Was watching the second to last episode of AMC's Hell on Wheels with the last spike driven in at Ogden and the ceremonial last spike (next week) at Promotory. It was quite the race at the end, mostly fiction, but quite well done. They pretty much have Durant down pat. The lady reporter tells Cullen Bohanon ( based on real person Jack Casement ) later that night, sitting on the front of an engine, while all were celebrating and says to him "History will remember you as the greatest of all railroad men".
So that makes me wonder ...Just who was the greatest of all the railroad men? Now I know there are many categories of greatness and wether they were an empire builder, or a surveyor, or a track gang foreman, but someone, somebody, has got to be #1 overall! Who would be the likely candidate?
Colonel John Stevens, he got the whole thing started back in 1815. His endeavor opened the door to a multitiude of even more greatness and gave us the opportunity to study, learn and disucss railroadings many aspects.
MiningmanSo that makes me wonder ...Just who was the greatest of all the railroad men? Now I know there are many categories of greatness and wether they were an empire builder, or a surveyor, or a track gang foreman, but someone, somebody, has got to be #1 overall! Who would be the likely candidate?
I regret having to slam the door on this fascinating idea, but the "answer" will be hopelessly dependent on specific methodology that has nothing whatsoever to do with the question.
This definitively fits the paradigm of the Arrow Impossibility Theorem, for any sets of assumptions about the subject matter more complex than any given two people looking at this question would make. Not only does that wipe out any 'fairness' in assessing or attempting to 'rank-order' candidates, it wipes out any sort of validity that a subsequent choice of the 'top candidate' from among the rank-ordered alternatives might have.
Hate to bust the bubble early, but it's scientifically proven that it can't be done.
(That's not to say we can't have 'short lists' of the most eminent railroaders in different categories, or even come to some consensus of who takes the palm as "greatest" overall. One emergent problem is that some people -- Louis Menk and William H. Vanderbilt come swiftly to mind -- have a share of popular or even railfan vitriol that does not reflect either their objective opinions or their practical achievements in the railroad industry, and it would only further discord (and perhaps actual "advocacy" to the extent of emergent mutual trolling, although I'd like to think not in this particular community) to bring them up as 'eminent railroaders'.
My suggestion about the one with the overall most meaningful impact on practical railroading is John H. Armstrong, the guy who wrote "The Railroad: What it Is, What it Does" -- and who by the way apparently serves the same function for model railroading that he does for full-scale.
Well I knew I'd get into trouble over this. So a short list then.
NYC Paul Keifer
Tracklayer John Henry
James J. Hill
Lucius Beebe
...David P. Morgan, for bringing us together, ultimately even on this forum...all worthy candidates for the Golden Palm ! There are hundreds of candidates.
The Revolutionary War student in me certainly has me rooting for Colonel John Stevens, and bear in mind that wasn't a phoney title, like "Colonel" Sam Colt or "Colonel" Edwin Drake. John Stevens WAS a colonel in the Continental Army, a regimental commander when still in his twenties, a friend of Washington, and he never lost that commanding drive, which is what made him promote railroads with the same aggressiveness he once applied to chasing Redcoats.
Still, he wasn't around long enough to see what would come of his efforts, but you have to give him credit for looking into the future and seeing what had to be. More than can be said for many of us.
My choice for "Greatest Railroader" would be "Commodore" Vanderbilt. Now this was a steamboat man who didn't care for railroads AT All, was even wrecked on his first train ride, but was savvy enough to see a good business opportunity when it showed itself, and eventually built the colossus known as the New York Central. Takes a very adaptable man to do something like that.
Don't agree? That's OK, it's all subjective anyway.
I do like Miningman's choices. Good picks.
So many great names out there, it's really hard to choose.
At least spell his name right! He deserves that! (But do you really rank him higher than Chapelon? or Woodard? Or Porta? Or one or both of the Stephensons, if looking for 'lasting influence'? And how would you credit the 'committees' at the AMC and N&W motive power who respectively gave us some of the most significant designs -- including the practical version of the locomotive commonly attributed to Woodard -- in steam while denying any 'cult of personality' role (Voyce Glaze being a particular 'unsung hero' in my book...)
John Henry's contribution to railroad history was to die trying. Casey Jones alone is a more meaningful figure if that, or popular fame, is your criterion ... if you want either the right perception of the contribution to railroading, or the heroics of the death. (It's interesting that there don't seem to be any similar 'heroes' in modern railroading, to go with the 30,000 pounds of bananas down Moosic Street guy...) If you are going to go with meaningful railroaders someone like Bob Butterfield, or his earlier counterpart Charley Hogan, would rank higher as a 'public fame' railroad figure than anyone who died memorably.
Lucius Beebe? Surely Whitaker/Frimbo qualifies as more of an actual railroad enthusiast in that category? (And imnsho a much better writer and historian, too!)
DPM deserves credit on a great many levels, not least of which that he built up substantial and deserved cred as a railroad expert from very simple and decidedly non-railroader beginnings. There might be some who would bring up Freeload Cubbard's namesake here. Or, in an older context, Angus Sinclair, who certainly thought he had a major influence on railroads during his tenure in the 'railroad press', and not by thinking he needed to cover 'trains and travel' to keep his anticipated readership at one point.
I agree with you that if you have to have just one name to invoke the best in railroading, Hill is likely to be the 'most significant' on all the necessary levels, although I think Mr. Van Horne on your side of the border might be even more appropriate. These are people who built something up out of very little, against adversity, and then made it work without excessive conniving or sharp dealing. It is relatively less difficult to do great railroading feats, like Rea or Clement at PRR, when you already have the money, credit, and assets to get things done, or to be visionary and not carry things off as well as you wanted due essentially to penury, like Willard and his people at B&O.
And then there are great railroaders who were nuts, like Webb in Britain and the incomparable Leonor F. Loree.
Much of this is hopelessly skewed by events outside of the purview of rational analysis. Some of the great innovations in railroading were stillborn by accident -- due to causes like the Civil War, financial 'panics', even unexpected deaths like the guy at PRR championing internal-combustion locomotives in the 1920s (none of these deaths perhaps more significant in the end than Morgan's railroad specialist, whose name none of you will remember, in the early years of the 20th Century just as his knowledge and wisdom would have become critical).
[N.B. - none of this is intended as 'serious criticism', it's in a spirit of lighthearted play...]
Yes John Henry was a folklore hero and his claim to fame was "dying". He is, however, very popular and was a househould name for some time. The main reason I choose him was simply that he was my representative of the legions of hard labour that actually built the railroads, handled the nitro, drove through mountains ( drilling by hand at that..Ive seen it done, I would be dead in 10 minutes), got up each day with a purpose in mind and got it done. There is no way I could ever discount their contributions to building nations. So I picked one guy. Besides, he had a giant steam turbine named after him, which is quite the honour.
Van Horne..great choice, should have had him right next to Hill. My oversight.
Was hoping this could be something of a fun discussion and certainly had no intention of causing trouble or ruffling feathers.
Well, Casey Jones would have been just another dead engineer on just another wreck if not for a few important things that came together.
Casey was a big-hearted man, friendly to everyone, one who happened to be Wallace Saunders, who as a roundhouse wiper and a black man at that was the "lowest of the low" in the railroad heirachy. Didn't matter to Casey at all, he treated Wallace with the same kindness and courtesy he treated everyone else.
Came the wreck, and a heartbroken Wallace wrote the song that not only memorialized Casey but turned him into an American icon and a symbol for all railroad engineeers.
The moral of the story is, be nice to people, remember the "Golden Rule," because you just never know, do you?
By the way, Casey was a childhood hero of mine, and nothing I've read or learned about him since then has caused me to change my opinion of him. As a matter of fact, I admire him even more.
By the way, anyone remember the "Casey Jones" TV show from 1959 starring Alan Hale Jr.? (Yep, "The Skipper" from "Gilligan's Island.") Totally ficticious, but Hale captured Casey's personality perfectly. You can find it on YouTube if you look for it.
PS: It was a kid's show, a very well done kid's show, but if you look for it and find it forget everthing you know about railroading, and I mean EVERYTHING! Then sit back and enjoy it.
Lucius Beebe? We have to give credit where credit is due. Lucius may have gotten some facts wrong and may have let his wordsmithing get the better of him, but he invented railfanning as we know it today. Maybe someone else might have done it, but Beebe certainly got there first. His unapologetic love of railroading showed through in everything he did, and demonstrated if it was OK for a big-city sophisticate to be ga-ga about trains it was OK for everyone else to be as well.
Great stuff there Firelock76...sure do remember the Casey Jones TV show...came on just before the Mickey Mouse Club in my part of the world. As a kid I just loved that show but it was short lived. It was more of a western than a railroad show but I didn't care..the engineer, his son and the steam locomotive always saved the day. There is a clip of it in the Greatest Railroad Songs thread.
MiningmanThe main reason I choose him was simply that he was my representative of the legions of hard labour that actually built the railroads, handled the nitro, drove through mountains ( drilling by hand at that..Ive seen it done, I would be dead in 10 minutes), got up each day with a purpose in mind and got it done. There is no way I could ever discount their contributions to building nations. So I picked one guy.
I'm tempted to say that what you want isn't a person, it's a song about the class of people. That's not John Henry nearly so much as the middle section of Lightfoot's Canadian Railroad Trilogy. (Which I learned to sing in its entirety courtesy of the music program at my private hoity-toity elementary school, and which I'm proud to remember now, even if it isn't exactly the pro-railroad song I thought it was at age nine...)
There were better heroes on the bridges at Quebec, or among the sandhogs. Not to take anything away from the hard-rock miners!
Besides, he had a giant steam turbine named after him, which is quite the honour.
Except that they spelled his name in the equivalent of Ebonics, which is something of an insult by modern standards (and not even PC standards!) and the giant steam turbine 'laid him down and died' pretty quickly when they worked him hard, too.
I'M certainly having fun. Isn't everybody else?
Thanks Miningman! From what I've read about the "Casey Jones" TV show there were 26 episodes made strictly for syndication distribution to local channels with no plans for any more after the 26 were completed. It never got any major network play, at least not here in the US.
I'm having fun all right! Oh boy, Gordie Lightfoot's "Canadian Railroad Trilogy!" The historian Pierre Berton said Lightfoot said more about the building of the CPR in seven minutes than he (Berton) did in 500 pages. High praise indeed.
Firelock76High praise indeed.
Little more need be said for an epitaph for Van Horne than the lines at the end of the song:
Oh the song of the future has been sungAll the battles have been wonO'er the mountain tops we standAll the world at our commandWe have opened up the soilWith our teardrops and our toil.
But I found that there is a line in the song that they didn't teach us as children. The one at the very end. The one that continues to apply to railroading.
And many are the dead men too silent to be real
True that, "Jawn Henry" is embarrassing with the hindsight of being in 2016 and the big turbine didn't work out in the end. Gordon Lightfoot's railroad trilogy certainly was and still is stunning. Pierre Burton..don't get me started! Just proves my theory you should be extra wary (or weary) of fellows in bow ties. Trust but verify in those cases!
Any 'Hell on Wheels" fans among the posters? A couple of episodes back they zoomed forward to the future, in New York City, with Durant having to pawn his gold ring from Promotory, penniless and alone dying in his chair in his drafty cold apartment.
I've never watched "Hell on Wheels." Probably unfair of me, but when the show debuted there was some commentary on the "Forum" about it that left me cold. Rather than be disappointed I just gave it a miss. Probably unfair of me, but sometimes if there's a particular show on concerning a subject I know about and they get it wrong I find it a total turn-off. Case in point, "Turn," about Washington's spies in the Revolution, and there was another drama about the Revolution I thought was even worse done, I don't even remember the name. What can I say when the Sam Adams character looks like he should be playing in a 21st Century rock band instead of walking the streets of 18th Century Boston?
Just to show I'm fair, and some might consider this blasphemy, but I didn't care for C.B. DeMille's "Union Pacific" either, although C.B.'s attention to period detail was pretty darn good.
Firelock76 The Revolutionary War student in me certainly has me rooting for Colonel John Stevens, and bear in mind that wasn't a phoney title, like "Colonel" Sam Colt or "Colonel" Edwin Drake.
The Revolutionary War student in me certainly has me rooting for Colonel John Stevens, and bear in mind that wasn't a phoney title, like "Colonel" Sam Colt or "Colonel" Edwin Drake.
Either was Col Sanders, Colonel in the day was an inspired honorific title awarded to those to acknowledge achievement, particularly in the South. A tradition no longer exercised to such extent.
As to Sam Adams' appearance, I never watched any of the dramas Firelock mentioned. I have read Kenneth Roberts' novels about the Revolution and the years following, and one of of them (sad to say, I do not remember which one) Sam Adams is presented as having a disreputable appearance in public. I have the impression that Mr. Roberts researched all of the material available before writing his novels.
Johnny
K4sPRR Firelock76 The Revolutionary War student in me certainly has me rooting for Colonel John Stevens, and bear in mind that wasn't a phoney title, like "Colonel" Sam Colt or "Colonel" Edwin Drake. Either was Col Sanders, Colonel in the day was an inspired honorific title awarded to those to acknowledge achievement, particularly in the South. A tradition no longer exercised to such extent.
Deggesty As to Sam Adams' appearance, I never watched any of the dramas Firelock mentioned. I have read Kenneth Roberts' novels about the Revolution and the years following, and one of of them (sad to say, I do not remember which one) Sam Adams is presented as having a disreputable appearance in public. I have the impression that Mr. Roberts researched all of the material available before writing his novels.
Absolutely true, Sam Adams failed at everything he tried except political agitation. He even reveled in his shabby appearence believing it showed him to be a true "Man Of The People."
When he was selected to represent Massachusetts in the Continental Congress his friends and relatives had bankroll his purchases of respectable clothing. Couldn't have him looking disreputable if he was going to mix with the first men of the colonies.
When I mentioned the Sam Adams character looking like a rock band member I wasn't kidding. It was a young actor in his early thirties, wearing what looked like biker leather, had scraggly long hair with a beard (a real no-no in city society in the 18th Century, no matter who you were), as a matter of fact the only thing missing to complete the rock star appearance was a Fender "Telecaster."
Maybe some hot young groupies, but I won't go there.
Oh, I'm well aware of the tradition of Southern governors awarding the title "Colonel" to various individuals, usually an honor given for outstanding achievement in various fields.
The thing is, Sam Colt and Edwin Drake self-awarded themselves the title to give a little cachet to their names and business cards. As far as I know no-one ever called them on it, or at most they may have gotten a wry smile from those in the know.
Excerpt from Hartford Courant, May 14, 2011
http://articles.courant.com/2011-05-14/news/hc-civil-war-sam-colts-uniform-0515-20110514_1_sam-colt-samuel-colt-rampant-colt
In May 1861, Samuel Colt was Hartford's richest, most famous citizen...
A Democrat, Colt had supported the presidential bid of his friend, Stephen Douglas, and while he personally opposed slavery, he was no friend of radical abolition.
But duty called, and after President Lincoln asked for volunteers to put down the rebellion, Colt contacted Connecticut's Republican Gov. William A. Buckingham with an offer to raise, train and equip a full regiment, each man armed with one of Colt's patented revolving rifles.
Colt, then 46, insisted upon leading the regiment himself, having found the pomp and ceremony of weekend military life appealing. He had been appointed a lieutenant colonel in the state militia in 1851 and later established the well-provisioned Colt Armory Guard. Along with other leading Hartford Democrats, he participated in the drills of the Putnam Phalanx, a colonial militia group.
Despite their political differences, Buckingham was in no position to reject Colt's offer of assistance. On May 10, 1861, enlistment began for the First Regiment of Colt's Revolving Rifles of Connecticut. Colt received his regimental commission on May 16 and two days later, companies of the now fully formed regiment bivouacked on the Colt Armory grounds.
It was to be the high-water mark of Colt's military career. A month later, his commission was revoked, the regiment disbanded and the men reassigned...
In forming his regiment, Colt had insisted that recruits be at least 5-foot-7 and that he, alone, retained the authority to promote or demote officers.
His imperious manner quickly alienated some of his men.
The grumbling turned to near revolt when it became clear that Colt intended the regiment to become a full-fledged U.S. Army Infantry unit with a five-year term of enlistment. At that time, 90-day or three-year enlistments were the norm for Connecticut regiments.
Colt had armed his men with .56-caliber, five-shot revolving rifles and saw federal service as a means to prove their effectiveness, guaranteeing future military contracts.
But the gun had its problems. It "was very accurate, but they have been maligned over the years,'' said Herbert G. Houze, a firearms historian, author and curator. "You had to be careful with them. You held a revolving rifle differently than a standard gun.''
When held improperly, the gun's recoil presented a danger to the user. Many of his men wanted nothing to do with them, preferring the Sharps, a competitor.
Tired of all the chaos, Buckingham sacked Colt on June 20, 1861 and had the men reassigned.
https://archive.org/stream/militarycivilhis02crof#page/72/mode/2up
OK, I stand corrected, I should have given Colonel Colt a bit more credit.
Looks like ol' Sam did get a "light" colonels commission in 1851, but mind you that didn't mean he'd REALLY get to lead troops in combat. And it looks like when he tried to in 1861 he came a cropper. No matter. Colt threw himself into the war effort with a vengenance, literally working himself to death in 1862.
Oh, that bit about the troops objecting to the recoil of the Colt's revolving rifle? That's not the half of it. The problem with revolving pistols (and rifles) back in those days before fixed cartidges where each chamber had to be individually loaded was a phenomenon called "chain-firing." What could happen was the flash from one chamber could ignite the powder in the next, and possibly the next,and then the next, until the whole cylinder went off like a Roman candle. The precaution against this was to grease the area of the chamber ahead of the bullet or fill it with candle wax. Most of the time this prevented chain-firing, but if it didn't...
With a pistol it wasn't too bad, all that hellfire was out in front of the gun hand, but if it happened with a revolving rifle you could kiss your left hand goodbye. The only way to safely shoot a revolving rifle was to try and support the gun with the left hand back by the right hand, making for a clumsy and inaccurate hold. So, needless to say revolving rifles weren't too popular with the troops.
There's a good demonstration of a chain-fire in the movie "Gettysburg," Jeff Daniels (as Colonel Chamberlain) fires his revolver and the whole cylinder erupts in flame, which shows me the actor was using a real Colt type Civil War revolver, not one reworked by a Hollywood gunsmith to fire fixed cartridge blanks!
Miningman #1 overall!
#1 overall!
Wanswheel-Thanks, ..terrific!
Miningmanust proves my theory you should be extra wary (or weary) of fellows in bow ties.
Why did I never see this! You are so right.
Does this also apply, by the way, to 'Colonel' Sanders..."
As to tying a bow tie, I do nothing fancy--usually, when I am asked about tying one, I simply say," It's the same as tying your shoes, only with a little more care." I am times to tempted to say--because of the asker's attitude, "Can you tie your shoes?"
A son of my college president once said, of his father's efforts--It looks like a windmill."
Greatest of all railroad men? Come on guys, your missing the most important. George Stephenson (Stevenson?).
He made the common-carrier railroad practical. He designed steam locomotives that actually worked and could haul freight and passengers. He surveryed and supervised the construction of the pioneering World and British railroads. He was a charitable and kind person, who treated competitors, like Brunel, with dignity and friendship. He gave attention to detail, traveling on horseback countless times over the routes he built to insure construction proceeded properly. And his work endures to this day.
This does not mean that I do not appreciate the very special and fine qualities of all the men discussed before. Does the fact that there are no women mean anything?
For a woman, I would nominate someone recent, Sam Pinsley's daughter, the late President of the Short Line Railroad Association.
daveklepper ... Stephenson
Mentioned him ... them ... already, albeit in passing. I love Smiles as much as anyone, but George's son Robert probably had more practical influence on railroading, if you have to have 'just one'.
For a woman, I would nominate someone recent, Sam Pinsly's daughter [Dave, note the spelling], the late President of the Short Line Railroad Association.
On this forum, I'd nominate Fanny Kemble, one of the first of the actual railfans (as opposed to the old Railroad Magazine 'railfanettes'...)
Not to take anything away from Margelit bat Shmuel, at all, ever.
And what about Olive Dennis? Or, come to think of it, Henrietta Howland Robinson Green?
Here's a kind of homage to the American girl in railroading:
Yea, old Freeman Hubbard and his railfanettes ..I loved their detailed roster listings, long before any internet or easy to obtain information.
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