This major transit street which still runs at an odd angle to other streets in the area had at one time as many as six electrified tracks in it on two different voltages. After changes in service it later had four, then two, then none. At one end of the street there is still a rail station. City, Systems and Street name. Bonus for connecting services.
Except for the final two blocks, the street in front of the Portland, OR, station runs at an angle to the downtown Portland grid. Possbily the local street railway system and the interurban to Oregon City and Gresham had separate tracks at 600V and the SP subsidiary suburban operation and/or Oregon Electric running south to Eugene had 1200 volts or 1500 volts? This is a truly tough one. I looked at Cincinnati Union Station, Cleveland Public Terminal, Ogden. Wait, I did not check Denver.
Portland and Denver had narrow gauge streetcar systems and standard gauge interurbans. Denver also had narrow gauge interurbans. All Portland's interurbans were standard gauge. I think Oregon Electric south to Eugene used higher than normal voltage. So there would have been good reason for six tracks leading to the Portland RR Sta. It is possible that the SP subsidiary in Portland did not use the street but rather shared SP right-of-way, but that still leaves two other interurban operations, and six tracks in the street seems a possibility. Possibly OER modified their equipment to run on 600 volts as well, and in any case abandoned before the other interurbans, reducing the requirement to one pair of standard and one pair of narrow gauge tracks, then the local system was abandoned before the last interurban, leaving only one pair.
But Denver remains a possibilitiy, with its local Denver Traamways 3-1/2ft gauge system, the same gauge interurbans to Leyden and Golden, and the standard gauge interurban to Golden, but there is no physical reason why the narrow-gauge interurbans could not have always used the local streetcar tracks, so Portland, OR .seems a better bet.
AND HAPPY 4TH!!! OBSERVE IT IN MY OWN SPECIAL WAY
You are correct that it is in the west. The center pair of tracks were 1200 volt, the other two pair 600 volt before the first service reduction, when one of the side pair moved onto the center pair (with reduced voltage) and contined the former 1200 volt line's service for almost another two decades. The other side pair had service dscontinued several years later. There was a lag of around a decade between the end of in-street trackage and the building of the current rail transit station.
Well, then, it must be Oakland or Berkely, where the Key System took over the SP's interurban electric routes in some cases, and reduced voltage in the existing catenary from 1200V dc to 600V dc. Possibly the Key System originally had seperate tracks for its interurban and local streetcar operations, so originallly there were Key local steetcar (possibly at one time a different company), Key interurban, and SP's Interurban Electric, with the new station belonging to BART and either elevated or subway. However, if it is a currently used passenger railroad station, then it may be Emeryville, but probably Beerkeley, since it does not seem like the layout at Oakland's Jack London Square. By railroad station do you mean the BART transit station. All in all my guess is Berkeley.
So look at the map of Berkeley for a wide street at an odd angle...
iT IS THE WIDE STREET AT THE ODD ANGLE,, SINCE THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE ONE DIRECTLY TO THE STATION, OR MAYBE I AM READING THE MAP WRONG. I CERTAINLY LOOK FORWARD TO IGN'S QUESTION. I ASSUME HE DOES HAVE THE FULL AND COMPLETE ANSWER.
IGN has it. Adeline St., is still wide enough for six tracks. Originally from west to east were the streetcar tracks of what later became East Bay Transit (Line 3 in later years), the IER (SP) Shattuck Avenue line, originally steam powered, and the Key System's F line. In 1941 the IER was abandoned, and Key took over the former IER Shattuck Avenue line on Adeline and Shattuck, abandoning its own in street trackage. The EBT streetcars hung on until 1947, Key System until 1958. BART returned rail transit to the area in the early 1970s.
Dave got the City and systems more or less right. IGN is free to ask a new question or defer to Dave.
I assume the illegality was lack of waiting rooms and/or restrooms for people of color.
IGN gave Dave credit for a correct answer but inadvertantly posted it on the other Quiz thread. That would make it your question, Dave.
Right, I saw it. In 1939 it was still possible to travel "The Narrow Gauge Circle" in Colorado and New Mexico. Describe in detail the railroads involved, the trains with names and/or numbers and end-points-stations used, and what accomodation you would have if you wanted the best available. If you can name hotels in overnight stays, that would be a welcome extra, ditto locomotive and car types, etc. If you do not know whether a mixed train sat you in a combine or in a caboose, that is OK.
daveklepper Right, I saw it. In 1939 it was still possible to travel "The Narrow Gauge Circle" in Colorado and New Mexico. Describe in detail the railroads involved, the trains with names and/or numbers and end-points-stations used, and what accomodation you would have if you wanted the best available. If you can name hotels in overnight stays, that would be a welcome extra, ditto locomotive and car types, etc. If you do not know whether a mixed train sat you in a combine or in a caboose, that is OK.
Dave, I'll take a stab at this one.
Denver - Alamosa: D&RGW (Std. Gauge) No. 15 - sleeper or coach
Alamosa - Durango: D&RGW (Narrow Gauge) San Juan (or possibly in 1939 it was still the Colorado-New Mexico Express) - coach or parlor/observation
Durango - Ridgeway: RGS (Narrow Gauge) "Galloping Goose"\
Ridgeway - Montrose: D&RGW (Narrow Gauge) No.319 - Mixed - combine
Montrose - Salida over Marshall Pass; D&RGW (Narrow Gauge ) No. 316 - combine or coach (this may been a mixed train)
Salida - Denver: D&RGW (Std. Gauge) No.2 - coach
Mark
KCSfan Salida - Denver: D&RGW (Std. Gauge) No.2 - coach
I need to make a correction to the above. No.2 was the Scenic Ltd and carried sleepers with both Drawing Rooms and Compartments.
I know the locomotives used on some of the trains and will hazard a guess as to the others.
No. 15, Denver-Alamosa: Pacific or possibly a Mountain type
San Juan, Alamosa-Durango: K-36 Mikado
Durango-Ridgeway: RGS Galloping Goose as mentioned previously
No. 319, Ridgeway-Montrose: Probably a K-27 (Mudhen) Mikado or possibly a K-36
No. 316, Montrose-Salida: K-36 Mikado
No.2, Salida-Denver: Probably a Northern but could have been a Mountain type
I have no idea as to the names of the hotels one might stay in.
I will be happy to have you as the winner to ask the next question. However, I did mean circle, and you included standard gauge to and from Denver. In 1939 it was still possible to travel Salida - Alamosa on a narrow gauge mixed train. The "valley line." Probably in a caboose. If I am wrong and this critical line was abandoned earlier, please correct me. 316 was a regular passenger train, not a mixed if I remember correcctly.
I think 15 was also called the Colorado and New Mexico Express. 316 was called the Shavno (Sp?).
Await the next question.
daveklepper I will be happy to have you as the winner to ask the next question. However, I did mean circle, and you included standard gauge to and from Denver. In 1939 it was still possible to travel Salida - Alamosa on a narrow gauge mixed train. The "valley line." Probably in a caboose. If I am wrong and this critical line was abandoned earlier, please correct me. 316 was a regular passenger train, not a mixed if I remember correcctly.
Dave, I checked both a 1937 and 1941 OG and both issues show the Salida-Alamosa line (the "Alamosa Branch") still in operation but for freight service only. Passenger service was by Rio Grande Trailways bus and the daily bus schedule between the two points is shown in both OG's. This doesn't rule out the possibility that one could ride the line in a freight train caboose if permission was gained from the proper authority. I believe you are right about No. 316 as it is not shown as a mixed train in OG's of that time.
With respect to your next comment, No's 15 and 16 (Alamosa-Durango) are designated as the "Colorado-New Mexico Express" in the 1937 OG but are un-named in the 1941 issue so that name was dropped some time in the interim. I also checked a 1946 OG and no name is shown for 15 and 16 in that issue either. Apparently the trains did not gain a name again until 1951 when, if memory serves me correctly, the name San Juan Express or just San Juan was adopted.
Today's our 54th wedding anniversary and we have a busy day of activities planned so it may be tomorrow before I get a chance to post the next question.
Happy wedding anniversary! And may you have many many more!
Apparently it was possible to get permission to ride the caboose Salida - Alamosa. Whether one was expected to buy a bus ticket is a good question. Nobody local here did it, but maybe you know somebody, and I would not know how to contact an old friend who did.
This is a two part question that refers only to narrow gauge common carrier lines that lasted until the 1940's or later; streetcar and/or transit lines excluded.
1. What railroads were, in whole or part, narrow gauge other than 3' gauge and what was the track gauge of each?
2. What railroads operated both standard and 3' gauge lines?
According to the November, 1939, Guide, the following railroads were narrow gauge (excluding 3 foot gauge)
American R.R. Co. of Porto Rico: 1 meter; Bridgeton & Harrison,:2'; Puerto Rico R.Rs.: 1 meter.
The Guide does not so indicate it, but the Denver & Rio Grande Western R.R. Co. operated both standard and 3' gauge track; East Broad Top R.R. &Coal Co.: 4' 8 ½'’ and 3'; East Tennessee & western North Carolina: 4' 8 ½'’ and 3'; Ferrocarile Unidos Y Yucatan: 4' 8 ½'’ and 3'; Parral & Durango R.R.: 4' 8 ½'’ and 3'; Tionesta Valley R.R.: 4' 8 ½'’ and 3'; United Railways of Havana: 2' 6", 4' 8 ½'’, and 3'
Johnny
Johnny it was my intent to limit this question to only US railroads and I should have stated that specifically.
1. The 2' Bridgeton & Harrison is correct. There was one other that was also a 2' line.
2. The D&RGW, East Broad Top, ET&WNC and Tionesta Valley are all correct. There were four others that had both standard and narrow gauge lines.
The other two-footer was also in Maine, the Monson. The Colorado Southern also had three-foot and standard gauge, as did the Southern Pacific, possibly Pennsylavania's Lancaster Jonesville and Southern. Did the Uintah have a standard gauge yard and switcher to handle transshipping beetween its narrow gauge equipment and the connecting D&RGW standard gauge? What about the Rayonier?
And I did get to see abandoned ties on the abandnoned RofW of the Bridgeton and Harrison, which in its last days ran only south from Harrison to Saco Jc. on the Maine Central, the line north to Bridgeton having been abandoned earlier. But I canoed from Bridgeton to Harrison on Long Lake., summers 1948 and 1949.
The correct answers so far are:
1. Bridgeton & Harrison and Monson - There were no others.
2. D&RGW, EBT, ET&WNC, Tionesta Valley, C&S, SP and PRR (but the Waynesburg & Washington not the Lancaster Jonesville & Southern) - There were two others which haven't yet been mentioned: The Denver & Intermountain and the Arcata and Mad River. OG's show the A&MR as being both Std and 3 '- 9-1/4" gauge but I've not been able to find much info about its NG operations or confirm they were still running at the time.
Dave has four correct answers but Johnny has five so I'll give him the win and the next question.
For those of you stumped, intrigued, or nostalgic for the two footers, I recommend Linwood Moody's The Story of the Maine Two Footers....a classic from 1960 but has been reprinted, too. I just finished reading it and have to go back up there in late September or early October to do some sightseeing. Moody also talks in brief of other 2 footers in New England and elsewhere. Ebay has several copies listed....
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
KCSfan The correct answers so far are: 1. Bridgeton & Harrison and Monson - There were no others. 2. D&RGW, EBT, ET&WNC, Tionesta Valley, C&S, SP and PRR (but the Waynesburg & Washington not the Lancaster Jonesville & Southern) - There were two others which haven't yet been mentioned: The Denver & Intermountain and the Arcata and Mad River. OG's show the A&MR as being both Std and 3 '- 9-1/4" gauge but I've not been able to find much info about its NG operations or confirm they were still running at the time. Dave has four correct answers but Johnny has five so I'll give him the win and the next question. Mark
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