adkdivfanJust to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.
Just to add to the confusion, the names "Broadway Ltd" & "Pennsylvania Ltd" were switched to other services late in the game. In the 50's, PRR 1/2, an all-Pullman extra-fare service known as the Pennsylvania Limited, was dropped, and the name was attached to a train previously known as 'The Gotham". The better-known switch occurred in 12/67 when 28/29 were discontinued and the "Broadway" name was applied to the General.
What you describe was more of the rule rather then the exception. In the Amtrak era there is a false sense of stability as far as passenger train nomenclature is concerned. For better or worse, excepting a few de luxe trains that were more or less stable, the passenger train names here in the US and Canada were more or less a capricious endeavor, with names appearing and disappearing with regularity. It wasn't until the late 1920's that railroads discovered that train names had marketing value and by the time streamliners began appearing, you begin to see branding of passenger train services by the use of fleet names.
Passenger train names has been one of my primary railroad-related interests ever since high school, and at this point I have a database of thousands of train names and variants of names going back to the 1880's. About 300 of those names can answer the current question about passenger train names that contained railroad names in them.
So bring on some more answers!
Before fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called;
The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr.
and
The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket.
Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN.
This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad. Then city names replaced the railroad names.
daveklepperBefore fleet names were adopted for fleets, the first trains of the type were called; The Burlington Zephyr, not just the Zephyr. and The Rock Island Rocket, not just the Rocket. Inclusion of the railroad name in the advertising and promotion as part of the train name identified the product as TRAIN. This lasted only as long as there was only one on each railroad. Then city names replaced the railroad names.
That may be true, but generally the railroad name was used in conjunction with the train name in promotional and marketing efforts only. The names I have been requesting were actually in the railroad schedule and consist listings. Ironically, one of the railroads you mentioned, the Burlington, did actually name their trains with the railroad name on a consistent basis in the late 1890's-early 1900's.
Examples are:
Burlington's Denver Express
Burlington's Number One
Burlington's Number Two
Burlington's Vestibule Express
In that case, there must also have been a:
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2
Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express
But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about!
Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge?
South Park Limited
South Park Express
Rio Grande Southern Express?
Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special
daveklepperIn that case, there must also have been a: Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1 Nope Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2 Nope Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express Nope But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about! Nope Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge? Nope South Park Limited Nope South Park Express Nope Rio Grande Southern Express? Nope Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special Nope - I don't think the Virginian ever had a named train.
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 1 Nope
Fort Worth and Denver City No. 2 Nope
Fort Worth and Denver City Denver Express Nope
But a Forth Worth and Denver City Vestibule Express I am not so sure about! Nope
Colorad and Southern Limited? Possibly even narrow gauge? Nope
South Park Limited Nope
South Park Express Nope
Rio Grande Southern Express? Nope
Virginian Express or Virginian Limited or Virginian Special Nope - I don't think the Virginian ever had a named train.
The Burlington's Number One and Burlington's Number Two that I previously mentioned were displayed as such - not Burlington's No. 1/Burlington's No. 2.
One RR that used names of other railroads in their composite names was the PRR in their New York-Washington service. Look there for inspiration.
The railroads that ran through cars to New York over the PRR would then have their equipment in trains labeled:
The Seabord Express or Seabord Limited
The Coast Line Express or Coast Line Limited
The Chesapeak and Ohio Express or Chesapeak and Ohio Limited
The Southern Express or Southern LImited
I think one of these has already been posted.
I cannot imagine an RF&P express. Their only fast train that did not run south of Richmond was the Blue and Grey, and any through cars to NY were probably handled on regular PRR trains.
There was definetly an Atlanta and New Orleans Express, but that was not the name of a railroad, as far as I know.
daveklepperThe railroads that ran through cars to New York over the PRR would then have their equipment in trains labeled: The Seabord Express or Seabord LimitedThe Seaboard Air Line name was used on various ways on the PRR:Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line ExpressSeaboard Air Line ExpressSeaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line and Washington and New York Express...and others... The Coast Line Express or Coast Line LimitedThe Atlantic Coast Line name was used in various ways on the PRR:Atlantic Coast Line ExpressAtlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line ExpressAtlantic Coast Line and Southern Railway Expressand others... The Chesapeak and Ohio Express or Chesapeak and Ohio Limitedboth yes, The Southern Express or Southern LImitedNope, the SR was always represented as the "Southern Railway" in various names. I think one of these has already been posted. I cannot imagine an RF&P express. Their only fast train that did not run south of Richmond was the Blue and Grey, and any through cars to NY were probably handled on regular PRR trains.There was no RF&P express on the PRR. Train name would include the "Richmond" in the name. Those trains would carry through cars to and from Richmond.
The Seaboard Air Line name was used on various ways on the PRR:
Seaboard Air Line and Atlantic Coast Line Express
Seaboard Air Line Express
Seaboard Air Line, Atlantic Coast Line and Washington and New York Express...
and others...
The Atlantic Coast Line name was used in various ways on the PRR:
Atlantic Coast Line Express
Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line Express
Atlantic Coast Line and Southern Railway Express
both yes,
Nope, the SR was always represented as the "Southern Railway" in various names.
There was no RF&P express on the PRR. Train name would include the "Richmond" in the name. Those trains would carry through cars to and from Richmond.
The Southern Railway and FFV Express or the FFV and Southern Railway Express.
Cars from one of the Soouthern's trains were combined with cars from the Fast Flying Viginian (C&O) and run both ways as one train. The Southern, not the C&O, diner ran through to NYC.
daveklepperThe Southern Railway and FFV Express or the FFV and Southern Railway Express. Cars from one of the Soouthern's trains were combined with cars from the Fast Flying Viginian (C&O) and run both ways as one train. The Southern, not the C&O, diner ran through to NYC.
When did this name exist? I don't have this on my list. Based on my research, C&O through cars to and from New York tended to run on a PRR train that was named "C&O" somewhere within its name.
Check Fred Westing's Apex of the Atlantics book on the E-6!
I guess I will have to research that book myself and give you the dates recorded in it.
daveklepperI guess I will have to research that book myself and give you the dates recorded in it.
Unfortunately, I don't have that book. If you can give me the dates that particular train ran I could appreciate it.
Also, my computer hard drive crashed and as a result I spent the last few days "off line" in getting it back in order. Ill give this question another day and Ill tally the results.
I will get back to you. It was in the period when E6's were handling the premium NY-DC trains, before the K4's took over.
You are probably more right than I am on this subject. On page 103 of the Westing Apex of the Atlantics, the 1914 PRR train No. 56 is identified as the F. F. V. - Southern Railway Express, but on Page 104 it is identified as the C & O - Southern Railway Express, same train number, same year.
daveklepperYou are probably more right than I am on this subject. On page 103 of the Westing Apex of the Atlantics, the 1914 PRR train No. 56 is identified as the F. F. V. - Southern Railway Express, but on Page 104 it is identified as the C & O - Southern Railway Express, same train number, same year.
As I had mentioned in an earlier forum entry, names of passenger trains before the 1920's was a capricious affair and unfortunately, this has crept into rail enthusiast publications..
OK, its time the wrap this question up. The responses I received were as follows:CSSHEGEWISCH Erie Limited - Erie - New York-Chicago Alton Limited - C&A - Chicago-St. Louis Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo Pere Marquette - PM - Detroit- Detroit-Grand Rapids; Grand Rapids-Chicago North Western Limited - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisHENRY6 Rutland Flyer - Rutland - Wabash Cannon Ball - Wabash- St. Louis-DetroitDAVEKLEPPER Pennsylvania Limited - PRR - New York-Chicago Pere Marquette - PM - Chicago-Grand Rapids Lackawanna Limited - DLW - New York-Buffalo Nickel Plate Limited - NKP - Chicago-Buffalo Katy Flyer - MKT - St. Louis-Texas C&O Express - PRR - New york-Washington C&O Limited - C&O - Washington-ChicagoADKDIVFAN Rio Grande Zephyr - DRGW - Denver-Ogden Erie-Lackwanna Limited - EL - New York-Chicago Pennsylvania Special - PRR - New York-ChicagoThanks to all who participated. I'm going to give the nod to daveklepper through his tenacity even though he and csshegwisch technically were tied - daveklepper had some entries that cssegwisch entered.As for the other possible answers, as mentioned earlier, I have nearly 300 names and variations of names that would have qualified for this question. For the sake of brevity and to move on with this forum, Ill give some of the highlights of my list.The greatest portion of names that qualified were from the PRR in their New York-Washington service. In carrying cars beyond Washington via the C&O, Southern Railway, SAL, ACL and Norfolk and Western, the PRR designated their New York-Washington trains to reflect the extra through cars in various ways:- New York and Washington Express/Washington and New York Express along with the connecting railroad name(s),- After 1932, one of the named trains, such as the President, Legion, Arlington, etc., along with the connecting railroad name(s),- Naming a run utilizing the connecting railroads names exclusively.This practice existed from the 1880's up to the 1950's.
As for trains from other railroads, here's a sample:ACL Express - RFP/ACL - Washington-JacksonvilleAtlantic Coast Line Limited - ACL/RFP/PRR - Jacksonville-New YorkB&A Southwestern - B&A/NYC - Boston-ClevelandB&A Wolveriene - B&A/NYC/MC - Boston-ChicagoB&O Express - LV - New York-BuffaloBig Four Limited - NYC/B4 - New York-St. Louis/CincinnatiC&O Resort Special - PC/CO - New York-White Sulphur SpringsC&O Special - B4/C&O - St. Louis-WashingtonFlorida East Coast Limited - PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC - New York-Jacksonville-Miami-Key WestFrisco Express - CEI - Chicago-St. LouisFrisco Limited - Frisco - Birmingham-Kansas CityFrisco Special - CEI - Chicago-St. LouisGreat Northern Express - CBQ/GN - Kansas City-Billings-SeattleGreat Northern Flyer - St. Paul-SeattleGreat Northern Limited - St. Paul-SeattleGreat Western Daylight - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisGreat Western Limited - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisGreat Western Special - CGW - Chicago-MinneapolisKaty Special - MKT - St. Louis-TexasMichigan Central Express - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoMichigan Central Limited - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoMichigan Central Special - NYC/MC - New York-ChicagoNew York Central Limited - B4 - St. Louis-clevelandNew York Central Limited - B4/LSMS/NYC - St. Louis/Cincinnati-New YorkNorth Western Mail - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisNorth Western Special - C&NW - Chicago-MinneapolisNorthern Pacific Express - CBQ/NP - Chicago-SeattleNorthern Pacific Limited - NP - St. Paul-WinnepegRio Grande Express - DRG - Denve-Grand JunctionSanta Fe Eight - ATSF - Los Angeles-ChicagoSeaboard Fast Mail - SAL - Hamlet-AtlantaSeaboard Air Line Local - SAL - Hamlet-ColumbiaSeaboard Florida Limited - PRR/RFP/SAL - New York-MiamiSeaboard Mail - RFP/SAL - Washington-JacksonvilleSeaboard Passenger, Mail and Express - SAL - Portsmouth-NorlinaSouthern Railway Fast Mail - SR/Plant System - Washington-JacksonvilleWestern Pacific San Francisco Express - DRGW/WP - Denver-Oakland
daveklepper - take it way!
Name as many cases as you can of steam railway coaches of any description that were equipped with electric motors and mu controls and used in electric trains. Their use in trains need not be full time, and examples that usually served as single car trains but only occasionally were coupled with their mu capability used will also count. But do not include cars that were wired for mu operaton without motors for use as trail cars unless they were equipped with a control position for an engineer or operator. The type of railroad is not critical. It can be a class one, an interurban line, rapid transit, etc.
If any of these were later converted back to steam (or diesel) hauled operation, state the circumstances.
New York City Manhattan Elevated Carshttp://www.nycsubway.org/articles/chiasson-manel.htmlConverted in various dates from 1887 to 1903(?)Brooklyn, NY. Brooklyn Rapid Transit Predecessors converted any number of steam hauled coachesto electric, From various predecessor lines. Sea Beach, West End & The Brighton Lines.Each of these 3 were originally built as steamhauled lines converted to electric. Chicago Metropolitan West Side Elevated ,Boston Revere Beach & Lynn. Cars converted toelectri by 1928. Some cars then sold to EastBroad Top and De electrified. 1937(?)North Pacific Coast nee Northwestern Pacific Converted cars from steam to electric. 1907(?)In Addition I see some reference to Indian Railways(asia)doing some kind of conversions of coaches to EMU's on http://www.irfca.org/faq/faq-shop.html The Indian Railways Fan Club site.
As your excluding non MU cars I will not include the Pennsylvania RR & New Haven cars in New Jersey & Rhode Island or CT.
Rgds IGN
You came up with enough ansers to be the winner and covered most of what I knew. Yes, many of the PRR MP-54 mu cars were first built as trailer suburban coaches for use behind steam, and if you remember, the P54's that spent their whole operating lives as trail coaches behind steam and diesel also had the circuilar end windows that the mu cars had, so I am sure that all P54's were built in manner that they could have the electric equipment added. So yes, by all means add PRR to the list. Also, the IC, where some of the trailer cars of the motor-trailer IC Electric sets, were used behind steam before electrification. New Haven, no. All its mu's were built as mu's. This included some steel open platform mu that opened the operation. DL&W yes, like the IC. Reading, possibly, no real recollecton. NYC, no.
Note that the narrow gauge BRB&L cars reverted to steam status and were used in Hawaii, and the White Pass and Yukon during WWII.
Next question?
The next question is IGN's to ask.
In 1943 a railway was opened to provide workers with a way to work.
"The railway was brand new. And everything on it was used." (To quote someone else)
The cars over 50 years old. The track was dug up from street trackage elsewhere. From recently abandoned lines. The overhead wires also from a line that was shut down 2 years previous.
Essentially nothing new except the route itself.
The line had a considerable amount of street running but all the platforms were high level platforms.
Name the railway. & End points served
I was not sure about the MP-54's. I had thought they were built as either electric MU's or not, but not converted. Pennsy had converted some steam hauled coaches to electric as part of their Cherry Hill experimental electrictrification(600vDC) but these cars never had MU that I read about. I didn't have any of my reference books to look at. New Haven had some steam hauled coaches that were converted to 600vDC(I think) I do not remember where they worked(Rhode Island somewhere), but again these did not have MU. When I get back to the house I'll have to look and see what I can find about Readings cars.
The Boston Revere Beach & Lynn Cars have a very wide history attached to them. They seemed like real boomers in a way.
Thx IGN
The answer to the question is, of course, the Shipyard Railway, which connected the Key System's Oakland-San Francisco Bridge trains with major war material factories. The cars were ex-2nd Avenue Elevated IRT motor and trailer cars, open platform with gates, no traps and only emergency grabiron steps, no pasenger steps, wood bodies with steel underframes. One car survives in operating condition in a Californian museum. The tracks were partly shared with Key System streetcar lines, but no stops were made at the conventional streetcar stops, and part of the newly electrified tracks were part of a freight rail line. The third rail shoes were removed and each married pair of cars was equipped with one regular pantograph, reportadly salvaged from previously scrapped Sacramento Northern and Interurban Electric passenger equpiment.
I cannot proove that MP-54's were made from P-54's. However, the fact that all P-54's were built with the end owl windows, completely unncessary for non-electric operaton, indicated to me that the PRR considered the possibility. (I'm not sure that all arch-roof "ping-pong" LIRR P-54's had the owl windows, and possibly my memory that some did not is correct. But all railroad roof P-54's had them, including some the PRR sold to the Boston and Maine and that I rode in from Concord to Clairmont Junction in 1945 (age 13, recognized the cars as ex-PRR, the same as the mu-MP-54's ridden to visit friends in Elizabeth and Union, NJ - but the B&M removed the exterior train doors, all vestibule doors, and traps, and installed gates at the top of the stairs! But the owl windows stayed.)
The evidence that some P-54's were converted to MP-54's would be that the PRR removed all wood passenger coaches from service well before the electrificaton was completed from Trrenton to Sunnyside Yard, before the New Jersey suburban service was electrified and partly (mostly off-peak and weekends) diverted from Exchange Place, New Jersey to Penn Station.
Dave you got it. Ask the next question
My apologies for not getting back here earlier. Been dealing with somebodies major botch up(to put politely)
The Western Railway Museum at Rio Vista, Ca has 2 cars from the shipyard railway. As described they are probably the oldest electric cars in existence. They were originally built as locomotive hauled cars for the 2nd Av Elevated in New York and surprisingly would have been scrapped had it not been for WWII and the fact that they were wood bodied cars not metal. Then after the war they were purchased by a member of the Bay Area Electric Railway Assoc. and donated to the museum.
Description:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SacNorthern/message/7418
Photos:
http://www.rapidtransit-press.com/wrm31.jpg
Who was the man referred to as "The Pathfinder" in Colorado, what were his first transportation activies, and why were they successful, and which railroads did he eventually promote into actual operation? Are any running today? Why? Why not?
Hint: First name Otto
2nd hint: Not born in USA, an immigrant
Second name: Mears.
In my perusals of the erstwhile D&RGW, and other Colorado early railroads, I remembered something about this pioneer.
http://www.ghostdepot.com/rg/history/otto%20mears.htm
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
You got the right name, now can you do the research and come up with the rest of the answer?
I thought I would leave the harder part for someone else to answer. Besides, I don't think I would know what new question to ask.
So the second part of the question is still up for grabs. Otto Mears never got financial help from an important connection, but lots of cooperation becuase his lines were feeders of traffic. One friend was a retired General. The cooperation of the longest surviving railroad continued this kind of cooperation after Otto passed on. Including leasing locomotives.
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