and Roosevelt in a previous post. Sorry for the confusion.
There was no connection at that time from the RI to the B&OCT at Roosevelt Road as that was the location of the old B&OCT bridge. The project resulted in a major reconfiguration of B&OCT trackage, after which the hole in the wall track connected to the GC station lead tracks in GC Tower interlocking.
So, are you saying that there never was a track running off of the Rock Island track to Grand Central Station?
Or, was there a track that ran from the Rock Island track to Grand Central Station at a later date?
I'll be darned.
I have had a detailed track map from Alton Junction to Dearborn Station for years, but I never noticed one almost insignificant feature.
Coming out of the south end of the ATSF coach yard is a single track labeled "CRI&P" (Rock Island RR). Aha, the infamous ATSF Balloon Track that I mentioned in my previous reply.
It may be a little hard to pick it up on the following diagram, but the balloon track is in the lower left portion of the diagram headed out of the ATSF coach yard. The Rock Island/ NYC tracks are also visible in the diagram.
On pages 54-55 of the October 2004 issue of Trains magazine, there is a detailed track map of the 16th Street Interlocking.
Just south of the 16th Street interlock, there is a spur track running off of the Rock Island tracks heading southwest, and it is labeled "Balloon Track to ATSF". It appears to be a different track than the one used by the Santa Fe to enter its coach yard from the C&WI mainline tracks.
A little north of the 16th Street interlock, there is a spur track runnning off of the Rock Island tracks heading northwest. That spur track is unlabeled, but it may be the B&OCT track that pullman jct. is referring to in his post. That would appear to explain the routing of the SF car from Dearborn Station to the ATSF coach yard and then to Grand Central Station.
The add referred to was a Robert Young administration C&O add, not a NYCentral add.
Bo-Jack, it is my understanding that the track under the SCAL near the river belonged to the RI. At one time they had a dock and freighthouse south of the SCAL on the river bank after it was straightened. I have a very detailed map from 1959 which shows no connection to the C&WI there but it may have connected, depending on the time frame. .
There was a track off the B&OCT at Grand Central that went under Clark and Roosevelt called the hole in the wall track which connected to the RI. So it is possible that the SF car off the Super Chief was pulled down to the SF coach yard, then onto the RI/NYC tracks and then to GC using the hole in the wall track.
There was a way for a car to get to the B&O. The "old heads" from the Santa Fe explained to me the procedure for getting the passing cars to the connecting railroads. When the Chief (or Super Chief in later years) arrived at Dearborn, four switch engine crews would chase the train. The first would pick up the observation car off the train and pull back into the station's interlocking plant. Then, the 3 remaining switchers would pick up the B&O, the NYC, and the PRR cars in that order. The cars were blocked in that order from the rear of the train because of the departure times of the connecting trains and the distance to the respective stations/coach yards. After the passing cars were gone, the switcher chasing the train would double back with the observation car.
After picking up the car, the switcher would pull south to Santa Fe's 18th St. coach yard; where (in good weather) they would be taken through the wash rack and then taken around the "balloon" track so as to have the car facing properly for the connecting railroad. The engine with the B&O car would go back north toward Dearborn to a track connection with the station's owner; the Chicago & Western Indiana. It would then go south a short distance on the C&WI to a track connection leading to the B&O terminal known as the "Hole in the Wall;" so-called because it went under the high fill that was the approach to the St. Charles Air Line drawbridge. (This unoccupied track space can still be seen today.)
Upon emerging from the Hole in the Wall, the engine would either continue north if spotting the car in the B&O terminal, or pull west 2 miles to B&O's Robey St. coach yard.
According to my "old head" contacts in my Santa Few days, there was a way to get the sleepers from Dearborn to every other terminal/coach yard. The procedure as explained to me was that 4 switch engine crews would chase the train arriving at Dearborn with the passing cars; one for the train consist and three for the three different connecting railroad. After arrival, the forst switcher picked up the observation car and pulled back into the terminal plant. Then the switchers for the B&O, NYC, and PRR would each take their cars off in that order. (The cars were cut into line in that order from the rear of the train because of the respective departure time of the connecting trains and the distance to their coach yard.) The switcher handling the main body of the train would then tie back on with the observation car.
As each car was pulled back from Dearborn, the cars were washed (in good weather) and then turned around Santa Fe's "balloon" track so as to have the sleepers facing properly for the connecting railroad. (Santa Fe and IC were the only Chicago passenger railroads that had balloon loops. The rest had more time consuming wyes.)
The B&O car was, after washing and turning, taken north toward Dearborn again; to the track connection with the station's owner, the Chicago & Western Indiana. A short southward movement on the C&WI led to a track connection to the B&O terminal called "The Hole In The Wall;" so-called because it went underneath the high fill of the approach to the St. Charles Air Line bridge. (This vacant track space can still be seen today.) The car would either be spotted on a vacant platform track in the terminal, or pulled west for about 2 miles to the B&O's Robey St. coach yard.
The NYC cars (There were two daily each way for most of the period of transcontinental operations.) would be pulled onto a connecting track right off the Sant Fe's balloon track that went onto the NYC mainline for a trip to either LaSalle St. Station or Root St. coach yard. The PRR car would be taken onto the PRR main line via a track connection at 21st St Crossing and then shoved north either to Union Station or 12th St. coach yard.
There also were though sleepers between the B&O at Grand Central and Santa Fe at Dearborn I have no idea how they made the move. Your luggage would stay aboard and for the passengers.,a limo ride between the two was part of your ticket, with most people (as already mentioned) going down to the Loop in the limo for the layover. If you did, you rode a cab back.
Norman
I remember ads for the NYC showing a pig with a livestock car in the background and a caption stating "A pig can travel from Coast to Coast without changing trains, why can't you?" Thien went on to expalin the through car from New York to Los Angeles.
I wondered about that. That is, whether passengers remained in the cars during the transfer or found another way to get from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station.
Incidentally, for readers unfamilar with Parmalee, the Parmalee Transfer Company was founded in 1853 by Franklin Parmalee to move passengers and baggage between Chicago's downtown railroad terminals. Originally a horse-drawn vehicle, the company evolved into a motor driven van shuttle and limousine service. The City of Chicago granted Parmalee the exclusive franchise for station transfer trade moving passengers and baggage, which the company held until 1971.
I'm not certain of the routing from LaSalle St to CNW CPT but the SCAL route is the most logical and believable. There was enough time between arrival and departure that the circuitous route wouldn't have been an issue. I would think the sleeping car transfer runs would have been given priority over freight moves and the trip might have taken an hour or so one way. The connections would have allowed a straight run without any backup moves. I remember reading that the through passengers were transfered between stations by Parmalee, not in the sleeping cars.
It's very unlikely that CUS trackage was used. Neither PRR nor Milwaukee Road would have any interest in allowing such a move for one thing. Secondly, the corridor along the Milwaukee Road and CNW in the Halsted Ave-Morgan St area was a tangle of freight houses and team tracks. The main tracks didn't connect until Tower A2 at Western Ave, which is where the Rockwell Line connects anyway as mentioned by another poster.
I worked for Santa Fe in Chicago a number of years ago and there were a number of "old heads" who remembered the "passing cars;" as they called the transcontinental sleepers. They said that the cars as often as not were transfered to the coach yard of the respective departing railroad as to the departing train station. The yard location was done to permit servicing and maintenance to the cars, as well enabling them to switched "into line" (i.e., consist order) at the yard instead of at the terminal when departure time would have been imminent.
A story was told by some old heads of an interesting story about the passing cars. Transcontinental passengers had the option, which reportedly most of them took advantage of, to leave their sleeper at the arriving terminal and board again later in the day at the departure terminal to go shopping or sightseeing instead of enduring some boring hours being transferred by a switch engine and sitting in a yard while cleaning and mainetnance were going on. A few passengers did stay with the cars however, particularly during inclement weather.
It seems that a couple traveling to Los Angeles elected to stay with the car for the trip to the coach yard. As the cleaning and maintenance activities took place, word spread throughout the yard that the woman was posing nude in a provocative pose on the couch in their drawing room, with the guy "sketching" her while seated in a corner with his back to the window. (They were probably Hollywood types, who were a regular part of the transcontinental Pullman's clientele.)
Soon, a step ladder had been positioned just outside the respective window, and railwaymen of every craft were standing in line to get a look. Since there had to be a reason for them to be on the ladder, they each spent a few minutes washing the window!
Santa Fe had a reputation as a "clean window" railroad in terms of its passenger service, but that day one of them was cleaner than usual!
Art,
I will PM you.
Rich, I have a scanner but no posting capabilities. Can easily email to someone's email address, though.
Art
artschlosser I have a copy of 'Chicago Union Station - A look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak' by Edward M. Derouin and have been re-reading the parts I'd skimmed over before. On page 33 is a not-to-scale depiction of the 'North Approach and North Joint Tracks - Circa 1959' of Chicago's north side from Union Station over to Western Ave. As track 5 (the east track of two tracks) starts to turn west toward Western Ave., just before leaving CUS ownership and entering joint PRR and MILW ownership, there is first a spur to right to the MILW C&E line (toward Goose Lake) and then a second spur to the right to the 'C&NW'. I wonder if this spur could have been used in switching through Pullmans to the CNW? Anybody know an old Union Station railroader? Art
I have a copy of 'Chicago Union Station - A look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak' by Edward M. Derouin and have been re-reading the parts I'd skimmed over before.
On page 33 is a not-to-scale depiction of the 'North Approach and North Joint Tracks - Circa 1959' of Chicago's north side from Union Station over to Western Ave.
As track 5 (the east track of two tracks) starts to turn west toward Western Ave., just before leaving CUS ownership and entering joint PRR and MILW ownership, there is first a spur to right to the MILW C&E line (toward Goose Lake) and then a second spur to the right to the 'C&NW'. I wonder if this spur could have been used in switching through Pullmans to the CNW?
Anybody know an old Union Station railroader?
Any way you could scan that page so that we can view it here?
Deggesty This afternoon, I remembered that after Grand Central Station was closed, the B&O and C&O began operating their Chicago trains into and out of the North Western Terminal. Is anyone interested in finding out what the routing was? Knowing this may help answer the original question on this thread.
This afternoon, I remembered that after Grand Central Station was closed, the B&O and C&O began operating their Chicago trains into and out of the North Western Terminal. Is anyone interested in finding out what the routing was? Knowing this may help answer the original question on this thread.
Someone recently answered that question on the Trains forum.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/196217/2143812.aspx#2143812
Here is an excerpt with the answer.
I remember being surprised by the slow and convoluted (IMO) route that the C&O trains used to get to the North Western Station, only to realize a little later that it wasn't that much different from the way they got to Grand Central! Instead of hanging a right at Robey Street, they continued north on the C&NW Rockwell Sub to Rockwell Junction. Depending on lateness, the arriving trains would from there either head directly in to the station at Western Avenue, or go west on the main line to Kedzie, and back in (a little over three miles). While C&O and B&O were using the C&NW Station, they had use (perhaps exclusive use) of Tracks 1 and 2.
So, once again, trains had to use the circuitous route through C&NW's Rockwell Sub to the wye at Kinzie, then turn east to proceed into Northwestern Station.
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