We can rule out the Cotton Belt because it did run to Texas. The GM&O at one time ran a through sleeper between Mobile and Chicago via St. Louis. It believe it ran in the consist of the Gulf Coast Rebel and in Alton trains between StL and Chicago but that was a single car not a train so I guess that is not the answer you're looking for. I'm at a loss to think of any other service through StL that meets the paramaters of your question and the replies that you and others have posted.
Mark
Iron Mountain to Texarkana?
http://www.raremaps.com/maps/medium/19200.jpg
Could it have been through service to Kansas City from Chicago via St. Louis? Seems unlikely, but might be possible.
ZephyrOverland In 1946, a section of the Sunshine Special became a through Texas-New York train via PRR, running through St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there. This was not a first. Name the train, railroad(s), and the endpoints of another train that operated THROUGH St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there, and predated the New York Sunshine Special service.Bonus question - Because of the establishment of the above train in question, another railroad began a similar service but it shared only one endpoint with the other train (the other endpoint for this train was near the endpoint of the above train). This other train did not run through St. Louis, but it did have through cars to and from St. Louis. Name this train, the railroad(s) and endpoints.
In 1946, a section of the Sunshine Special became a through Texas-New York train via PRR, running through St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there. This was not a first. Name the train, railroad(s), and the endpoints of another train that operated THROUGH St. Louis instead of beginning or ending there, and predated the New York Sunshine Special service.
Bonus question - Because of the establishment of the above train in question, another railroad began a similar service but it shared only one endpoint with the other train (the other endpoint for this train was near the endpoint of the above train). This other train did not run through St. Louis, but it did have through cars to and from St. Louis. Name this train, the railroad(s) and endpoints.
Mark - you actually tripped over the answer in terms of the railroads involved, but you were two generations ahead.
The answer to the above question is:
Havana Limited - Chicago-Mobile - Chicago & Alton/Mobile & Ohio
The answer to the bonus question is:
Cuban Special - Chicago/St. Louis-New Orleans - Illinois Central
Both trains existed around 1906. When I first came across these names I was wondering - "Why were these trains named this way?" I knew the IC exploited their accessibility to destinations beyond New Orleans with the naming of the Panama Limited in 1911, but the Havana Limited began in January 1906. From some historical investigation I think I can piece together a possible scenario.
1) The concept of winter seasonal train service was beginning to take hold from New York to Florida and from Chicago and New Orleans west (the California Limited, Sunset Limited and the Golden State Limited were originally winter season trains).
2) Between 1906 and 1909, Cuba was occupied by US forces after they routed the Cuban dictator then in power.
3) Sensing a commercial freight and passenger travel opportunity to a now more secure location (and seeing what Flagler was doing in Florida in developing the Key West Extension), the above mentioned railroads started priming the travel pump by establishing these trains and advertising the delights of vacationing in Cuba, providing an alternative to west coast travel for midwesterners. One could take the Havana Limited and a connecting ship and be in Havana in 60 hours, as opposed a longer trip going to the west coast.
I don't think this bet paid off well. After running as a de-luxe Pullman winter seasonal train for the 1905-06 and 1906-07 seasons, the Havana Limited became a daily coach and Pullman St. Louis- Mobile operation sometime in 1907 and lasting until 1908. The de luxe all-Pullman Cuban Special didn't make it past the winter season of 1906-1907.
Mark - since you were the closest to the answer, why don't you ask the next question?
Very exoteric indeed!
OK here's the next question.
A number of passenger trains had common species of flora (plants, trees, etc.) in their names. Name as many as you can that ran sometime during the 1945-1959 time period together with the railroads that operated them and the end points of their routes. US trains only please.
KCSfan OK here's the next question. A number of passenger trains had common species of flora (plants, trees, etc.) in their names. Name as many as you can that ran sometime during the 1945-1959 time period together with the railroads that operated them and the end points of their routes. US trains only please. Mark
Azalea–L&N, Cincinnati-Memphis/New Orleans
Palmetto–RF&P/ACL, Washington-Augusta/Savannah
Cotton Blossom–RF&P/SAL, Washington-Birmingham
Pine Tree--B&M/MeC, Boston-Bangor
Maple Leaf–Lehigh/CN, NYC/Philadelphia-Toronto/Buffalo
Royal Palm–Sou, Cincinnati-Jacksonville
New Royal Palm–NYC/Sou/FEC, Detroit-Miami
Orange Blossom Special–PRR/RF&P/SAL, NYC-Miami
Buckeye–PRR, Columbus-Chicago
Peach Queen–Sou, Washington-Atlanta
Land O’Corn–IC, Chicago-Sioux City
Bluebonnet–MKT, Kansas City-Ft. Worth/San Antonio
Sunflower–MoP, St. Louis-Omaha/Wichita
Portland Rose–UP, Kansas City-Portland
Columbine–C&NW/UP, Chicago-Denver
Johnny (Fauna, not Flora)
Johnny
Good start Johnny, you've named a majority of them that I know of. Let's keep this open for a short while and see if anyone can come up with the rest of them.
Potatoland Special - Bangor & Aroostock - Bangor to Van Buren
Cranberry - NH - Boston to Woods Hole
Camellia - PRR,RF&P,SAL - New York to Miami
Palmland - PRR,RF&P,SAL - New York to Miami
Goldenrod - SR - Birmingham to Mobile
Sycamore - NYC - Cincinnati to Chicago
Bluegrass - Monon - Chicago to Louisville
Corn Belt Rocket - RI - Chicago to Omaha
Boy you guys are good. Johnny is our winner having identified 15 trains and Mike is a close second with 8. The only train that I had on my list which you failed to mention was the NH's Nutmeg running between Boston and Waterbury (Yes, Nutmeg is the name of a tree which provides us with the spice of the same name.) One minor correction; The Bluegrass Spcl was a PRR not a Monon train.
LIght up your stogie and shoot us another question, Johnny.
KCSfan LIght up your stogie and shoot us another question, Johnny. Mark
Name them, the roads that ran them, and the approximate locations of the abandoned tracks. Some of these lines had more than one train; the name of one is sufficient, but go ahead and name all you know that ran on the same now-gone tracks.
Johnny,
I'll take a stab at a few of them but I'm not at all sure where the tracks are abandoned. Some may still be in place and are today a short line railroad or a secondary of one of the big Class I's.
North Coast Ltd. - NP - parts of mainline between Minneapolis and Pacific Northwest abandoned
Olympian Hiawatha - CMStP&P - abandoned west of Minneapolis
Rocky Mountain Rocket CRI&P - abandoned KC to Denver & Colorado Springs
Colorado Eagle - MoPac - abandoned Denver to KC
Texas Eagle - T&P - abandoned Ft.W to El Paso
Katy Flyer - MKT - abandoned Parstons - StL
City of Miami - IC - abandoned Jackson, TN to B'ham
Silver Meteor - SAL - parts of "S" line abandoned between Richmond and Jax
Silver Comet SAL - abandoned Atl to Montgomery (maybe Atl- Hamlet as well)
City of Memphis - NC&StL - abandoned Memphis to Bruceton
The Georgian/Humming Bird - L&N - abandoned StL to Evansville
The Westerner - NKP - abandoned StL to Frankfort
Erie Ltd - Erie - abandoned Chi to ?
North Shore Ltd. - NYC - CASO abandoned Buffalo to Detroit
Southwestern Ltd - NYC - abandoned Indy to StL
Phoebe Snow - DL&W - abandoned ?
Jonh Wilkes - LV - abandoned ?
Royal Gorge - D&RGW - abandoned Canon City to Dotsero
KCSfanRocky Mountain Rocket CRI&P - abandoned KC to Denver & Colorado Springs
From Limon west to Colorado Springs the old RI was the Cadillac and Lake City short line for a while. Is that truly abandon now? I know the owner had a heart attack back in the late 1980s and couldn't keep up with it. The Big Sur Waterbeds manufacturing plant depended on it.
KCSfanColorado Eagle - MoPac - abandoned Denver to KC
Deggesty KCSfan LIght up your stogie and shoot us another question, Johnny. Mark We think of the many passenger trains that criss-crossed the nation, and wish they could be running again. But--some could not be operated now, because the tracks are no longer there! Name them, the roads that ran them, and the approximate locations of the abandoned tracks. Some of these lines had more than one train; the name of one is sufficient, but go ahead and name all you know that ran on the same now-gone tracks. Johnny
This is a tall order, and probably also virtually endless. There is a good stab already posted but it also underscores the problem of answering: you did not restrict the question to "famous named trains" or "premier train of a given road". Thus each road has lots of trains, and like in the case of the PRR or NYC or SF, for instance, many many trains and many full and partial routes.
I'll tackle the DL&W where you had the east and westbound Phoebe Snow (formerly the Lackawanna Limited) Hoboken to Buffalo. Today the original main line, the Cut Off in NJ, is gone as is the track west of Willow Point in Vestal, NY. There is some switching track in Elmira off the present NS yard. The main line west from Elmira Heights is gone, was gone, but was a new line built on the right of way from west of Big Flats through Gibson and into Corning where the Erie line is reassumed. West (north) of Painted Post the line reemerges and is in to Wayland. Other stretches of track exist in spots as sidings, spurs, and industrial tracks from Mt. Morris to East Buffalo. In addition to Miss Phoebe, these tracks hosted westbound trains #5 The Twilight, #7 The Westerner, and #15 the Owl; eastabound trains were #8 The New Yorker, #10 The New York Mail, and #4 The Pocono Express. There was a Binghamton Hoboken milk round trip dialy, eastbound #44, and westbound #47, and the Scranton pair, #26 east as The Merchants Express and #11 west as the Scrantonian. The Syracuse branch is exant Binghamton to the CSX (nee CR, nee PC, nee NYC0 connections in Syracuse but cut off to the State Fair Grounds where the track is in place almost into Oswego. The Utica Branch is gone from Chenango Forks to Norwich due to washouts, and is out of service on to Sherburn but intact into Utica; the Richfield Springs Branch isd long ripped up. The Bloom is in in many places in the Scranton-Wilkes Barre corridor but not beyond Nanticoke to Berwick where there is a shortline operating on to Northumberland (a Pittsburg train used this line).
So if all named trains and their former routes were described, we'd have a lot of research done for some kind of book! But I am anxious to read the stories....
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KCSfan One minor correction; The Bluegrass Spcl was a PRR not a Monon train.
One minor correction; The Bluegrass Spcl was a PRR not a Monon train.
The Blue Grass or Bluegrass (what Mike described in his submission) was a Chicago-Louisville Monon train running around 1948. The Blue Grass Special was a PRR Chicago-Louisville train operating in the early 1950's
This does look interesting. Mark jumped in and named seventeen routes--but unless the UP has made a great change recently, it is still possible to take the T&P between Ft. Worth and Sierra Blanca.
Also, the Silver Comet did not go to Montgomery, unless it was detoured after Champion Davis started supplying power for the former ACL headquarters in Jacksonville (after the ACL and SAL became the SCL). Its route is no longer intact west of Atlanta, though. Mark, were you thinking of the SAL's line across South Georgia?
The IC gained entrance to Birmingham by using the Southern from Haleyville to Jasper (still there), and the SLSF from Jasper to Birmingham (still there).
So far as I know, the Big 4 line from Indianapolis to Terre Haute is still in use.
Thanks, TZ, for your notes. I would expect a short line to be willing to allow a passenger train to run on its track--if it does not have to pay for any upgrade or for the additional maintenance.
Can you come up with more before tomorrow evening?
ZephyrOverland The Blue Grass or Bluegrass (what Mike described in his submission) was a Chicago-Louisville Monon train running around 1948. The Blue Grass Special was a PRR Chicago-Louisville train operating in the early 1950's
I think it was in 1947 or '48 when the Monon streamlined their three train passenger fleet. The daytime Chi - Louisville train was the Thoroughbred. I vaguely recall there had been an overnight train on this route as well and wonder if this was the Bluegrass or if the Blugrass was a daytime predecessor of the Thoroughbred. I think the Monon discontinued the overnight train around the time they put the streamliners in service.
All the various PRR trains that used the Baltimore Northern route betweeb Baltimore and Harrsiburg, including the Liberty Limited Wash DC - Chi, the Washington section of the General and the Red Arrow, Buffalo Day Express.
Then of course the Electroliners of the North Shore, or doesn;t that count as a name train?
Other interurban trains including the Hoosierland, Indianpolis - Fort Wayne, the Dixie Limited, Indianapolis - Louisville, and the Ben Hur, Indianapolis - Crawfordsville.
The Allouette, Red Wing, and Boston section of the Ambassador, all Boton -Montral, with necessary B&M trackage abandoned in New Hampshire. The CV, CP, and CN trackage still exists along with Guildford-Pan Am south of Concord, NH.
Are the PRR Pittsburgh - Chicago and Pittsburgh - St Louis tracks all still in, used in part by short lines, or had part been removed?
Many thanks for the corrections on the abandoned segments of the routes that I mentioned. I should have done some research instead of just posting top of the head guesses on these. I had one of those "oldtimers" moments when it came to the the Silver Comet. I knew good and well it ran to Birmingham not Montgomery. I'll add a few more midwestern trains to the list.
The Hoosier and Tippecanoe - Monon - abandoned Monon to Indianapolis
The Green Diamond, Daylight and Night Diamond - IC - parts of their route have been abandoned but I can't tell you which specific segments.
The James Whitcomb Riley - NYC - I believe the KB&S still operates between Kankakee and Lafayette but I think Lafayette to Indianapolis is abandoned and some if not all of the Indy to Cincy line.
I wish I could lay my hands on the recent issue of Trains which had the map of the Rock Island lines. I'm fairly certain that the segments of the former routes of the Choctaw, Texas, Twin Star and Zephyr Rockets and Golden State Ltd have been abandoned.
P.S. I was surprised to learn that only the last 90 or so miles of the T&P into El Paso had been abandoned. I thought much more of the line south of FtW had been torn up.
Ignore the P.S. I added to my last reply. I just remembered that the T&P accessed El Paso over the SP's Sunset Route from Sierra Blanca which makes the entire former T&P route between FtW and El Paso still in service.
KCSfanZephyrOverland The Blue Grass or Bluegrass (what Mike described in his submission) was a Chicago-Louisville Monon train running around 1948. The Blue Grass Special was a PRR Chicago-Louisville train operating in the early 1950's I think it was in 1947 or '48 when the Monon streamlined their three train passenger fleet. The daytime Chi - Louisville train was the Thoroughbred. I vaguely recall there had been an overnight train on this route as well and wonder if this was the Bluegrass or if the Blugrass was a daytime predecessor of the Thoroughbred. I think the Monon discontinued the overnight train around the time they put the streamliners in service. Mark
The Bluegrass was the overnight train.
The Louisville Night Express, a new train reviving Pullman service to French Lick in 1946, was renamed the Bluegrass in 1948 and was discontinued in 1949. Meanwhile the Louisville Day Express, also new in 1946, was renamed the Thoroughbred and ran relatively forever.
DeggestyCan you come up with more before tomorrow evening?
It looks as though no one can list more than the 15 good ones that Mark listed.
Comments on some of his listings. Yes, you can't go through Butte now as you could (and I did on 4-14-71) on the NP. There is another section of track, in Georgia, which was used by the IC's trains to Jacksonville and such; a large part of the ACL's line between Albany and Lang is not there now, so the City of Miami is grounded in Miami-Dade county, and the Florida State University's athletic teams are permanently benched (yet the 'Noles really shocked Utahns Saturday evening). Much of the SAL's line between Atlanta and Birmingham is gone, so the Silver Comet has left the sky, and the Cotton Blossom has been picked. In its last months of operation, the Silver Comet was a Washington-Atlanta train, but the abandonment of track between Collier and Raleigh took care of the train altogether.
There was another stretch of track in Georgia, between Raymond and a point north of Columbus, which put Man O' War out to pasture permanently.
I had thought to ask for these three stretches of track in Georgia, with their trains, but decided to stretch the horizon somewhat.
Dave, I think you meant the Northern Central and not the Baltimore Northern. Two of its components were the Baltimore & Susquehanna and the York & Cumberland.
No one mentioned the B&O's line across West Virginia to Parkersburg and on into Ohio; this took such trains as the National Limited and Diplomat out.
There was also a stretch of track in S. C., which carried the Southern's Skyland Special (Asheville-Jacksonville/Miami); I believe that almost all of the track between Columbia and Hardeeville (I rode over this on my first rail trip, when I was two years old) is now gone. The Southern had trackage rights on in to Jacksonville.
Yes, none of the PRR's trains from Pittsburgh to Indianapolis and on to Terre Haute could run now--Spirit of St. Louis, Penn Texas, and American, among others.
The merger of Erie and DL&W really changed many trains, as the better track of each road was used here and there, and now, as has been mentioned, many segments necessary to the merged road's trains have been been abandoned by Conrail.
Given time, we could come up with more stretches of track that once had well-patronized passenger service, but we will let it rest for now and give Mark the opportunity to ask his next question, which I am sure he will fire off as soon as he reads this.
It's been good hunting.
Thanks Johnny. Here goes.
If you were so inclined you might enjoy an after dinner snifter of brandy and a good . Part of what trains name fills in the blank, what was its route and the railroad over which it ran?
Well, some elegant types might follow up with a glass of Port. A British tradition I believe, and observed when I did some acoustics consulting for a traditionally oriented and very musical High Anglican church (Episcopalian with British accent). Everything about the place was absolutely first class and the entire congregation could sing at the Metropolitan Opera. Worship services as fine as concerts. 1st class pipe organ and organist, also. So, we have the UP (and C&NW) Portland Rose, Chi and KC to Portland and UP-C&NW City of Portland. Doctors have told me to stay off alchohol completely. At 77. What pity.
Greetings Dave,
I wonder where that church was? As I move in ecclesiastical circles most days I am curious.
Regarding port. Yes. often to be encountered in rarified places: personally I prefer sherry, but of course it must be genuine a Spanish one. Reasonable sized British railway station usually have a bar and many named passenger trains also did. (May still do). When I joined the RAF (a long while ago) I traveled on a train with a bar. I was only 17½ at the time and the legal age limit was 18 or above. I was served however.
There is no British accent. It is either English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish (Ulster) which all have regional variations. It is surprising how many variations there are. In this County alone a cognizant hearer would identify at least four variations of the local dialect,
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
Sorry Dave but it's not port or either of the Portland trains that I had in mind. 1932 was certainly a vintage year. I'll also be 77 on the 30th of this month but fortunately my doctors have placed no restrictions on my intake of alcohol. I suggest you find another doctor and in the meantime think some more about the answer to this question.
KCSfanThanks Johnny. Here goes. If you were so inclined you might enjoy an after dinner snifter of brandy and a good . Part of what trains name fills in the blank, what was its route and the railroad over which it ran? Mark
The Cigar Valley Express - NH/BM - New York-White River Junction
Right on Zephyr. Light yourself up one and ask the next question.
Never heard of Cigar Valley? Me neither. It's real though.
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