Update was made in post#2, adding info of new passenger car orders or related topics from 1954 to 1970.
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
I rode coach overnight many times: New Haven Naragansette, New York Central Wolverine, Atlantic Coast Line - RF&P - PRR West Coast Champion, Havana Special, SAL Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Tidewater, AT&SF El Cap, PRR Red Arrow, Trailblazer. I do not recall being bothered by snoring. I think that if the problem had arose, I probably just moved to another seat, possibly relocating the seat check on the baggage-rack face, something I remember doing at least once for other reasons.
First overnight coach trip in 1943, age 11, NY - Detroit on the Woverine (alone). Last 1969, LA - Chicago on the El Cap. Last long distance sleeper trip, Jan 1996, W. Palm Beach - NY, roomette. First, to summer camp, age 6, 1938, State-of-Maine, NY - Concord, NH, shared lower berth.
The only reason I brought this thing up was that I am a person very sensitive to noises during sleep, so l believe passenger's snoring, especially heavy snoring wasn't a big deal to many other passengers in the past. Moreover, I guess when the train was traveling at speed, the level of noise would be high enough to cover any noise made by the passenger, wasn't it?
Snoring could also be disturbing in open section cars--there was the story of a LOUD snorer who kept other passengers awake until he gave a loud snort and turned over. Whereupon another passenger exclaimed ,"Thank heavens; he died!"
Johnny
That just made my day! I heard Pullman open-section sleeper was not loved by traveller anymore when newer cars and services like roomette was available in early-40s. I don't mind sitting with a stranger face to face during the day time, I see it as a chance to make new friends. If my "berthmate" had a bad day and was being difficult or didn't feel comfortable to communicate, I would go to the lounge car, order some drinks and stay there, talk to the staffs, listen and observe. I wonder if there was any interesting story about making friends or passenger found his/her future wife or husband on the named train.
1939, inside the POC70R observation car #1121, LIFE magazine
This is moving away from the theme of the thread--but I met the woman whom I married in the first class dome on the City of Portland in April of 1971. She was on her back to Boise on a reound trip to Poertland before the train was discontinued, and I was on my first trip to the West Coast, riding as much as I could of the lines that were to have no passenger service after the end of the month. Fifteen months later, we were married.
DeggestyThis is moving away from the theme of the thread--but I met the woman whom I married in the first class dome on the City of Portland in April of 1971. She was on her back to Boise on a reound trip to Poertland before the train was discontinued, and I was on my first trip to the West Coast, riding as much as I could of the lines that were to have no passenger service after the end of the month. Fifteen months later, we were married.
Thank you very much for the sharing, that is absolutly wonderful and romantic!
I am going to "adjust" the title of this post a little bit so that our forum members and reader could share and read more topics in one post.
Jones1945 daveklepper The blank posting was meant to discuss the introductin of the Creek sleepers to the Broadway, with their single bedrooms, which, in addition to the 15-1/2 hour eastbound running time, may have brought some Century patrons to the Broadway. It seems that postwar Broadway was doing better than the prewar one, if I was traveling alone in 50s, I would pick a single bedroom instead of roomette since I don't want other passenger to see me wearing a silly pajamas when I making my bed of the roomette. If I could visit 1940s again, I would at least try the Trial Blazer once, since I want to know how serious the snoring noise was inside a 56 seats coaches.
daveklepper The blank posting was meant to discuss the introductin of the Creek sleepers to the Broadway, with their single bedrooms, which, in addition to the 15-1/2 hour eastbound running time, may have brought some Century patrons to the Broadway.
The blank posting was meant to discuss the introductin of the Creek sleepers to the Broadway, with their single bedrooms, which, in addition to the 15-1/2 hour eastbound running time, may have brought some Century patrons to the Broadway.
My experience in viewing the PRR (middle 50's to PC), and riding it one time - about 1957 or so. The equipment did not appear to be cleaned and maintained to the level of other carriers I had the opportunity to view or ride. From my childs point of view, PRR had lost 'Esprit de Corps' in their passenger offerings and it showed. Viewing equipment at WUS and its exterior was always less than clean and shiney. My lone family round trip from Baltimore to New York and return was on a Parlor Car - the seats appeared worn and the carpet trending toward threadbare. While PRR personnel made efforts to satisfy their customers - their 'New York Style' was not appreciated by some. (New Yorker's can audiblely be distinguished a mile away - they don't hear it but non New Yorker's do.)
My perceptions as a child - 60 years removed.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I travelled on the Broadway Limited from NY Penn Station to Pittsburgh in Seprember 1977. There was some confusion with the printed timetable and when we went to book our seats we were told that the train was the Broadway.
It still had the two unit Budd diners that had arrived with the post war tuscan red train. These had the Budd non fluted sides, where the ribs were further apart and flat stainless panels were used in place of the "fluted" panels. The sides had been acid etched to take the Tuscan Red, but were still silver and didn't look too bad with the Amtrak "Phase II" window bands.
Of course, we had a meal, and were able to use the bench seats provided in the full length diner while waiting for a table to become available. It was not a luxury dining experience, but Amtrak's standard meals were pretty good at that time.
In 1980, I was in Seattle in conjunction with inspecting four new Frigates for the Royal Australian Navy being built by Todd Seattle. (Two were already complete and in San Pedro, and a fourth was still on the slip at Todd.) Some time during the visit I decided that I'd check out the area for rairoad activity. To my amazement I found three two car Broadway Limited Dining car sets standing in sidings. I've no idea who owned them. I expect that they were scrapped, but I was amazed to see then again on the West Coast.
Peter
I wish I could remember more of my first night in a Pullman--in January of 1962 I spent a night in a PRR 10-6 between Hattiesburg and Birmingham. Since it was my first such experience, I simply enjoyed the luxury of undressing and stretching out on the berth, and not having to wake up and shift my position in the night.
BaltACD ……My lone family round trip from Baltimore to New York and return was on a Parlor Car - the seats appeared worn and the carpet trending toward threadbare. While PRR personnel made efforts to satisfy their customers - their 'New York Style' was not appreciated by some. (New Yorker's can audiblely be distinguished a mile away - they don't hear it but non New Yorker's do.)
M636C……Some time during the visit I decided that I'd check out the area for railroad activity. To my amazement I found three two car Broadway Limited Dining car sets standing in sidings. I've no idea who owned them. I expect that they were scrapped, but I was amazed to see then again on the West Coast.
DeggestyI wish I could remember more of my first night in a Pullman--in January of 1962 I spent a night in a PRR 10-6 between Hattiesburg and Birmingham. Since it was my first such experience, I simply enjoyed the luxury of undressing and stretching out on the berth, and not having to wake up and shift my position in the night.
US Marine Commander James Devereux returns from Wake Island to Washington DC. HD Stock Footage
Commander James Devereux took a PRR Pullman Sleeper, which was painted with F.O.M scheme, back to DC in 1945
Updates was made today:
Adding 50 P70gsr Coach Nos. 4310-4359 (Paired Windows) on the list, base on the information provided by the Coach Yard, total number of Betterman Cars carried F.O.M scheme with actual car number provided increased from 162 to 212. (total = 248 approx.)
P70gsr Coach (Paired Windows, early design)
I forget this one: OEW 330 gas/electric car #4663, even though she didn't carry a complete F.O.M scheme. ( Without golden strips on both side)
Before refurbishment.
(source: http://prr.railfan.net/ )
Aug 21, 1941 from HAGLEY DIGITAL ARCHIVES.
Update was made on the first page, adding 88 lightweight car purchased from Pullman Standard in 2 lots from 1939-40, base on the information in the book "The Car of Pullman" by Joe Welsh.
I will confirm it by checking the actual Pullman car number from the Pullman Car list when I have time. If you have information about this topic, please feel free to post them here, thank you for your attention!
I found this little pic from the online archieve of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. This is actually the first time I found a color rendering of the "Unit Train" project, which was supposed to upgrade the Broadway Limited in early 30s leading by Loewy but cancelled and replaced by his new idea: the Fleet of Modernism.
Aug. 17, 1936
"Staff meeting of VP's Charles D. Young, John F. Deasy and Walter S. Franklin considers the situation of Western railroads operating one or two "show" trains, like the Zephyr, Hiawatha, or Chief at very high speeds, reversing the trend where Eastern railroads traditionally had the edge in speed; urge placing two articulated lightweight two-car sets on the Broadway Limited, including Advance and Progress now running on the NYC; could bring weight down to under 450 tons, vs. 660 tons for existing heavyweights, and run Paoli-Chicago in 13:00; urges PRR to buy or build lightweight cars. (CMP)"
Sep. 14, 1936
"Pres. Clement presents memo on lightweight trains to Board; proposes a program to build nine lightweight trainsets, two of 12 cars for Broadway Limited, two of 10 cars for Liberty Limited, two of 12 cars for American/"Spirit of St. Louis", and two of 13 and 14 cars for The Congressional. (CMP)"
Sep. 28, 1936 (The "Mistake")
"Electro-Motive Corporation makes a formal proposal to furnish a 3,600 HP two-unit road passenger diesel that can haul the Broadway Limited between Paoli and Chicago, cutting the total running time from 16:30 to 15:00 flat. (CMP)"
Nov. 21, 1936
VP Charles D. Young in a memo to VP's John F. Deasy and Walter S. Franklin questions why they are planning for 102 seats in the new Broadway Limited, when the train only carries 30-35 passengers; suggests running lightweight equipment as an entirely new train without extra fare. (CMP)
http://www.prrths.com/newprr_files/Hagley/PRR1936%204_15_15.pdf
A conceptual design of an observation car, note there is no door and couper at the front end.
Bonus:
May 4, 1937
Gen. Douglas MacArthur departs New York on The Broadway Limited en route to the Philippines; MacArthur has been made Field Marshal to command the Philippine Army, which is distinct from the U.S. forces in the Philippines. (PR, Smith/FDR)
http://www.prrths.com/newprr_files/Hagley/PRR1937%204_15_15.pdf
Note that this is right at the time period when UP and Milwaukee were discovering that separable full-size consists were preferable to lightweight motor trains of the future. I suspect that is part of what guided PRR not to make the attempt; I can't really imagine a lightweight Broadway even with full sleeper accommodations, and of course the Trail Blazer is what actually introduced lightweight modernism in the 'right' context for PRR.
I can't imagine any rebuilding of PRR steam of that era that would support a 15-hour timing, even with the shorter route (vs. NYC). And a duplex 'rightsized' for one of those lightweight consists would be too small for alternative trains, but a T1 would be overkill at any practical increased speed outside the electrification (which presumably would have gone to Pittsburgh on the original '30s priority schedule if EMD locomotives weren't adopted).
On the other hand we all have failed to find pictures of the proposed Pennsy '30s E8 ... no, that's not a typo, it would have been an oil-fired 84"-drivered Atlantic probably quite similar to a Baldwin version of the Milwaukee A. I'm surprised there is no mention of this being 'preferred' power for the PRR lightweight train service. I suspect if anyone can find pictorial references you can.
Overmod Note that this is right at the time period when UP and Milwaukee were discovering that separable full-size consists were preferable to lightweight motor trains of the future. I suspect that is part of what guided PRR not to make the attempt; I can't really imagine a lightweight Broadway even with full sleeper accommodations, and of course the Trail Blazer is what actually introduced lightweight modernism in the 'right' context for PRR.
Overmod I can't imagine any rebuilding of PRR steam of that era that would support a 15-hour timing, even with the shorter route (vs. NYC). And a duplex 'rightsized' for one of those lightweight consists would be too small for alternative trains, but a T1 would be overkill at any practical increased speed outside the electrification (which presumably would have gone to Pittsburgh on the original '30s priority schedule if EMD locomotives weren't adopted).
OvermodOn the other hand we all have failed to find pictures of the proposed Pennsy '30s E8 ... no, that's not a typo, it would have been an oil-fired 84"-drivered Atlantic probably quite similar to a Baldwin version of the Milwaukee A. I'm surprised there is no mention of this being 'preferred' power for the PRR lightweight train service. I suspect if anyone can find pictorial references you can.
Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania
By the way, there is one thing I forgot about the Fleet of Modernism, which is the power of the fleet. GG1 and R1 were the power within the electrified territory, they were powerful and fast enough to represent the new fleet, but there were only two "new"steam train; PRR #3768 and S1 #6100 powered the fleet outside the electrified territory. K4s without streamlining was the prime power of this “modernized” fleet even after four streamlined K4s and two duplex prototypes put into service by 1942. So, Unlike MILW’s Hiawatha or NYC’s 20th Century, the Fleet of Modernism wasn’t a fleet 100% streamlined, from the engine to the car, west of Harrisburg!
If everyone wasn't in such a damned hurry these days, this would be the way to go! I took Amtrak City of New Orleans in 1994, It was about 14 hours late, not counting my connection being 24 hours off, due to a stoppage at Englewood. Amtrak did put me up in a hotel in CHI for the night, but I still missed one day/night in New Orleans. Still was a good trip...
Todd
Overmod Note that this is right at the time period when UP and Milwaukee were discovering that separable full-size consists were preferable to lightweight motor trains of the future.
Note that this is right at the time period when UP and Milwaukee were discovering that separable full-size consists were preferable to lightweight motor trains of the future.
I assume you meant to write "UP and Burlington", although there a couple of other roads using fully articulated trainsets.
Glad you caught that... although no, I did write 'Milwaukee' thinking about consists pulled by 4-4-2s becoming obsolescent quickly and this necessitating larger locomotives. Forgetting utterly about lightweight consists in the process.
3rd rail If everyone wasn't in such a damned hurry these days, this would be the way to go! I took Amtrak City of New Orleans in 1994, It was about 14 hours late, not counting my connection being 24 hours off, due to a stoppage at Englewood. Amtrak did put me up in a hotel in CHI for the night, but I still missed one day/night in New Orleans. Still was a good trip...
For tourist-oriented train trains like City of New Orleans of Amtrak, speed is never a big problem, just as many long-distance overnight trains in the past like UP's the City of LA, Santa Fe's Super chief or PRR's South Wind, their target customer were families, retired people, individuals taking holiday break or tourists from different states and countries. Unlike those trains served the North East Corridor like the PRR's Congressional or Senator, their target costumer were businessman, executives or political figures and their retinues. Time is money in business world, so passenger on these train not only expected the trains arrive on time, they didn't want to spend too much time on transportation neither.
Even a 2 hours and 50 mins service schedule for NY to D.C still wasn’t fast enough to save the last trump card of PRR form the challenge of regional airlines, speed is no doubt an essential factor of RRs competitiveness.
PRR K4s #5471 leading the Trail Blazer. It was probably a 8-car section of the mentioned train. A "semi-streamliner" ? (1940)
Betterment car POC70R coach-observation carrying the original Trail Blazer keystone plate. (Winter, 1939)
The Trail Blazer in early 1940s, A 12-car consist leading by K4s (S1 can't be that small).
A rare color photo of PRR's betterment car, probably a P70KR coach, using the same interior color scheme as the Pullman lightweight sleeper of 1938.
Note the chairback of the reclining seat was rather short! The staff was changing the direction of the seats.
I am not sure if this is a pic of the rebuilt twin unit dining car. Note the light trough above the windows.
Let me interject some 'ambiance' to the times to something that was taking place outside the railroads but highlights some of the thinking at the time.
BaltACD Let me interject some 'ambiance' to the times to something that was taking place outside the railroads but highlights some of the thinking at the time.
Nice Video, Balt. Interesting to see comments were inclined to love the SS Normandie more than the RMS Queen Mary. I love steam powered Ocean Liner since I was a child and my father always mentioned about Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and the Titanic. The Former never impressed me anyway. They were good ships but not progressive enough for my taste. If I can afford a first-class ticket in that era, why would I travel on the second most expensive ship instead of the best one? The SS Normandie was not only the most expensive one in terms of construction cost, but she was also beautiful, revolutionary from inside to outside.
Nevertheless, the competition between SS Normandie and RMS Queen Mary was legendary. We couldn't experience the same style of traveling anymore. Limited trains powered by the steam engine plus steam powered Ocean liner was the best package of traveling. But both types of transportation were replaced by the Iron birds.
WELCOME TO THE BLOODY FUTURE.
A rare photo showing Pullman Muskingum River, an all-stainless steel 2/1/1 buffet lounge attached to a PRR F.O.M car:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12349544773/
A scale model of Muskingum River:
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