I did go for the Peach Queen at first - then I reread your question and realized it couldn't be right, since it ran in both directions. The New Yorker was the only NB-only train I had heard of. The Southerner was carrying New York- Atlanta Pullmans (along with some others) by 1957.
Until the early 1950s, the New York Central train that left GCT at 9:30PM for Troy NY carried cars for two connecting trains. Even though only two connecting trains were involved, locomotives on the connections could be from three different railroads. Both of the connecting trains were headed to the same ultimate destination city.
A couple of hints: two of the three railroads' locomotives could go all the way to the destination city, one's would always be turned short. The two trains ended up in the same city, but at different stations.
rcdrye I did go for the Peach Queen at first - then I reread your question and realized it couldn't be right, since it ran in both directions. The New Yorker was the only NB-only train I had heard of. The Southerner was carrying New York- Atlanta Pullmans (along with some others) by 1957. Until the early 1950s, the New York Central train that left GCT at 9:30PM for Troy NY carried cars for two connecting trains. Even though only two connecting trains were involved, locomotives on the connections could be from three different railroads. Both of the connecting trains were headed to the same ultimate destination city. A couple of hints: two of the three railroads' locomotives could go all the way to the destination city, one's would always be turned short. The two trains ended up in the same city, but at different stations.
Rob, I believe one train would be the D&H/CP Montreal Ltd. which arrived in Montreal at Windsor Station. I'm guessing the other would be a B&M/Rutland/CN train that arrived in Montreal at Bonaventure Station.
Unfortunately I have misplaced the CD which contains the only OG I have for the time period that would confirm the existence of the second train that I mention.
Mark
The previous posting is the winner, but the Rutland train actually left Troy on the Boston and Maine, and on a few occasions a B&M pacific would subsitute for the Rutland 4-8-2 as far as the junction or perhaps as far as Rutland, but never into Montreal.
You two should come up with a joint question (I'm sure it would be a doozy...)
The NYC train was the New York end of the Mount Royal, but carried cars for the Montreal Limited as well. B&M and Rutland pooled power and crews from Troy to Rutland with the B&M power filling in from time to time as B&M's pool contribution (This same arrangement held for the daytime Green Mountain Flyer). In Rutland the B&M engine came off during the switching to combine the Boston section. The Boston section was also a B&M/Rutland joint train, but power was changed at Bellows Falls. Rutland power ran all the way to Montreal.
To fill in on the hints, the Mount Royal went to Bonaventure Station in Montreal until about 1948 when it shifted to Central. After that time the Rutland engines only went To St. Lambert, where CN electrics took over for the last mile or so. Rutland Power always ran through- to the best of my knowledge only steam though I would love to find out that the RS3's ran that far. D&H trains went to CP's Windsor Station.
After the Rutland dropped the Mount Royal NYC and D&H continued to swap cars on some trains at Troy until 1955 or 1956, after which all the swaps moved to Albany (some trains, like the Laurentian, never swapped at Troy). Troy Union was closed in the late 1950s after the last B&M trains left, and the tracks removed in the early 1970s.
I am happy to defer to RC. Dave
That would make it Mark's question.
rcdrye You two should come up with a joint question (I'm sure it would be a doozy...)
This is my best attempt to come up with a doozy of a question.
It was rare to find a mixed train that carried sleepers and rarer still to find one that carried a dining car. In the late 1930's the consist of the mixed train I have in mind included both a sleeper and a diner. I'm not sure when these cars were dropped and think they may have continued in operation into the 1940's. What railroad ran this train and what was its route?
I would guess it would be the Algoma and Hudson Bay up to Churchill, or whatever the northern end of the line was. Or some other Canadian northern development railroad that ran a train one a day each way.
Not the Algoma and Hudson Bay.
The scheduled times for this route of several hundred miles equated to an average train speed of about 12 mph. - a bit faster northbound than southbound. That speed very likely made this the slowest sleeping car route on the continent.
The Algoma Central never went near Hudson Bay. Oh there were plans at one point, and at one point the name of the railway was Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway, but those plans were abandoned by 1914 when the railway was completed to its northern terminus of Hearst where it connected with the National Transcontinental Railway (later Canadian National) although the "and Hudson Bay" wasn't officially dropped from the name until the 1960s. (Note that the Hudson Bay part of the lettering never appeared on any equipment and the reporting marks were always AC. The only place you'd actually find the full "Algoma Central and Hudson Bay Railway" name would be on paperwork.)
Also the Algoma Central never rostered sleeping cars of any sort at any point in its history (except for converted maintenance of way bunk cars).
The line up to Churchill on Hudson Bay was a Canadian National line. I'm not quite sure who originally built it, probably Canadian Northern. This line did run sleepers. I don't know a lot of the details of the passenger operations along this line in days gone by, but this could be a candidate.
Today this line is operated by the Hudson Bay Railway.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
A shorter option might be the Covington - Hot Springs mixed on the C&O, which carried sleepers into the 1950s at least. Although a diner on a mixed might be unique, sleepers on mixed trains were once fairly common. The Woodstock (VT) Railway regularly carried New York (NH/B&M) Pullmans on its mixed trains into the 1920s. Some of the D&H trains to Adirondack resorts were also mixed. I seem to remember that the Santa Fe's Grand Canyon branch trains were mixed in the last couple of years they ran, though they might not have carried sleepers at that point.
cv_acr The line up to Churchill on Hudson Bay was a Canadian National line. I'm not quite sure who originally built it, probably Canadian Northern. This line did run sleepers. I don't know a lot of the details of the passenger operations along this line in days gone by, but this could be a candidate.
Sorry Chris, but the former Canadian Northern line is not the one I'm looking for.
Today's hint: The railroad that ran this mixed train was jointly owned on a 50/50 basis by two other major railroads.
Since UP trains to Lewiston ID would have to use it, how about the Camas Prairie from Riparia WA to Lewiston (Joint UP/NP)?
Otherwise I would have to guess the Northern Alberta Railways lines north of Edmonton (joint CP/CN after 1929). The Dawson Creek mixed ran until the mid-1970s, though not with sleepers or diners.
February 1950 Guide: 24 hours from Edmonton to Dawson Creek (495.2 miles); 22:55 from Dawson Creek to Edmonton--no mention of being mixed, though it may well have been mixed later. After my morning walk, I may look at later Guides.
Johnny
Northern Alberta Rys. is the road all right but you have the wrong route. The Dawson Creek train carried sleepers in the late 30's but didn't have a diner. Try again.
The other main route went from Edmonton to Waterways. The third option was the Lac La Biche branch.
Mark, the Dawson Creek train had, in 1930 and in 1950, a cafe car from Edmonton that apparently was turned wherever the two trains met.
The Lac la Biche-Waterways train, which left Lac la Biche Wednesday night and Waterways Friday night, had first class coaches, Standard sleepers and a diner (in 1930); I find no mention of its being a mixed train in any of the Guides I looked in. It took about fourteen hours to travel the 170 miles between the two in 1930--in 1950 (no diner then), it took about ten and a half hours.
I wonder if there was any ballast under the track.
The train was unofically known as the "Muskeg Mixed" and ran on the Northern Alberta Ry. between Edmonton and Waterways, AB (a hamlet of less than 1000 pop.) a distance of 304.7 miles. In fact it was two mixed trains in each direction - NB train #21 ran from Edmonton to Lac la Biche and #23 from there on to Waterways; SB #24 ran from Waterways to Lac la Biche and #22 from there to Edmonton. The passenger cars ran through over the entire route and were transferred from one train to another at Lac la Biche. NB trains left Edmonton at 9:30 am and arrived in Waterways at 9:00 the next morning - 23 hrs 30 min - ave. speed 13 mph. SB trains left Waterways at 10:00 am and arrived in Edmonton at 2:35 pm the next afternoon - 28 hrs 35 min due to a long layover between trains at Lac la Biche - ave speed 10.7 mph. OG's in the late 30's noted that,"Nos. 21,22,23 and 24 carry First Class Coaches, Dining Cars and Standard Sleepers".
The Muskeg Mixed ran until 1989 but had lost its dining cars and sleepers long before that time. I personally know of no other mixed train that carried a diner and for this reason alone it's too bad Lucius Beebe didn't include it in his book, Mixed Train Daily.
Rob was the first to identify the railroad and the route so the next question is his.
I meant to add that unlike most mixed trains, I believe the passenger cars on the Muskeg Mixed were steam heated and thus carried directly behind the locomotive. I haven't found any pictures to confirm this but I think it unlikely stoves would be adequate in the harsh Alberta winters. This would make switching freight cars enroute a bit more difficult so perhaps it was done only when train heat was required.
I would think steam heat was required at least half of the year... Now that I'm home and got the map out I realized Lac La Biche is on the Waterways line.
Early streamliners often had articulated cars in their train sets. Except for the mid-1950s experimental lightweeights (Talgo, Train X etc.), only one postwar train got new articulated cars as part of its consist. Name the RR, train and, of course, endpoints. Bonus for the marketing designation of the articulated cars. Turbotrains don't count for this one.
In 1949, Pullman Standard built two three-unit sets for the SP to operate between Oakland and Portland. These cars, Coffeshop-Kitchen-Diner sets, were built for the Shasta Daylight, which was a post-war train which left its origin (Oakland or Portland) in the morning and arrived at its destination (Portland or Oakland) before midnight.
Right route, right railroad, only one of the trains (My fault on the question - The only photo I have seen of the 3-unit cars on the Shasta had a pre-war set from another Daylight. I went back and checked my source to make sure). One set of the postwar cars were advertised as Cascade Clubs, naturally enough on the Cascade. Still - you answered correctly as asked, so please ask the next question.
SP 10262-10263-10264 and 10265-10266-10267 were delivered in May or June 1949 by Pullman-Standard for the Shasta Daylight, inaugurated July 10, 1949.
66 seat Coffee Shop - Kitchen Unit - 66 seat Dining Room Unit
SP 10280-10281-10282 and 10283-10284-10285 were delivered in August 1949 by Pullman-Standard for the Cascade, inaugurated August 13, 1950.
Dormitory Kitchen - 44 seat Dining Room - Tavern Lounge
All of SPs other articulated cars were delivered between 1937 and 1941. They were used just about everywhere after their original assignments ended, at least a few of them making it into Amtrak service with stainless steel sides, the red stripe buffed off and a blue square with Amtrak and the car number on the side.
Rob, I was going to ask what other train, already in service before the war, had new articulated sets built for it--but you answered the question.
While on the subject of diners and kitchens, what railroads (four of them) had full diners and kitchen-combinations built for them, and what other railroad operated such combinations (these were NOT articulated sets)?
rcdrye All of SPs other articulated cars were delivered between 1937 and 1941. They were used just about everywhere after their original assignments ended, at least a few of them making it into Amtrak service with stainless steel sides, the red stripe buffed off and a blue square with Amtrak and the car number on the side.
Those cars would include the Lark Club triple unit Kitchen/Dorm-Dining-Lounge combination and the units for the Daylight (Coffee Shop-Kitchen-Dining room).
Deggesty While on the subject of diners and kitchens, what railroads (four of them) had full diners and kitchen-combinations built for them, and what other railroad operated such combinations (these were NOT articulated sets)?
Non articulated kitchen cars and dining room cars were built for the PRR, NYC and the C&O. Eight sets were built for the C&O, but were sold immediately: 2 sets for the IC, 2 sets for the ACL and 4 sets for the NYC. Later on the NYC sold its ex-C&O sets: 2 sets went to the IC and the other two went to the B&O,
The fourth was the UP. It had a bunch of prewar articulated kitchen/diners, but it bought two new sets (non-articulated) from ACF in 1953 for the City of Denver, which were delivered with a single car number for each pair. SCL occasionally operated the ex-ACL dining room cars without the kitchens as entertainment cars on the Florida Special. PRR had cars from ACF, Budd and their own shops. The PRR Budd kitchen/diners survived to see Amtrak service (often on the Broadway Limited!) but not HEP conversion.
rcdrye The PRR Budd kitchen/diners survived to see Amtrak service (often on the Broadway Limited!) but not HEP conversion.
The PRR Budd kitchen/diners survived to see Amtrak service (often on the Broadway Limited!) but not HEP conversion.
I was fortunate to ride in one of those Budd diners on my first Amtrak trip in 1972 on the Broadway. In the mid 1980's I saw a pair still in Pennsy colors at the Illinois Railway Museum, of all places.
Rob, you have it. UP and C&O ordered full diner and kitchen-combos. I ate breakfast in one of the diners that the IC bought, and I had forgotten about the ACL combos.
I think that Amtrak operated the full diners in conjunction with regular diners that had been reworked to serve as cafeteria cars; I ate in such on the Crescent in 1984, and my wife and I ate in such on the Silver Star in 1989; we may eaten in such on the Silver Meteor also in 1989--I really do not remember. On Amtrak, we were not allowed to carry our trays to a table a waiter carried them.
Wait--ZO answered more than rcdrye; he not only named the fourth road that ordered new sets, he also named the roads that bought used sets and operated them.
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