Thanks for the correction. Being that knowledgable, I expect you to thoroughliy answer the question! Not necessary to know all three of the services for the lasst of the four railroads..
Actually, I don't have a lot of reference material on the New York area, so much more digging is required than I have had time for in the last couple of weeks. Here's what I'm pretty certain about:
LIRR cars operated over the BMT including one of the bridges across the east river. LIRR had a fairly large fleet of elevated-style tank locomotives. NYC had a tunnel connection to the subway designed into Grand Central, though it wasn't completed. All of the other possibilities seem to me to end up in the Bronx, without crossing into Manhattan.
PRR and LIRR's electrification may have been compatible with rapid transit. I haven't bee able to confirm the third rail spacing and height.
Tne New Haven, the Central, and the LIRR all had tank engines, the LIRR supplementing its fleet with second-handers from the Brooklyn United Elevated. All three also had short open-platform coaches with a width of only nine-feet for use on these services. After electrification with AC overhead, the New Haven's ran in Hartford - Middletown commuter service for some time.
The PRR did not have tank engines, as far as I know. The PRR had narrow cars in the steel era. Why? And they were identicle to.....?
The first electric LIRR MUs were also narrow, nearly identicle to the first IRT steel cars. So which bridge did they cross?
There was only one PRR service over rapid transit tracks, and it lasted until the whole opration was rapid transit with a new agency. Here we are talking about equipment and crews. It is obvious and well known , and the service certainly exists today. May even be extended soon.
One line of which railroad really preserved all of 19th Century operaton practice until after WWII and which elevated terminal wouild it use originally? In Manhattan on welevated tracks, but relocated to the Bronx on its own tracks when the elevated was extended.
Regarding the LIRR opereating over one of the bridges: it ran first to a ferry then extended over the bridge, obviously only when the elevated line itself was extended over the bridge. Then the LIRR steel MUs replaced the narrow wood cars and tank engines. But the elevated continued to use open-platform cars, composits built as MUs and not converted from steam-hauled coaches, the last open-platform cars built for NYCitiy rapid transit and last used on the Myrtle Avenue Elevated. When finally replaced by steel cars, they were replaced by steels displaced from elsewhere on the BMT system, after WWI, and after the LIRR service had ceased.
PRR's was Hudson and Manhattan (today's PATH). Keystones were on some of the cars until the late 1960s. So obvious I overlooked it entirely.
So, you have one outof the four railroads correct. And the H&M and PRR cars were identical, mued together, with only the lettering and symbol different. They were also the first North American air-conditioned rapid-transit cars.
There should be enough hints for you to easilyi get the other three railraods. What was 19th Century railroading, train orders, hand-thrown switches, right up to abandonment? Until RS-3s for both freight and passenger, 4-6-0's for both freight and passwenger. What elevated Manhattan terminal did it use until cut back to itsown terminal across the river with elevatged dtrains replcing it on the bridge?
What is an important freight-onlyi line that could once carry passengers from a ferry terminal toa surface rapid transit line to a berach that subsequentliy saw freigiht and streetcars only, with an elevated above?
Or, another, first stewam from a ferry terminal and then with mu steel cars from a Manhattan terminal to a different beach resort?
The second one must be NYC's Putnam Division. It appears to have used the Ninth avenue El to 155th St. The NY&P (Putnam Div) line north of 155th to High Bridge became part of the Ninth Avenue El's Jerome Avenue extension. The section between the former Polo Grounds and High Bridge is no longer there, though a similar path is followed by the B & D subway lines.
Did the LIRR line to Bay Ridge host trains to the beaches?
You got the Central's use of the elevated correctly, but it is not to High Bridge, but to Sedgewick Avenue, th El tracks ramping up to the 4-line tracks between Yankee Stadium-161st and 167th street. The Jerome Avenue structure was actually opened by 6th and 9th El trains all the way to Woodlawn before the subway reached The Bronx. But most elevated trains were cut back to Bernside Avenue once trhe subway trains started running. A few 6th Avenue trains continued to Wooidlawn rush hours only. The shuttle over the extension from 155th that remained after June 1940 was cut back to 167th after a few weeks of running to Bernside. 6th Avenue trains ran to The Bronx only during weekday rush hours.
Your question on Bay Ridge is answered with a yes. And from the hints you should know the route. Summer only.
Bay Ridge to Coney Island?
Yes, and the route shared with elevated trains is described well enough so you should be able to describe its locations. The Bay Ridge branch of the LIRR started ouit as the narrow gauge Manhattan Beach Railroad, from Bay Bridge though an arc to the Bushwick sction of Brooklyn, with a wye junction east of the present Q and B Brighton line to a line south to a beach between Canarsie and Coney Island called (still?) Manhattan Beach. The project included a luxurious hotel. The LIRR bought the property as part of its general takeover of Long Island railroads, and standard-gauged it. The railroad line to the sea was eventually located along with the Brighton Line on an embankment that was wider than it is now. The loss of hotel clients was in part made up bh a racetrack, and Brooklyn United United even built a connection around Kings Highway and strung trolley wire wire so its elevated trains could run to the racetrack. This was arouond 1899, and was realliy the very first bit of LIRR electrified track! (Shades of NYNBH&H overhead wire over LIRR track 18 years later.) With the loss of business to Manhattan Beach, with the racetrack running in the off-season, the LIRR started running over the Brooklyin United, then becoming the Brooklyn Rapid transit to Coney Island with on-going hotels, rides and attractions as well as the beach. But this was not on the Brighton Line, and the description should tell you which line it is.
The conversion of the Bay Ridge Branch into the major connection via carfloat between the New Haven and the PRR, and other railroads terminating on the New Jersey waterfront, came with the whole New York Connecting Railroad project, being the freight side of the Penn Station project. The LIRR kept ownership south of Fresh Pondo Junction because it wass there already, was by then a PRR subsidiary, and could provide the local freight service, incluiding interchange to and from the BRT, then BMT's South Brooklyn and to Bush Terminal.
Name the route. It has a letter designation for the trains on the elevated structure. But when the LIRR ran its steam trains on the line, the surface tracks were all that was there.
To my non-NYC-trained eye I would think the "F" line is the closest match.
Correct. The LIRR summer trains ran into the old Coney Island Culver Terminal, which was remodeled with loops for streetcars when the structure was built to take first the elevated trains, then steel subway trains as well and then exclusively, off the street. The steam servicing facilities for the stgeam el-train days had been left in place. The LIRR service quit around 1903 or 1904, because it was not realy competitive with the BRT's own elevated service from the Fulton Ferry and the connection to the Brooklyn Bridge cablecars, later replaced by through el-train service. to Park Row, City Hall.
For the New Haven case, the track connection existed right until the elevated itself was torn down. It was an electrified elevated-type third rail connection useful for gravety shoe-cars, without protective coverboard. It lasted into the early 1950s. The elevated shuttle train shared tracks across a bridge with regujlar service that continued long after the shuttle was discontiniued.
Gate cars seerved the shuttle, but the postwar fantrip, around 1951, used composite cars converted to elevated service from former subway cars. The platform for across-th-plaatform transfer to the New Haven and defunct other railroad was still in, and so was the catenary over that track.
So that was the NYNH&H's Harlem River branch, and the NYW&B. How far did NYNH&H run into Manhattan?
Overe the 2nd Avenue bridge used by the 129th Street to Treemont Avenue Subuirban Rapid Transit Company steam elevated trains on The Bronx's first rapid transit line on Third Avenue, then through routed with 2d and 3rd Avenue elevated trains before electrification, to the 129th Street station for across-the paltform transfer to 3rd Avenue Elevated trains. In the steam days they were cut back to Willis Avenue station with the electric elevated train shuttle running 129th Street - Willis Avenue (and 132nd Street). Willis Avenue was also the southern temrminal for the NYW&B duirng the time of its existance. (same track) The Harlem River Shuttle New Haven trains quit about 1931 (no travk abandonment), the shuttle aroiund 1935, with people walking (under cover) to the 3rd Avenue 132nd Street station, and the NYW&B around 1937 or 1938. Corrections invited on these years.. A short branch off the single-track connectdion led to a multi-track yard that was the storage point of the Forney 0-4-4Ts after electrification, two of which hung around until sold in 1942.
Did we get all of the lines you were looking for? I don't think Staten Island Rapid Transit ever got the B&O into Manhattan...
You identified services of the four railroads, with the last one being the Harlem River Branch of the NYNH&H, which in latter years shared the track and platform at the Willis Avenue station with the New York Westchester and Boston, which outlasted the Harlem River Branch passsenger service by a few years.
The El was electrified around 1903, and then the third-rail electrified shuttle service replaced the running of the New Haven Harlem Branch steam trains over the elevated's bridge into the 129th Street Station. The New Haven's Harlem River shuttle was elecrified later, and for a long time the MU's usually assigned did not have third-rail shoes or dc control equipment. This may have been to the end of the service, around 1931.
The two remaining LIRR services are: (1) the Essex Street, later Chamber Street - Willliamsburg Bridge - Rocikaway Park steel MU MP43 service replacing Broadway Ferry - Rockaway Park 0-4-4T gate-car service in the summer-only service, and were the first LIRR trains to enter Manhattan; and (2) operation of steam LIRR trains, similar equipment, form Jamaica and Far Rockaway to Sands Street and the Fulton Ferry via a ramp at the throat of the Atlantic Avenue Terminal to the elevated tracks. Discontinued when the Atlantic Avenue Terminal was rebuilt and the Atlantic Avneue LIRR line electrified. There is a report of a one-time occurance of an engineer accepting a wrong signal at Sands Street Tower and taking his train over the Brooklyn Bridge.
By all means ask the next question
Dave K- Your knowledge and first hand experience with New York City area public transit in all of it's forms are quite unmatched. For the rest of us, the great unwashed, it seems very complex and confusing, but we try to follow and understand.
So I have a question for you, in between all the quiz questions.
Was the transit system as a whole superior 'back in the day" than what exists in modern times? Was it safer?
When was the zenith of the system or is that what New Yorkers have now?
First, you must remember that I have not been a user of the system for now 2-1/2 years, and my view of the present situation is largely the result of correpsondance and journals from perople that I trust.
Second, rxcellence can be dependent on just who's point of view is important. the Manhattan elevateds were certainly a very superior form of transportation and were preferred over then then-existing subway lines by many, but were not kind to the people who lived right next to their structures. They, and the structures remaining, could be quieted considerably, and I have written a paper on just that subject ("Additional thoughts on railway noise," Noise Control Engineering, Vol 52, No. 2, March-April 2004,.p. 69-71).
From the point of view of the transit rider, public transportation in New York City was probgabliy best around 1931, just after the 14th Street - Eastern Line was finally connected through to Broadway Junction, East New York Eastern Parkway and finally became the 14th Street - Canarsie line of today. Or maybe a few years later when the basic City-owned Independent Suybway System had opened, but before massive streetcar abandonments took place. This is, oif coiurse, controversial, since the equipment on the GM-owned New York Railways lines and its subsidiaries was hardly modern, comfortable, or fast. Possiblyi the year chosen should be 1936, when busses did substitute for these streetcars, but more modern equipment was being introduced to the TGhird Avenue Railways Lines, the basic IND was in palce, and PCCs started running on three improtant Brooklyn streetcar lines. One still had most of the elevateds. One could go to Yonkers by subway and streetcar, by the New York Central MU commuter service on the Hudson Line, or by the shortly-to-be abandoned Gettys Square branch of the Putnam Division, either changing at High Bridge Station or reaching it via the 9th Avenue Elevated at Sedgewick Avenue.
Vandalism was less of a problem, and rattan seats in subway cars amd streetcars and plush in busses were certainly more comfortable than the hard plastic of today. Does air-conditioning make up for that? On the BMT, the drop-sash windos in the end-doors allowed a steady strea of air through the length of the train while it was in motion, in additon to the open windows on the sides.
the 2nd Avenue Elevated was doing its job, and there was no real overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway. And emergencies and repairs did mean total shut-down of portions of the system, but every attempt was made to continue to provide service, at least during weekday rush hours and mid-wekday.
But the nadir of the whole system with years of deferrred maintnance, gcraffitti everywhere, dirt, etc., was probably in the later 1950s, and the overall system has improved steadily since then. The new subway and commuter car equipment and signalling has made a major difference. I think, overall, public transportaton in New York was good when I left in 1996, and is even better today.
If one wishes ot consider the effect on the public at large, which must include the motorist and those living next ot former elevated lines, then obviously it is better than it was in 1931 or 1936.
With regard to Third Rails: New York City had three types, four if you also count the Manhattan streetcar conduit system. The BMT, IND, the B&O's SIRT, H&M-PRR, PRR-original, LIRR all had the same cover-board protected third rail for nearly-horizontal sprung shoes. The IRT subway was only slightly different, by a fraction of an inch in one dimension or another, nothing that prevented IRT subwsay cars from runnig on BMT without modification except for the location of the 'trip-hammer" emergency-stop arm. (No 7 line trains today are equipped with two such devices, unless the 7 has been converted to IND-BMT standards. The elevated lines had the closer and somewhat lower unprotected thirrd rail that the CTA still uses with gravity shoes. The IRT and BMT joint subway and elevated operated lines had both third rails, on on each side of the track. I do not believe any examples of this still exist. The other type was of course the Centrals underruning third rail.
In the streetcar conduits were two power rails, one power and one ground return, one on each side, with the wooden plow having a shoe on each side.
Very nice summation Dave...thanks for answering my question.
Plush in the Buses eh? That I do not recall at all being the case up here ( Hamilton, Toronto...loved the plush in CPR coaches)
You see old movies where the elevated constantly goes by the bedroom of some down trodden soul. That must have been tough. Not sure how accurate the depiction was.
Toronto Transit still has quite an extensive streetcar line. PCC's are all gone, replaced by Bombardier, usually articulated. People complain like heck about them but that's just people..they are crowded, motorists hate them, they bunch up all the time, people bring in their bicycles constantly and all manner of humanity uses them...only thing missing is crates with chickens on the roof.
They run a DeWitt on a scheduled tour route year round.
Pictures I have seen of the old elevated stations in NYC are fascinating and quite beautiful and mysterious in their complexity.
But cities should be for people and not for autos, and I thinnk it is just great that Toronto kept the streetcar lines that it did. There are plenty of streets in Toronto for auto drivers to enjoy without streetcars. If they don't like driving on King or Queen, they now have Bloor and Danforth. But in many cases buses cause as much disruption to auto traffic streaming as streetcars, if not more. At least the streetcar is predictable as to where it will go.
I've heard good reports ambput the new Bombardier streetcars, definiteliy an improvement over the cars that replaced the PCCs. Jack May, who is PCC fan in every respect, says the are a good successor, and that air conditioning should be appreciated in the summer. Our Alstom Civitas 302s in Jerusalem qare fine cars, qnd I enjoy riding them.
In addition to the Peter Witt for charter, are there not also two saved PCCs? Don't they regularly run on Sundays and Holidays on the Harborfront Line?
Let's leave New York City for a bit and head out into the midwest...
This coach-only midwestern name train of the late 1920s carried a diner and a lounge-observation, along with a name glorifying the competition. The train served as a pattern for a fleet of similar trains inaugurated in the 1930s.
Two names occur: Challenger, possibly initially a C&NW train, latyerUP, or Rocket.
I take it back; the C&NW 400.Yes, the 400.
The 400 promoted itself, not a competitor (400 miles in 400 minutes!) and carried parlor cars. This train operated a little further east in the midwest...
Despite the train's name, it was steam-powered. At least some of the competition - but not what it was named after - was electric.
Must be Rocket, and its route must be St. Louis - Peoria, since the ecompetition must be the Illinois Terminal. If the same railroad fielded the 1930's fleet, then it must be the Rock Island.
I thought it migiht be Electroiner from bering electrically lighted and possibly even heated, but the North Shore fielded the Electroliner (a fleet if you consider each departure a separate train) in 1941, not int he 1930's.
If I have not come uppong the answer, please indicate whether the 1930's fleet was indeed on the same railroad as the '20s' single example.
Or was the fleet freight, not passenger?
Remember, 1920s. The first Rockets were in 1937. The five car train was given a special paint job. It was an early depression victim. A North-South train in a region more known for east-west limiteds.
The electric competition also fell to the competitors the train was named for, though it lasted until the end of the 1930s.
Putting together all the information you provided, the train was the PRR Dixie Arrow; the competition was the Interstate Public Service's, much later Indiana Railroad's, Indianapolis - Louisville Dixie Flyer service; and Arrow fleet in the 1930's included the PRR Detroit Arrow, Chicago - Detroit, using the Wabash east of Fort Wayne, the Red Arrow, New York - Detroit, and possiblyanother Arrow, Washington or Baltimore - Buffalo.
Still not quite the correct answer. The train operated in Michigan and Ohio, not Indiana.
Did the B&O have a Royal Bluw between DEtroit and Cincinnati, and then in the 30s instituted the Royal Blue Line, a fleet of trains between Jersey Citiy (bus connections to and from NYCity) and Washington? I don't get the challange to the competition. There was intgerurban service between Cincinnati and Detroit, but I thought through service awaited the C&LE which came later.
Or was this a NYCentral Detroit - Cleveland train challanging the air serevice, an airplane service that was very early between Detroit and Cleveland - or possibly a Lake Boat. There may have been through interurban service Detroit - Cleveland at that time, but that did not last into the later 1930s. I think DEtroit -Cincinnati did last that long.
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