Aside from being blue and not red, MoPac didn't get the C&EI until long after St. Louis service was dropped. Think of the remaining competitors in the same C&EI/Wabash market.
Milwaukee passengers changed trains in Savanna.
The GM&O had a connecting service (not very good westbound, but decent eastbound) at Bloomington. I am not sure just how the GM&O got into Kansas City.
Johnny
The connection point on the Milwaukee service was probably Ceder Rapids, to a branchline train. If it was to a through train from the north, it would be Savannah.
Apparently posted without seeing the above. I had checked on the GM&O, but the map I saw didn't show the KC line for some reason.
Johnny has the final answer. GM&O's doodlebug wandered from Bloomington to Kansas City, crossing the Mississippi River at Jacksonville IL , the Wabash at Mexico MO and coming in from almost straight east. The line is owned by Kansas City Southern now.
CMStP&P's trains 25 and 26 from Milwaukee to Kansas City met up with the Chicago-Omaha Arrow at Savanna Il in the middle of the night and swapped passengers. At one point 25 and 26 had carried through cars from Chicago along with the name Southwestern Limited.
Dave did all of the drudge work, so he gets the next go.
There were seven railroads that had cars thatwere built and that were used for multiple-unit electric suburban service, but at times were hauled in suburban regular service by steam locomotives.
In certain cases trips or specific trips would be partially self-propelled and partially behind steam.
Other cases saw steam operation preceding electrification completion.
A last case saw demotered mu cars in a suburban operation in a different city.
Give the details in all seven cases, including type of electrication, typical steam locomotives used. reasons for the steam operation, dates, etc.
I can give a start
The PRSL had a 1200 VDC third rail electrified line from Camden to Atlantic City which was originally steam hauled. Most of the cars were wooden. The electrification ended in 1949 and the few steel cars (MP54d) were demotored and used behind steam (PRR 4-6-0, 4-4-2, 4-6-0, and Reading 4-6-2 and 4-4-2)
The Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn electrified a very successful narrow gauge steam commuter system in 1928. The existing steam hauled cars were modified for DC overhead (I suspect 600V but do not know). The steam locomotives (0-4-4T) were scrapped or sold.
The New York, Westchester and Boston was built as a 11,000 VAC overhead electric railroad. The railroad was not successful and upon liquidation the MU cars were demotored. Some ended up in Texas shuttling workers to a shipyard while the remainder ended up in Boston suburban service for the New Haven undoubtedly hauled by steam at both places.
The Delaware, Lacawanna and Western electrified its steam hauled New Jersey commuter lines in 1929 with 3000 VDC overhead. While the motor cars were new the MU trailer cars were former steam hauled coaches, combines, baggage and RPOs. I suspect the steam locomotives were camelback 4-6-0's
Reading Company electrified its steam hauled Philadelphia suburban lines ca 1920s using 11,000 25 Hz VDC overhead. While the motor cars were new the MU trailer cars were former steam hauled coaches. The steam locomotives used were 2-6-4Ts, and camelback 4-6-0s and camelback 4-4-0s.
The Pennsylvania electrified its steam hauled lines east of Harrisburg starting in 1915 using 11,000 25 Hz VAC overhead. The Pennsy built a fleet of P54 coaches and combines with all of the necessary equipment to convert them to MU cars. Most of them were converted but were pulled by steam, 4-4-0, 4-6-0, 4-4-2, and 4-6-2, until converted.
Southern Pacific electrified its steam hauled commuter lines around Oakland using 1200 VDC overhead. The electrification was abandoned in the early 1930s and the cars stored. The demotored cars were requisitioned by the government for use at various WW II shipyards where they were hauled by steam (who knows what type).
Beyond that I suspect that some of the Illinois Central MU cars (trailers?) were converted steam coaches. Additionally at least some of the MP54s used by the Long Island may have been hauled by steam prior to coversion. Also LI may have moved some of the MUs with steam locomotives when positioning them for "Bridge" service at Jamaica
And for demotored MU cars being used elsewhere let's not forget AMTRAKs metroliner push-pull conversions.
An ERA publication on the PRSL electrification stated that the dc MP54 steel cars were scrapped with parts saved for use with the acMP54 cars still in use, so the PRSL is not part of the answer. The Boston Revere Beach and Lynn is not part of the answer because electrification was not in mind when those wood open-platform cars were built. They were successfully electrified by GE with a 600V trolleywire electrification, and one standard narrow-gauge MCB-type drop-equalizer truck replaced by a two-motored Brill narrow-gauge version of their standard leaf-spring equalizer 77E streetcar truck. And of course your comment about Amtrak's use of ex-Metroliner mus is quite correct, but does not involve steam.
One railroad had regularly scheduled rush hour mus running behind steam to extend their use a few stations beyond electrification's limits right up to a few years after WWII with two inbound trips in the morning and two outbound in the evening. Regular power were lighting-generator-equipped Pacifics but sometimes something more classy and interesting would show up. Which railroad and where?
daveklepper But Ithought the Interurban Electric cars all went to PacificiElectric around LA.
The SP electrification around Oakland was a real mixed bag. There were street trolleys, true interurbans (which went to the PE) and the Big Cars which were similar, but larger, than the PRR MP54s. Those largest cars were the ones which were later requisitioned by the government.
The cars that were requisitioned were the ones mortgaged to the California Toll Bridge Authority for the cost of the required train control equipment for operating on the Bay Bridge. Like Sacramento Northern, IER defaulted on the mortgage since it was worth as much as the cars. Five of SN's cars ended up in Key System service, but the SP's cars were sold to the Houston Shop Corporation, which resold them to the US government. Some of IER's rail was used in building the Shipyard Railway to Richmond, which ran on East Bay Transit and newly built tracks from 1942-1945 using former New York Elevated (IRT?) cars.
South Shore Line belongs in this category. Prior to the Insull purchase, through cars ran between Gary and Randolph Street, with the cars being handed over to IC steam trains at 115th Street. After the Insull purchase and prior to the completion of the IC electrification, all South Shore trains ran through to Randolph Street, pulled by IC steam north of 115th Street. This even occurred briefly after the new steel cars entered service.
"This even occurred briefly after the new steel cars entered service."
The IC asked CSS&SB to remove the trolley poles that were installed on the steel cars (along with pantographs) when through electric operation began. Photos of CSS&SB steel cars being pulled by IC tank engines show the poles.
We still jave one railroad left, with the mu cars regularly hauled beyond the end of electrificatoin into the post-WWII era. I should note that all steel cars of azll the railroads mentioned were built with electrif\cation in mind. But not the BRB&L narrow-gauge open-platform wood cars.
Would css or rc like to esxpand comments on the IC "tank enginers?" And what was so special about a PRR suburban steam locomotive?
The original Erie Stillwell suburban cars were bult with electrfication in mind.
t
daveklepperThe original Erie Stillwell suburban cars were bult with electrfication in mind.
Many of the CNJ suburban cars were built for easy electrification, some even had the pantograph mounts installed. The conversion to Push-Pull was easy because the cars were already designed to lead.
New York Central hauled Harlem Line trains beyond the end of the third rail with steam. They may have done it on the Hudson Line as well.
In my experience, it was only the Hudson line, with two morning trains from Peekskill and twp retirmomg om tjej eveming. A lot of the NYCenntral's first generation mus had steam heat piping and connections in addition to electric risistor heating. I suspect the IC suburban cars and other commuter railroads may have had this also.
The Harlem ine may have done this before I becamem observant.
Since DS4 got 6 of the 9 correct answers, the next question is his.
Deggesty Milwaukee passengers changed trains in Savanna. The GM&O had a connecting service (not very good westbound, but decent eastbound) at Bloomington. I am not sure just how the GM&O got into Kansas City.
Across the bridge at Louisiana, MO. Over the old Alton. Ran a motor car. The trip was made famous by Trains Magazine and is the subject of an available video.
By the way....I'm baaaaaack
Flying Crow
So the Alton reached the KC Terminal on its own track? That was really what I did not know.
Welcome back Buck. Been missing you and wondereing where you've been hiding.
Mark
Thanks, Mark. Well, I changed jobs, ended up in the stupid hospital, blah blah....Classic Trains may be cool, but becoming "classic" yourself sort of sux.
But, I'm back and looking forward to chatting it up and answering questions all over again.
ABD
Johnny.... until the GM&O (ALTON) reaches Independence, MO, it's on it's own rails. It sort of plays "tag" with the Wabash across Missouri. Comes in over the HST Bridge and joins the Terminal out around Sheffield JCT. Their "agency" and engine facility was just north of the Frisco's in the West Bottoms. The only yard I was thrown out of in my misspent youth!
For those of you who also get "Trains"... The GM&O line is the KCS line to Mexico MO on page 46 of the March issue. I indicated that the CGW line to KC was abandoned - I didn't know CGW had rights over MP from St. Joseph, so that's the UP line to Marysville in the upper left of the same map. The RI/Milwaukee line is shown as UP/CP, and the CB&Q/Wabash line is BNSF/NS. CB&Q's own line into KC is now the Kaw River. The Brookfield sub with Wabash trackage rights speeded up CB&Q's route enough for them to offer two new Zephyrs in 1952.
We're waiting for you DS-4-4-1000!
FlyingCrow Johnny.... until the GM&O (ALTON) reaches Independence, MO, it's on it's own rails. It sort of plays "tag" with the Wabash across Missouri. Comes in over the HST Bridge and joins the Terminal out around Sheffield JCT. Their "agency" and engine facility was just north of the Frisco's in the West Bottoms. The only yard I was thrown out of in my misspent youth!
As to the CGW, its passenger trains came through Leavenworth, Kansas, being as how they stopped in Leavenworth, and apparently used the Santa Fe to reach the KCT.
Nope, the Great Western used the MP to get into KC. I've made the cab ride way back in the good ol' days. They clattered across the MO River bridge, stopped and backed into Leavenworth. Then proceeded south along the river, came across at the West Bottoms, through the puzzles and what is called Santa Fe or Chicago Jct (depending on who you talk to) and up the ramp onto the Terminal and into Union Station.
The Alto/GM&O came in from almost straight east, through Independence, joining the KCT at Rock Creek Jct. The Wabash line from St. Louis to Kansas City crossed the Alton at Mexico MO, and the MP at Independence. Some maps from the pre-B&O era show the Alton having rights on the Wabash into St. Louis from Mexico.
Since it is my turn I will ask what should be an easy one, albeit not quite 50 years old.
What one town did all but one of the class one railroads that became Conrail serve at the time of Conrail's creation?
I'm taking a whack at READING
The Reading Company was the Class 1 that did not serve the town. But what town did all of the others serve?
Not necessarily in passenger service, Newark, NJ
Close, the right state but not the right town. There were two that did not serve Newark NJ. Erie Lackawanna and the Lehigh and Hudson River had no presence in Newark but Penn Central, Reading, Lehigh Valley, and CNJ were there in Newark.
Here's where I'm getting a little boggled. The Ann Arbor became a part of Conrail. Well, eventually "some of it" stayed. But it was in the orginal consolidation. So are we skipping the Annie here because, for sure, it did not go to New Jersey.
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