Requring public ownership of a system that had been a privately owned and operated, I think the Geary Street route was the first to operate under these allegations of a communist attitude.
Geary Street was Muni's first line. But what really mattered was directly competing with private Market Street Railway cars on Market Street itself and then building the Twin Peaks and Sunset Tunnels for its exclusive use to take business away from Market Street which could not use the tunnels and had a much longer and slower route to the points they reachedf.
My apoligies for not getting back here sooner
San Francisco was not the first government to reallocate private property in this way. Street railway's were generally franchises and as such were subject to the political winds of various politicos. In San Francisco people came to dislike much of corruption involved with the United Railways(Southern Pacific controlled the United Railways)(especially in the wake of the 1906 earthquake). The takeover of franchises was part off at was part of the act that created Muni.
However Muni was/is a first in this country for a major city. Think in a more general way.
Thx IGN
Agaiin, Mini was the first municipal operation that ran a service directly competing with a franchised private company, with the four tracks on Market Street, two inside for Market Street Railway and its Predicessor, United, and the outer two tracks for MUNI. Other cities, New York and Washington DC, also had competing operations on the same street, but they belonged to two private companies, not a municipal operation and a private franchised company. The usual practice was to share the tracks. In New York, this often meant two slots for two power conduit systems.
Other Municipal operations, such as Detroit, that began while private companies operated, were new lines to provide service to areas that the private company did not feel justified the investment.
There were other places were there were two tracks on one street. 42nd Street between 10th Avenue and 12th Avenue had four tracks, two for New York Railways ("Green LInes", General Motors owned after 1926, and Third Avenue Railway, both private companies.
Another first for San Francisco was ending the franchise of a private company's cable operation and replacing it with a Municipal electric streetcar line.
Also while Detroit did start a government owned operation they did not start til 1920. SF Muni predated that in 1912.
Narig, was not the 1920 date the date when the basic United streetcar system was moved from private to city ownership and became the Detroit Department of Street Railways? I think up to that date there was a Detroit Civic Railway that did build a few lines into areas where United would not provide service. OIften these were single-track lines run by second hand four-wheel cars and then the earliest Birney four-wheel safety cars. I think there were two or three such lines. Of course they were also merged into DSR.
I may be wrong,. and if you have the correct dates, please correct me!
Dave I will give to you the honor of the next question.
The answer I was looking for was this SFMuni was the first major operation by a government of a public transit system. While the take over of Geary St was the begining it was the major expansion with the Sunset and Twin Peaks tunnels that made Muni a major operation. The freewheeling expendures(to quote the Hearst papers) of money from city coffers that was the complaint.
San Francisco's Municipal Railway celebrates 1000 years of operation next year FYI.
PS six states in three words oy voy good one.
WOW San Francisco is celebrating 1000 yrs.
While we are on transit, name all USA and Canadian cities and towns that operated PCC cars in street transit service as well as those doing so now, excluding all high-floor "heavy-rail" rapid transit lines that may have paid royalties to Tranist Research for use of some PCC ideas and equipment. And name those that had two separate systems operating PCC's. No need to mention any but the main city of a metropolitan concubation. Example: Boston suffices. No need to add Cambrdige, Newton, Mitlon, Mattapan, etc.
Don't answer unless you can name at least one city with two operators and and at least ten cities in total.
Here goes: 1. Boston 2. Brooklyn 3. Philadelphia 4. Washington DC 5. Pittsburgh 6. Johnstown PA 7. Cleveland (Cleveland Rys and Shaker Heights Rapid Transit) 8. Detroit 9. Chicago 10. St Louis 11. Kansas City 12. Dallas 13. El Paso 14. San Francisco 15. Los Angeles (Los Angeles Ry and Pacific Electric) 16. San Diego 17. Montreal 18. Toronto
narig01 Dave I will give to you the honor of the next question. The answer I was looking for was this SFMuni was the first major operation by a government of a public transit system. While the take over of Geary St was the begining it was the major expansion with the Sunset and Twin Peaks tunnels that made Muni a major operation. The freewheeling expendures(to quote the Hearst papers) of money from city coffers that was the complaint. San Francisco's Municipal Railway celebrates 1000 years of operation next year FYI. Thx IGN PS six states in three words oy voy good one.
Oops 100 years. this is what happens when you use a smart phone. Typos Typso galore uncorrectable. (til you get to your home PC)
thx IGN
One of the other cities you mentioned also had two operators. Like to state which one (in additon to Cleveland and Los Angeles). There was also one additional Canadian city and two other locations on the NEC. One city not mentioned is an oddball, but still a transit service. Does not add a new state, however. One city not mentioned was a source for cars for a city mentioned. Altogether there were about 25. Plus two Mexican, Mexico City and Vera Cruz. But you clearly know your streetcars and I have to declair you a winner. But you or someone can try to add the several that are missing from your list. Inlcuding one small new operation.
I look forward to your next question.
Louisville?
Louisville bought cars, had a few painted for them actually on the property, but then sold the whole batch to Cleveland. But the Twin Cities had an extensive PCC fleet, which later saw service divided up between Shaker, New Jersey Transit's Newark Subway, and Mexico City. Some are now in San Francisco on the F line. In addition to missing the Twin Cities and Newark, the list did omitted Baltimore, and it and Newark are, of course, on the NEC. Also missing was Birmingham, AL, and Cincinnati. St, Louis was mentioned, but not as having two systems. Illinois Terminal had a local operaton from its St, Louis subway terminal across the McKinley Bridge into Grant City, and bought ten double-end, end-door mu PCC's for the service, the smallest PCC fleet of any operator. Johnston PA was the smallest city with PCC's but IT in St. Louis had the smallest fleet. In Canada, Vacouver also ran PCC's in addition to Montreal and Toronto. An now we have Waukeegan, IL, a new operator, and then there is Fort Worth with Tandy Department store.
daveklepper An now we have Waukeegan, IL, a new operator, and then there is Fort Worth with Tandy Department store.
An now we have Waukeegan, IL, a new operator, and then there is Fort Worth with Tandy Department store.
Dave, my wife and I were married in Waukegan in 1959 and she still has family living there which we visit. There hasn't been a streetcar running in Waukegan for at least 55 years. The current operation that you are thinking of is in nearby Kenosha, WI.
Mark
Pardon my Dislexia. Of course I meant Kenosha, WIS, not Waukegan, IL. Waukeegan's streetcars were part of the North Shore system and consisted of some modern double-truck safety cars moved from Milwaukee to help with the Great Lakes demand for local transportation, the fleet of single-truck Birneys that had been the mainstay since 1920 or so, and some old double-truck deck roof wood cars that helped out only during rush hours . I think the local cars went bus in stages after WWII and quit completely when the North Shore cut back its Shore Line local trains from downtown to 10th Street, the beginning of PRW off-street operatation, and then of course abandoned the Shore Line compeltely but still served Waukegan until the Milwaukee Skokie Valley trains quit about 1962 or 1963/
Kenosha's local cars were part of The Milwaukee Electric, and quit after WWII. even before that interurban quit. But there is a downtown circulator loop now running with about 8 rehabbed PCC's availble for service.
css......: Don't forget to ask the next question!
One of the previous posts helped suggest this question. North Shore operated local streetcars in the Waukegan-North Chicago area. In which other city did North Shore operate local streetcars, and what was an unusual feature of its operation?
I gave the answer away earlier, when I noted that the most modern of the Waugekan local cars, the double-truck lightweights, were moved from MILWAUKEE (where they were replaced by single-truck Birneys from Waukegan) to help with the terrific increase in local traffic because of activities at Great Lakes Navel Base. There were several things unique about the North Shore's Milwaukee local service. The first was that transfers were issued only to and from one of The Milwaukee Electric's city-wide streetcar and bus routes, the North Avenue line, I think route 10. Transferring to any of the TM's routes required a second fare. Second, part of the tracks of the local line, north of where the interurbans turned east into the North Shore's MIlwaukee terminal and yard, were also use by the West Allis route, forget the number, of TM. They continued to use this North Shore trackage even after the North Shore stopped using it. Finally, south of the city, onto the private right of way, the local North Shore's streetcars had to obey regular railroad signals and wait for the proper signal before using the reversing crossover at the southern end of the line. And I believe they carried tale end marker lights, which had to be moved or switched electrically when changing ends.
We have a winner! Daveklepper has the honor of the next question.
The St. Charles Streetcar line in New Orleans is the oldest continuously operated streetcar line in Norht America, continuously operated except for outages because of natural calamaties, etc. But that is based on its origination as a steam dummy line and then a horsecar line before electrification.
Richmond, VA, 1887, had the first horsecar line converted to trolley wire electrification with the technology that continues to be used today with onlyi minor modifications. But Rihcmnond streetcar service, excellent thought it truly was, ended shortly after WWII. Which line followed shortly after the Richmond electrification that is still a streetcar trolley line or light rail line today? The oldest one still operating? And promises to continue operating for many, many years to come? One hint: Only part of the original line is still in service on the same street on the same location. And of course the equipment is vastly different. Another: Frank Julian Sprague was also inolved in this electrification.
The Medea Line in Philadlephia operated today by SEPTA?
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The PRR Media line was electrified around 1920. PRR steam before that. The Red Arrow Media Line about 1907. I am not sure if Media - Red Arrow ever had horsecars. I think is was built as a suburban trolley line. I am referring to somthing far earlier, and it is a streetcar line, not a suburban railroad line, and always has been, except that today it is referred to as "Light Rail." The tracks' right of way may never have been used by Steam Dummies, but they certainly were use by horsecars.
Hints: The specific trackage should be declaired a national monument, but is not as yet. Yet the downtown operation of the current route does use a facility declaired a national monument and opened about 10 years after the electrification of the specific trackage. If one rides the line today one sees a sign refering to a specific amount of time to a specific destination, and a the same location, a very well-known Saint.
More hints, In addition to a Saint and a large sign with time informaton, at one time or another the cars carried a sign associated with a body of water. May be they still do, but the location could also be referred to by a specific street layout.
Current operation is by three-truck articulated cars, two manufactures, but one of them low-floor. And these are the second and third groups of LRV'as on line, replacing the first group which replaced PCC's which replace equipment that absolutely required a conductor.
Need more hints?
For many years streetcars through the PCC era had a traditional type of paint job, but the first group of 3-truck articulated LRV's now retired, brought a radical change which had continued to be used with the two types operating. But the traditional scheme CAN be enjoyed elsewhere on a light rail line operation in the overal transit system.
I can think of one system which seems to match most of your hints, out in the western US. However, I believe that they currently only use one model of LRV, which is not exclusively low-floor (but the stairs can adjust to street-level operation), but otherwise has Saint, body of water, color scheme changes, right time-frame, etc.
Good one, Dave!
Look. Sprague did Richmond in 1887. This doesn't operate any more. A head of a an eastern, not western, transit system running horsecars visited Richmond that very year and immediately hired Sprague to electrify the system. Part of this line still operates as a downtown to suburb light rail line line. Think about what system could be electrified right after Sprague and that meets the other requirements stated.
The outer end of the line terminal was what was associated with a body of water and the carhouse there still has the name. It has become the main maintenance center for the transit system's major multi-route network and is right adjacent to a second much more recent route and has direct track connections to a third route that is almost as old, in part, as the route under question.
Again, entrance to the landmarked facility, first of its kind in the USA, occured only 11 years after electrification. The facility has been vastly expanded, and only the original part is landmarked.
What current light rail - streetcar system has three lines with direct (one of them almost direct) to the carhouse and shop that has a name associate with a body of water? The oldest of the three lines is the one in question and the car house is at the end of that line from downtown.
This should be a snap. And a sign with the time of travel to a destination with an nearby sign with a popular saint?
I cannot imagine not getting an answer now.
THE SPRAGUE ELECTRIC ROAD AT BOSTON
Science, Volume XII, No. 308, December 28, 1888
by American Association for the Advancement of Science)
We take pleasure in presenting our readers in this issue of our paper with a general view of the new electric street-railway between Boston and Brookline, installed by the Sprague Electric Railway and Motor Company of New York. There have been several trial trips made over this railway already, to test the apparatus, which has been found to be perfect, and the road will be put into commercial operation in a few days.
The West End Street Railway of Boston, of which this road is a part, is the largest street-railway in the world. It extends over 212 miles of track, using 1,700 cars and more than 9,000 horses. The president of the West End Street Railway Company, Mr. Henry M. Whitney of Boston, is universally recognized as being one of the most enterprising and successful street-railway men in the country, and, aided by an efficient corps of assistants, has succeeded in giving Boston since his administration the most efficient street-railway service which ever existed in that city.
Before deciding upon any electric system to be adopted upon the West End Road, President Whitney, accompanied by members of the board of directors and managers, visited all the principal electric railways in the country operated upon the various systems, including visits upon three different occasions to Richmond, Va., to inspect the famous electric road in operation there upon the Sprague system. After a most careful examination of all these different roads, the contract for equipping the West End Road was awarded by the board of directors to the Sprague Electric Railway and Motor Company of New York.
This system of electric railway called for in this contract is wide and comprehensive. The main line from Boston westward, beginning at Park Square, will run down Boylston Street bridge, and then down Chester Park to Beacon Street. It will then proceed over the Beacon Street extension to the Chestnut Hill Reservoir, and to Allston, and Oak Square, Brighton. From the East Park gate, over the new boulevard to the Chestnut Hill Reservoir and Brighton, the Sprague overhead system will be adopted; in the more crowded streets of the city the Bentley-Knight conduit will be used ; and the Sprague cars will run over the whole system.
The power-station from which the electric current is distributed to the line is situated on Braintree Street, Allston, near the Boston and Albany Railroad, and also at the edge of the water, thus giving both water and rail facilities for fuel. This building, which is the most perfect electric plant of its kind in the country, is situated very nearly equidistant from the extremities, and is therefore literally a central station. The station, with the adjoining car-house, is of brick, and completely fire-proof.
In its construction it was the aim of the West End Company to get the best in every detail. The chimney-stack is 100 feet high. The boiler-house, which is both convenient and commodious, is at present equipped with three horizontal tubular boilers, furnished by the Jarvis Engineering Company. The engine-room contains two high-speed automatic cut-off engines of the Armington & Sims pattern, of 200 horse-power each. Each drives two powerful dynamos of 80,000 watts each, and wound for a maximum pressure of 500 volts. These dynamos are of the highest efficiency and simplest construction, and, if need be, can be placed under the charge of the steam-engineer. The dynamos feed into copper bus wires, supported on the walls by porcelain insulators.
Each machine has its independent ampere meter, and in addition there is a general ampere meter at the end of the positive bus bar. From this bar the current passes to special snap-switches, each switch being connected through a three-plug safety-switch back to one of the feeders supplying current to the main line-wire. These feeder-wires tap into the line-wire at different points on the line of road, thus maintaining the pressure approximately equal all along the line. At the ends of the feeders in the central station, pressure indicators are attached, which indicate the voltage at the junctions of the feeders with the main current-wire.
The engine-room is brilliantly lighted by handsome hanging electroliers, each of which has five incandescent lamps. A switchboard at one end of the room furnishes an independent control for each group of lamps. All the surroundings of the machines are kept in the neatest condition.
Adjoining the power-house, but separated by thick brick walls, is a commodious house for accommodation of cars, 107 feet long by 80 feet deep, designed to hold 24 cars.
The overhead system, which is built under the Sprague patents, is of the finest description, and includes iron poles set in concrete throughout the entire length of the road. These poles are of a very neat and tasteful pattern, and support the span-wires which carry the trolley-wire at a height of 18 feet over the centre of the track. This overhead wire, which is used for a working conductor. is made of silicon bronze, of the small Sprague type, only three-sixteenths of an inch in diameter. This is the only wire suspended over the middle of the track, and its lightness and high tensile strength allow the overhead supporting structure to be of the lightest description possible. The poles are 125 feet apart.
The return circuit is through the rail, and thence by both metallic and ground circuits to the station. Each section of rail is joined to copper ground wires throughout the length of the road underneath the string-pieces. At intervals of 500 feet this ground wire is connected to an earth plate, and at seven points widely distributed. The ground wire is connected to the station, and there is also a main ground connection made there through a large sinkplate.
In the overhead system a new method of switching has been adopted, which is at once ingenious and simple. Five or six feet inside the turnouts a small switch with flaring rider is interpolated into the main and branch wires, and a spring tongue upon this directs the path of the trolley with absolute certainty and ease. By this means, switching is made very easy, and all danger of the trolley leaving the wire is obviated.
The cars can be run at widely different speeds, varying from the slowest crawl to twelve or more miles per hour. They can be started and stopped without the use of brakes in the space of three or four inches, and, when making the normal running speed, can, in an emergency, be stopped and reversed without brakes within less than a quarter of a car length. This is especially advantageous in crowded thoroughfares, and shows the superiority of the electrical car over the horse or cable cars. The control over the car seems marvellous, for one sees little or nothing save an almost imperceptible movement of the hand of the motor-man ; and the starting, although prompt, is very gradual and without shock or jar. The ordinary driver can operate one of these cars without the slightest trouble, after a very brief instruction. The saving on the operating cost of the Sprague system, owing to the superior quality of the apparatus, over an ordinary horse-car line, constitutes a no inconsiderable item. It has been found that the average cost of motive power per car a day throughout the United States - that is, for from ten to eleven hours, and trips aggregating from forty-five to fifty miles - is about four dollars, and this counts only those horses on actual duty on the road. The cost of motive power per day per car for equal mileage in Richmond is less than two dollars on the heaviest sort of grade-work, and at Boston it is estimated that even this low cost of operation will be reduced. For winter use upon this road the Sprague Company is equipping three electric 'working-cars,' furnished with snow-ploughs, brushes, ice-cutter, and salt-distributer, and each propelled by two powerful 30-horsepower motors. In front of the car is a revolving wheel which breaks up the snow-crust completely, and behind are revolving brushes which sweep the tracks clean. It is estimated that this 'working-car ' will clear a street-railway track after a heavy storm more quickly than the ordinary snow-plough drawn by 12 horses.
The system of wiring which the West End management has adopted for the crowded city streets is the Bentley-Knight conduit, now in use in Allegheny City, Penn. [Pittsburgh]. Here the conduit is laid midway between the tracks, and is strongly bolted to the stringers and sleepers. Its cross-section is about a foot square, and its upper part has a slot similar to that used in cable-railways; its width, however, being only five-eighths of an inch, giving an opening so small that carriage-wheels will not catch in it. Besides this, it is so bevelled that horseshoe calks will not be held in it. Copper bars an inch and a quarter thick, one on each side of the slot, firmly insulated beneath it, carry the current, -one from the dynamo, and the other returning from the motors. The current is taken from the conductors to the motors by ' ploughs,' as they are called, two to each car. These ploughs are thin iron plates about ten inches square, hung from a framework over the middle of the track, and projecting into the slot. The motors are connected by controlling switches, and the car is operated substantially as is the overhead system. The ploughs are so arranged that they can be lifted out of the slot when any obstruction is reached. The current is taken up and returned by spring-plates, which slide along the copper conductors at the bottom of the plough.
In switching, two ordinary tongue-switches are used, - one in the conduit, and one on the rail. Brushes attached to the snowploughs and cars easily keep the conduit and tracks clear, even in the severest snow-storm or in case of slushy and muddy weather.
The change from the overhead system to the conduit is made while the car is in motion, and without the slightest delay in travel or inconvenience to passengers; so that the Sprague cars run over the entire distance.
The kind of truck used upon this road is the latest Sprague improved truck, which has been fully described in these columns. The equipment of this truck includes the new Sprague 'Boston' motor, which will be used, for the first time in commercial work, upon this road.
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