I've watched about half of Hell on Wheels. I'm truly put off by the run-down condiion of those all-black locomotives, which would have been nearly new at the time. There are an awful lot of historical inaccuracies in the actual progress of the railroad, in order to further the dramatic line. It's interesting, and has some interesting things to say, but it's not history.
As to the original question, I don't think there's any one person who could or should be cited. Some outstanding individuals have been mentioned. However, I am a bit surprised that Gen. Herman Haupt has not been mentioned (unless I missed it).
Tom
No one's mentioned General Haupt, although I'm sure most of us know who he was.
Certainly a great rairoader during the Civil War years, he made the US Military Railroad system into the war-winner it was, but General Haupt's influence seems to have waned after the war ended. You don't here much (or anything) about him for the rest of the 19th Century.
This doesn't mean he didn't have a productive life, not by any means. It just strikes me he had his time in the spotlight and when it was over he returned to comfortable obscurity as a professional railroader.
Although I'm sure he enjoyed the hell out of being called "General" for the rest of his life!
PS: After reading ACY's comments on "Hell on Wheels" I'm glad I didn't bother with it. I'd have gone out of my mind.
If we want Civil War-related figures, why not mention Lincoln -- not Abraham, but his son, who was not unknown in the railroad community in the period after the late unpleasantness...
Firelock:
I would question the notion that General Haupt's influence diminished after the Civil War. He imposed military discipline on a railroad system that was fragmented and loosely operated before the war. By the time the war was over, it was well understood that railroads had to operate with greater discipline if they were to succeed at all. After the war, veterans took Haupt's lessons to every corner of the country as the National rail system expanded. Haupt himself slipped out of the limelight, but that's not the point. I think the point is his influence, and that was significant no matter how you slice it. This does not necessarily mean Haupt is the one and only most influential railroader. I frankly don't believe there is any one such person. But Haupt is certainly a person to be remembered in the discussion.
On the other hand, if there is one factor that led to trouble in railroading, it was the imposition of military-style discipline (necessary as that may have been at times!) in the fundamental systems. We're still paying the price in blood in a number of nontrivial ways. The forms of discipline required, and the manner in which 'management' and labor interacted, could and should have been more appropriate to safe operation of traffic than to rigid execution of often arbitrary orders from above. That wouldn't have stopped the development of adversarial relationships between the 'crafts' and ownership, but might have mitigated the difficulties between the crafts and management, which is a very different thing and became far more important with the rise of 'scientific management' and all the changes it enabled.
Surely not all railroads operated with the same managerial style and some must have had a greater degree of flexibility in operations and everyday running than others ..and I do mean at a fundamental level. Perhaps not?
I have read among the posters the huge differences between management styles and fundamentals with the NYC and the Pennsy. Also..was this a worldwide phenomenon, as in Europe, Australia, Canada?
I was thinking more about operating standards & rules than management styles.
Well, the military influence on railroading started before the Civil War. The new industry needed trained engineers and the only school in the US turning them out on a regular basis was West Point. Irregardless of what branch of the service cadets planned on going into all got engineer training.
So, many West Point grads found themselves railroading. Hermann Haupt was certainly one of them, so was George McClellan and Ambrose Burnside, to name a few. Peacetime promotions in the army were agonizingly slow, the opportunity was there and the money was good, very good. It's fun to speculate how different American history might have been if Robert E. Lee who's specialty WAS engineering had left the army and gone railroading.
Some military terms that entered railroading are "divisions" and "sections," an old term for squads. The military habit of signitures using the signers first two initials before the last name found it's way into railroading.
As to just how far the military atmosphere entered into the railroad way of life, that really depended on the 'road, no one size fits all. Bear in mind the railroad is a civilian job after all. A "kick-butt" military atmosphere isn't going to work too well with people that can up and quit anytime they want!
That makes sense Firelock76- thanks for the input. I'm heading out on Sunday down south for my annual "chase trains all over the prairies". Usually there are long lines of grain hoppers stored all over the place and I'm anxious to see what's up this year. Growing up in the busy main lines of Southern Ontario is a world apart from the prairies but each town, most of them, still has that railroad going through it, not around it, and many still have grain elevators in place although many no longer in use. Also at times you can see the entire length of the train, it's a different perspective, and can follow them with the eye for some distance as it passes. Really don't plan much of a route, just serendipity but eventually get to the big busy main lines way down south by Regina and over to Winnipeg. From there it's all planned. I'm heading to Rochelle and the Illinois Railway Museum. Then a quick stop into Chicago to get some authentic Chicago Blackhawk gear. Some railfanning on the extreme outskirts of the Windy City and then home via Havre. Then my summer is shot and back to teaching preparation last week in August. Students arrive shortly after. Oh...and pick up some election paraphernalia, both sides, bumper stickers, buttons and the like...should be fun.
Hmmmm, won't bringing Chicago Blackhawk souvenirs into Canada get you arrested for treason?
Firelock76- No no, dosent work like that..hockey is #1 and the team is a personal choice, usually from childhood. My hometown team, the St Catherine's TeePees were a farm team for the Blackhawks. Many future stars came up that way, Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Pierre Pilot, Phil Esposito and son on.
Now football is a different matter..it's the Saskatchewan Roughriders and that's it. Anything else would get you tied up in a canoe and sent down the river for the next town to deal with this problem.
For American football, I am a long suffering Buffalo Bills fan. Sigh.
Miningman, that's a relief! I'd hate to have you crossing back into Canada, have that Blackhawk gear out in the open, and then hear that bone-chilling cry...
'"HALT! IN THE NAME OF THE CROWN!"
Isn't that what Sergeant Preston used to stop the bad guys with? I'd hate to be on the recieving end myself!
Yes, if the border agents call in the RCMP then you are in some serious do-do. People get nervous at the border crossings. If you tell the truth, show them what you bought with receipts and show respect there is no need to worry. Looking forward to my annual railfan outing.
Hey, have fun! Looks like someone besides me remembers "Sergeant Preston of the Yukon." Man, when I was a kid I loved that show!
Firelock76Looks like someone besides me remembers "Sergeant Preston of the Yukon."
I loved dog stories when I was little, and my father thought Robert Service was a good poet, so the Yukon of the gold-rush days (The Serum Must Get to Nome!) was a familiar part of my childhood. But less the Sgt. Preston than the Nelson Eddy version ...
which of course spawned this:
(Firelock, do you speak English as well as anyone from New Jersey? I know I do...)
Ovahmahd, of cawse I speak Englich as well as ennybody from New Jerrsee duz!
Gotta go home wunce inna while to re-inforce the accent, doncha know?
Byda way, just so da rest of ya know, peeple from New Jerrsee, don't callit "New Joisey," peeple from New Yawk call it dat, peeple from New Jerrsee call it "F*****' New Jersee!"
Capishe?
Anyway, the above refers to people from north of the Raritan River, southern New Jersey areas in the orbit of Philadelphia or the Shore areas are a different matter entirely!
And Corporal Agarn's being from Passaic, New Jersey? According to Larry Storch that just popped into his head when they needed a home town for Agarn, Larry's a New York City kid!
RCMP headquarters are here in Saskatchewan, in Regina, they still perform the "musical ride" on horseback and other ceremonial functions. They are the main police force in most provinces ( Ont. And Quebec not), but have nifty custom design Ford SUV's instead of horses. The Red Serge tunic is worn ceremoniously and for formal occasions only these days, and not for everyday police use. But you still see them in the Red Serge at airports and city halls and sporting events. Amazing how well you driving is when you have one of those SUV's in your rear view mirror.
RCMP headquarters are here in Saskatchewan, in Regina, they still perform the "musical ride" on horseback and other ceremonial functions. They are the main police force in most provinces ( Ont. And Quebec not), but have nifty custom design Ford SUV's instead of horses. The Red Serge tunic is worn ceremoniously and for formal occasions only these days, and not for everyday police use. But you still see them in the Red Serge at airports and city halls and sporting events. Amazing how well your driving is when you have one of those SUV's in your rear view mirror.
Firelock76Byda way, just so da rest of ya know, peeple from New Jerrsee, don't callit "New Joisey," peeple from New Yawk call it dat, peeple from New Jerrsee call it "F*****' New Jersee!"
No one from New Jersey would ever call it 'F'in New Jersey' -- the "New" is never used along with the bomb, c'mon now. And I'm sure you know that in New Jersey it's "capisce?" as Italians know their own.
And the pronunciation varies somewhat with where you're from; Paulie Herman from the Caldwells isn't exactly representative (although he clearly, CLEARLY distinguishes it from Bug's Brooklyn). Thing, is, it's more the way Tom Kean (who had the most pronounced Jersey accent of any real public figure) said it, kind of 'Jeh-zey'
And the accent changes RADICALLY when you come up out of the swamp into Northern New Jersey (which, incidentally, is where Passaic is -- it gets a bad rap, like Piscataway or all the other New Jersey place names in THIS classic Dave Van Romp:
(That's not its right name, of course (it's the Garden State Stomp); I posted this version because the YouTube comments have a listing of all the names involved for your reference)
When you get up into the New York suburbs, or west into horse country, the language isn't down the shore, although it's a bit comical that Englewood and Ridgewood (seventeen miles distant) had to share a Junior League in order to have a critical mass for cotillions. One of Piscopo's greatest comedy lines was about there being upscale people in New Jersey, too, and it just so happens that I know where it came from.
Let me set this up properly: We lived in a house on Lydecker Street that had a 'chauffeur's garage' completely under the house with a steeply-angled gravel incline from it. My father regularly read several papers, which we saved for periodic recycling by slipping them into brown paper shopping bags from Gristede's or the Grand Union, then stacking them up by the firewood in the basement. On the day we expected recycling pickup, we'd put all these bags in a car trunk and transport them up and out to the street to be stacked.
It so happened that one day it had snowed a couple of feet and the driveway hadn't been plowed. This was when the '76 Eldorado was fairly new, and it had front-wheel drive so I was pretty sure I could get it up that part of the driveway with the stuff. It was cold outside, so my mother put on a warm coat, which happened to be fur, to help stack the papers, and out we went. Piscopo came out of the carriage house to see what we were doing, and I explained about the recycling -- he nodded and went back inside. Only later did it transpire that he felt the need to comment in his routine about the fact that he had moved to a ritzy neighborhood -- "How ritzy? I hear you ask? Well, my next door neighbor wears a mink when she takes the garbage to the street in her white Cadillac convertible..." and there wasn't a part of it that wasn't so.
Great stuff there Overmod. Luv that New Jersey State Stomp. I set up 3 of my N Scale modules at a meet in Passaic..I did a lot of listening and nodding those 2 days, just go with the flow. It's too difficult these days to cross the border with all those electronics underneath the modules. Seems the rules change every 3 months ..On both sides coming and going.
FYI the last ever episode of Hell On Wheels is tonight on AMC, they will be at Promotory Point for the ceremonial last spike.
Overmod, you never heard the "New" between "The Bomb" and "Jersey?" I guess it depends on time and place, I heard it both ways. Usually it was attached to a caustic commentary about some legislation coming out of Trenton. You sure heard it in New Jersey gunshops often enough, trust me!
For everyone else, for additional information on New Jersey vernacular refer to the late, lamented George Carlin's "Seven Words You Can't Say On Television." George was a New Yorker, but that bit of his could apply to the whole New York-New Jersey area!
Just so everyone knows, we're not sorry we moved from New Jersey 29 years ago, but there's an awful lot we miss about the place even with all the frustrations of living there. Home's home, even with all the flaws.
Uh, Miningman, it should be Promontory Summit. Don't tell me they got that wrong too? Series climax tonight? What the hell, maybe I'll watch it. Or I might just throw a Herron rail DVD in the player. And you set up some N gauge modules at a meet in Passaic? You may have possibly run into my brother-in-law, Lady Firestorm's brother "Big B," he's a member of Northern New Jersey N-Trak, was the club secretary for a while. Private message me for further information if you're interested.
Firelick76- the word "point" was mine.. Last show, Huntington from the Central Pacific insisted the ceremony be on his railroad, and that the government $,s of 2.5 Million go to the Central Pacifc. This in exchange for ceding Ogden to the UP and Durant. They likely do use the word summit.
I have been through Promontory Point a few times--it is right on the lake, and the Lucin Cutoff passes through it. Sad to say, you will, from time to time, see an article written by someone local, reference to the meeting of the two roads at Promontory Point--which had no rails to it until in the early 20th century.
Johnny
You know, I just remembered a bit of military influence on a 19th Century railroad, but not what you might think.
General Jack Casement, the comstruction boss of the Union Pacific told a story of an Indian attack on one of the contruction camps. Lo and behold the construction workers, nearly to a man all Civil War veterans, Union and Confederate, grabbed rifles, got themselves into platoon and company formations, shouldered arms and moved to the attack in the best infantry style. The old training still stuck with them! Casement said it was one of the most remarkable things he's ever seen.
And you wouldn't think so, but Indians didn't like fighting infantry. The American Plains Indian was probably the best light cavalryman in the world, but even the best cavalry couldn't make a dent in a solid, steady, disciplined infantry formation.
So there's a little more military influence on railroading.
Firelock76- Now that I reside in Northern Saskatchewan I am far far from Passaic NJ. Pre 9/11 you could get a sticker from US and Canadian customs that you affixed to the underside of your modules but not any more. Your brother in law eh? Wow small world, six degrees of separation and all that.
I'm off in an hour on my trek. Will check in from time to time.
Miningman ... Any 'Hell on Wheels" fans among the posters? ...
...
Any 'Hell on Wheels" fans among the posters? ...
Yes, my wife and I were fans and watched all seasons. I generally enjoyed it, but tried not to guffaw when seeing the obviously fake steam locomotives and horribly laid track. What really stuck in my craw was the 'Swede' coming back to life from that catasrophic fall, face up, off the high trestle. I don't care for manipulations that test my suspension of disbelief. The series ended predictably, but incompletely in my view. I think people were getting fidgety and they decided to end the series hastily.
My curiousity was aroused so I tuned into the last episode of "Hell on Wheels."
Turned it off after five minutes, and put Herron Rail Video's "Reflections of the New York Central" into the DVD player and settled in for a comfortable evening.
'Nuff said.
Good Grief, what a Merry Go Round session this has become. On the other hand, pretty Cool (Mining) Man! My early years were spent on my grandparents small farm north of Dallas (the one in Texas) and with no a/c and hot as hell in the summer, I'd watch Sgt. Preston just to keep cool. Not really, it was one good show! Any male Baby Boomer who says he didn't watch Mickey Mouse Club not just to see Annette isn't telling the entire truth! RIP sweetheart, we miss you! How many of you guys kissed the TV screen when she appeared during the Mouseketeer roll call?
I didn't watch many of the Casey Jones episodes but always made sure I got to see the girls as they made their appearance in the open top water tank at the beginning of Petticoat Junction every week. Note: Sierra Railroad steam engine #3 wasn't near as pretty as they were!
Well thanks Trinity...this thread did go off in 20 different directions but it's all good...interesting, reminiscent, trivia, and great stories.
Actually the entire Classic Trains thread has an incredible wealth of information, top notch historical documentation, superb analysis and factual opinions/questions and all without breaking down into a lot of nonsense. That is quite an accomplishment in this day and age.
Miningman Well thanks Trinity...this thread did go off in 20 different directions but it's all good...interesting, reminiscent, trivia, and great stories. Actually the entire Classic Trains thread has an incredible wealth of information, top notch historical documentation, superb analysis and factual opinions/questions and all without breaking down into a lot of nonsense. That is quite an accomplishment in this day and age.
Modesty keeps me from saying we're a cut above the average compared to other "Forum" sites, but who knows, maybe we are?
I've never seen any nastyness here, at least since I've been looking in, sadly I can't say as much for other sites and threads. And if the threads drift, everyone seems to enjoy the ride anyway.
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