The modification to most of the North Shore's existing passenger equipment took place at the time when through service to downtown Chicago was established. The CA&E modified its equipment similarly to provide through service. All steel equipment needed no modificaion, was built the way the modoified wood cars became.
Now I hope you can answer this easy question.
CNS&M wood cars had to have their vestibules narrowed (actually tapered) to clear Northwestern Elevated and South Side Rapid Transit clearances. CA&E woods were built with appropriate tapers, but cars acquired from the Washington Baltimore & Annapolis had to be rebuilt with tapered vestibules. The ex-WB&A cars had to be trimmed a little more to go around the loop, so they could be loaned to CNS&M for sailor specials serving Great Lakes during WWII.
Except for a single excursion for CERA in 1947, TMER&T passenger equipment never operated on the CNS&M. Milwaukee Northern (later TMER&L) box motors were modifield with CNS&M-compatible couplers and operated in the "bathtub train" for Kohler with CNS&M Merchandise Despatch motors as far as the MD yard just south of Wilson Avenue in Chicago. The bathtub train actually originated on the Shebygan Division of Wisconsin Power & Light. MD motors also went to TM's Milwaukee freight house on occasion. CNS&M passenger cars were used a couple of times a year for charters to St. Johns Military Academy in Delafield WI.
TM city cars ran for three blocks of Wells Ave. on CNS&M's Chicago and Milwaukee Electric's city car line in Milwaukee.
Even more information than I had. Thanks. Look forward to your question.
From 1962 to 1967, the longest train that regularly departed Chicago Union Station left at 11AM each day made of of three trains combined into one. The first fulfilled a contract won nearly 80 years before, and had between 8 and 16 cars, depending on the season. The second and third carried the railroad's trademark suffix, with the second going to a large city, with four or five cars and the third going to the same city as the first (plus a little further). The third section was almost always made up with the seven cars (later reduced to five) of a prewar articulated train. Name the railroad, the trains and the endpoints, along with the city where the second section was split off.
All that I could find, using the October 1967 Guide, leaving Chicago Union Station at 11:00 am were the Nebraska Zephyr and the Kansas City Zephyr, which were combined as far as Galesburg. Was the first train a mail train that ran just to Omaha (the Nebraska Zephyr ran to Lincoln)?
Johnny
Oh, yes, the Kansas City Zephyr apparently made use of the prewar cars, but from what train, I do not know--unless it was an orignal Twin Cities Zephyr.
Guys, this is surely the 'City of Everywhere' so wittily referred to in Kratville's book on the UP Streamliners. My copy is buried in storage and furosemide interferes with any fun research on a phone, so someone with the details can list them correctly.
Johnny has the correct answer (like I didn't give it away with the departure time!). Train 11's front section was the Fast Mail, CB&Q's connection to UP's mail trains at Omaha, a service that dated to 1883. Made up of baggage cars, occasional flexivans, and two working RPOs, it ran westbound only, the mail equipment returning in various other trains to Cicero yard to avoid CUS charges. The middle section was the Kansas City Zephyr, the last the Nebraska Zephyr, using one of the former Twin Zephyrs. The Nebraska Zephyr continued on to Lincoln. The Fast Mail was discontinued with the loss of the mail contract in 1967. The Zephyrs were around until the BN merger and Amtrak, though the Twin Zephyr trains came off in 1968.
After the California Zephyr was discontiniued, and the WP became freight-only, three times a week the two combined Zephrys, the Kansas City and the Nebraska, had a third train added, the "California Service - Rio Grande Zephyr" to Salt Lake City and for a while to Ogden (just a coach and a sleeper St. L. City - Ogden. This arrangement lasted until Amtrak.
The replacements for the articulated coaches were lightweights purchased from the C&NW, overhauled and painted silver to match the Budd equipment. The last of the heavywieght long-distance CB&Q cars were retired around the same time.
See my CZ-RGZ thread, or possibly it is D&RGW-CB&Q on this forum for photos.
In November of 1967, what three name trains to the West Coast had the engines put on the rear at one point and ran thus for 104 miles, at which point the engines were returned to the front of the train? Name the trains and the two points.
Deggesty In November of 1967, what three name trains to the West Coast had the engines put on the rear at one point and ran thus for 104 miles, at which point the engines were returned to the front of the train? Name the trains and the two points.
Denver and Cheyenne are obviously the two points. Two of the trains were the City of St. Louis and the Portland Rose. The other one was probably the City of Portland, which soon stopped running via Denver, with the CofD cars running as a separate train west of North Platte. The CofStL and CofP had run via Borie before this. The loss of much of the mail contract resulted in UP moving nearly all switching of mail cars to Cheyenne. Some of it had formerly been done in Green River and Ogden.
Yes, you have the answer. As long as the trains from Kansas City bypassed Cheyenne, the only backing was in Denver.
You can be sure that during the period that the trains ran into Cheyenne passengers wondered why the cars were running backwards.
I made several trips which involved that operation--on one of them the train took the long way from Cheyenne to Laramie--and we had to wait for a westbound freight that went right up the hill when we reached the junction at the top.
Amtrak used the same maneuver for the "City of San Francisco service/California Zephyr" between 1971 and 1979, after which "West Cheyenne" station was located at Borie and quickly renamed Borie. (Removed in 1983, new version in use 1990-1997 for Pioneer/Desert Wind). I remember one trip around 1977 when the air and signal hoses weren't tucked into the SDP40F's pilot pockets when they were run around the train in Denver. UP sent some mechanical dept. guys over from the Cheyenne engine facility with big pipe wrenches to get them off what was now the lead unit so the train could proceed west.
I'll post another question later today.
This C&NW/UP/SP train was below the top tier, but still important enough in the early postwar era to be used for transcontinental sleepers.
The San Francisco Overland Limited carried two New York-San Francisco sleepers, via the New York Central, and one via the Pennsyvania.
The November 1950 Guide gives conflicting information as to the accomodations in the car handled by the PRR--the PRR and the UP list a 10-5 and the C&NW and SP list a 10-1-2.
The PRR car was handled on the Gotham Limited wb and on the Admiral eb, and the NYC car was handled on the Chicagoan wb and on the Lake Shore Limited eb.
Three nights and a dqy going west, and a day, three nights and a morning going east.
The San Francisco Overland was still top tier. The train I'm looking for took quite a bit longer to make the trek than either the City of San Francisco or the Overland, and was roughly the equivalent of the Portland Rose in stature.
The train took 22 hrs 40 minutes longer than the City, and 14 hours longer than the Overland. Transcon sleepers were gone by 1951.
The only other route that I can think of is the Burglington-D&RGW-WP route--whoicd did have through sleepers on the California Zephyr. I cannot get to any of my Guides older than the February 1950, so I cannot check for schedules before the CZ was inaugurated. Did the Exposition Flyer run until the CZ came into service?
The train I'm looking for was a C&NW/UP/SP train. It lasted until the big CMStP&P migration in 1955, though the transcon cars only lasted to 1950. Washington cars to and from the PRR (on Washington connections of 2nd tier PRR trains). The CZ did get a through sleeper that alternated between the NYC and the PRR - the PRR's contribution was a Budd-built 10-6 that was very nearly identical to CB&Q/D&RGW/WP cars, with California Zephyr on the letterboard, PRR on the end tabs and "Silver Rapids" on the nameplate.
I want to say the M&NA in Arkansas.. not sure date or exact location
rcdrye This C&NW/UP/SP train was below the top tier, but still important enough in the early postwar era to be used for transcontinental sleepers.
Would this be the Chicago-San Francisco Pacific (a modernization of the old Pacific Limited name)? In the immediate postwar years it handled several Washington-San Francisco transcons from the PRR and B&O. The Pacific was part of a heavyweight "City of Everywhere" operation, as its schedule and consists meshed with those of the Portland Rose and Pony Express, providing a Chicago/Kansas City/Denver-West Coast service.
I don't see the name Pacific in the 1948 listings or UP timetables. This train name hearks back to an era before the CP and UP were built. Despite the train's second-tier status, it had a very high-class name. The train dated back before the war and may have inherited the Pacific's sleepers by 1948, before they were dropped altogether. For a helper, there's a 1951 UP timetable on the net that's readable, though the transcon sleepers were gone (from that train, anyway) by then.
rcdrye I don't see the name Pacific in the 1948 listings or UP timetables. This train name hearks back to an era before the CP and UP were built. Despite the train's second-tier status, it had a very high-class name. The train dated back before the war and may have inherited the Pacific's sleepers by 1948, before they were dropped altogether. For a helper, there's a 1951 UP timetable on the net that's readable, though the transcon sleepers were gone (from that train, anyway) by then.
The Pacific was a Chicago-San Francisco train in 1946, but by 1948 it was cut back to Chicago-Ogden and handling cars to/from Los Angeles via the Pony Express and Portland via the Portland Rose. In the December 1948 Official Guide, the UP entry shows the Pacific consist listing lumped together with the other two trains, numbered 21-17-37 and 22-18-36.
Another possibility for your question would be the Gold Coast. It handled the Washington-San Francisco sleepers that were operated on the Pacific.
Answering s question, yes, the Edposition Flyer did run until the inauguration of the California Zephr and then ceased. Some of the Budd equipmenet that formed the five trainsets for the CZ showed up in operation of the EF in its last months of operation.
I never rode Silver Rapids on the CZ or PRR. I rode it once, roomette, Albany - Detroit on the Penn Central on the combined post-20th Century "Steel Fleet."
ZO has found the "Gold Coast". Even though the Gold Coast was primarily intended to service smaller cities and towns (it had dozens of conditional stops) it still carried several Pullmans, including the Washington cars and one from St Louis (Wabash, via Omaha). There was even an observation listed that ran from Salt Lake City to Oakland. Never a "streamliner", the Gold Coast did get some lightweight equipment as the 1950s progressed. UP's move to the Milwaukee in 1955 doomed through operation of secondary trains, so the Gold Coast was quietly discontinued, along with through operation of the San Francisco Overland.
rcdrye-- can you please explain why UP switching to Milwaukee would doom the secondary trains?
Miningman rcdrye-- can you please explain why UP switching to Milwaukee would doom the secondary trains?
rcdrye--OK...thanks for this. Thinking the Milwaukee took on declining passenger trains because 1) stick it to the C&NW 2) prestige 3) most importantly, assume enhanced and greatly expanded freight connections with UP by this good faith gesture and therefore advancing both 1) and 2) not to mention greatly increased revenues.
My understanding is that it really did not turn out that way at all.
MiningmanMy understanding is that it really did not turn out that way at all.
Yeah I don't know what makes me sicker...the demise of the Milwaukee, the total collapse of the Rock Island, the fading away to nothing of the New York Central or the discovery that the Emperor has no clothes with the Pennsy. Those were very traumatic times.
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