Chicago has been quick cycling greens for years ever since a schoolbus was hit by a Metra train. As soon as the train crossing lights start the parallel road immediately cycles to yellow for a few seconds and then red and the stuck traffic gets a green. The green occurs about the same time as the gates go down. That gives a good 15 seconds for the crossing to clear. Florida could do the same but they don't.
Most of the people who drive over that crossing are familiar with how fast the Coaster and Amtrak trains go and are smart enough to not stop on the crossing. The lights on either side of the crossing are sync'ed such that the light before the crossing will not turn green until the light at the far side of the crossing is ready to turn green. Conversely, the lights on the near side of the crossing turn red before the lights on the far side turn red.
My recollection was that the lights were not sync'ed before the new crossing was installed.
Erik_MagOne concerned that I had about the plan was whether the traffic lights would be sync'ed with the crossing gates. I was pleasnatly surprised to see that the traffic lights have indeed been sync'ed with the crossing - i.e. the lights stay green for a short while after the gates go down.
What if you're sitting at a red light when the crossing lights and gates are activated? How much time do you have for the cycle of lights to stop cross traffic and give you a green light before a fast train gets there?
This is interesting, and I would hope the crossings for Brightline would be able to do something like this, also.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
When the Surf Line was double-tracked between Cardiff and Solana Beach, the Chesterfield grade crossing was converted into a four quadrant quiet zone. One concerned that I had about the plan was whether the traffic lights would be sync'ed with the crossing gates. I was pleasnatly surprised to see that the traffic lights have indeed been sync'ed with the crossing - i.e. the lights stay green for a short while after the gates go down.
OvermodThe problem with 'trapping' people inside four-quadrant gates is of very great antiquity: it would not be a problem if people were made to "not block the box" (to use the New York City convention) at any time they can't actually proceed through.
Reading through your solutions, I still don't see any that would stop the problem. She was stopped at a red light. The cross traffic light would have to cycle through the yellow light and then finally turn the light red for the cross traffic before she could pull out.
By that time, with the speed of a fast passenger train, it would be too late.
Even if someone has the presence of mind to see the red light, realize they're sitting on tracks, realize a fast train is coming, and decide how to get out of the situation with cross traffic driving by at a fast speed, it seems like a very difficult problem to fix.
Add to that this was a new car, probably with windows closed, radio on, she maybe didn't hear the train or the crossing bells, and if she's looking at her phone she would not have seen the crossing lights flash.
Maybe it was simply panic. Realizing what was happening, she possibly couldn't think of how to get out of the situation before the fast moving train was upon her.
Edit: Now that I read the above, what about a red light installed a ways before the tracks, and timed to turn red seconds before the other light turned red? This might at least stop someone from getting trapped on the tracks when the light is turning red.
Here you go, use the Police Department to assist the Signal Department.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LyLOT68Z9Yo
The problem with 'trapping' people inside four-quadrant gates is of very great antiquity: it would not be a problem if people were made to "not block the box" (to use the New York City convention) at any time they can't actually proceed through.
Coordinating the traffic lights was (decades ago) possible using the protocols emergency vehicles use to 'force' directional green through intersections. Note that this works independently of the actuation time from the crossing equipment fed directly into the traffic-light cycle, which seems to be a common issue in those crossings that have inadequate 'green time' to clear.
The initial "solution" to trapping was the timing of the gates so that the 'exit' on each side closed later or more slowly than the entrance. Unsurprisingly this led quickly to drivers whizzing up the wrong side and doglegging through 'before the other gates closed'. Now, where this delay also starts to become a problem is extension of the crossing warning time required from the railroad side: you have to wait xx seconds after the lights come on to start soft-closing the entrance-side gates, then wait a further interval after they are fully down to soft-close the exit gates. It should be obvious to the would-be Buckies on this list that if you were to issue a stop-train warning when someone on the crossing fouls that exit-gate closing, you have to add the full reaction time and emergency-braking time to the aforementioned delays -- which would be insufferable to anyone having to wait for the crossing delay, let alone the PTC-optimizing saunter time as the train takes its sweet time approaching and going across.
The "fix for the fix" was to start building curbs and barriers across the intersection, so that crime would not pay. The issue there is that you have to extend the barrier into the clearance areas of the track -- the full width of the loading gage plus some additional -- and that further encourages both silly bravado and the disaster when some idiot comes roaring up the wrong way only to find he can't get over once he's fouling the crossing.
Washington DC is full of the other, other alternative (which you can see in some Russian YouTube videos): counterbalanced flaps that quickly open to block the road up to 3-4' height with enormous mass of concrete and steel. Problem number one for these is weather, particularly what happens if you try plowing across one; problem number two is false activation with traffic blithely approaching the crossing. It was funny watching those hydraulically-activated vertical bollards getting people: watching drivers collide with a sudden barrier far less amusing.
The English had an interesting approach to private crossings a few years ago. The 'default' was a locked gate across the road, which could be remotely unlocked from a signalman's position "somewhere". If someone came up to the crossing, he would press a button on an intercom or pick up a phone and call for permission -- which of course would be granted only when the signalman could slow or stop any approaching traffic conveniently, and certainly refused until any traffic either side in that block had successfully cleared. The gate would then be swung across the track -- putting all signals to 'danger' in the process -- until manually closed and engaged by the person doing the crossing.
Some simpler version of this, with a gate structure strong enough to at least deflect a vehicle mistakenly approaching the crossing, might be tried. It wouldn't have helped the recent collision on the ex-Santa Fe, because there was relatively frequent heavy truck traffic for a very limited time. In that case a gate system would have to be opened for some 'window' of time, with the vehicle traffic scheduled (using GPS or Stratum 1 time to 'avoid little misunderstandings') to be completed during the interval, and the gate closed and locked by the last one through (with appropriate penalties, etc. if they dropped the ball doing it).
Frankly this does little objectively more than an enforced stop sign with those blinking solar LEDs, which turn red or pattern-flash when a train is "known" to be approaching, complete with a suitable suite of remote, recording cameras. Which doesn't stop the high-centering, lapse-of-judgment, people running into the sides of trains, turning-onto-the-track-Ashland-style sorts of problems, but doesn't require enormous amounts of regrading, road diversion so that 'straight' paths encounter heavy barriers, etc.
rdamonShouldn't the traffic lights go green to clear the crossing? Also, don't the crossing signlas have an occupancy sensor to keep the 'exit' gates open?
This was my question also.
Sometimes a person stops at a crossing and then pulls out, and for some reason doesn't see the train. Sometimes a person drives around crossing gates. Sometimes, for whatever reason, a person hits the side of a train that is already on the crossing.
However, this kind bothers me the most.
She pulled up to a red light and stopped. Then the crossing signals activated, with her car sitting at the red light with a train approaching.
Maybe she was at the red light and started to look at her phone. Maybe she was thinking about work as she stared at the red light. What else ...?
I'm not an expert, so I have no solution, but this type of crossing seems to really need some other system.
Another terrible story.
rdamon"when the traffic signal at the intersection cycled to red and she stopped her SUV beyond the stop bar on the railroad tracks. According to investigators, as the train approached the grade crossing, the safety lights, bells and gates were activated. For unknown reasons, Ordonez remained on the tracks, said detectives. The train engineer observed the vehicle and applied the emergency brakes upon approaching the grade crossing." Shouldn't the traffic lights go green to clear the crossing? Also, don't the crossing signlas have an occupancy sensor to keep the 'exit' gates open?
According to investigators, as the train approached the grade crossing, the safety lights, bells and gates were activated.
For unknown reasons, Ordonez remained on the tracks, said detectives. The train engineer observed the vehicle and applied the emergency brakes upon approaching the grade crossing."
Shouldn't the traffic lights go green to clear the crossing? Also, don't the crossing signlas have an occupancy sensor to keep the 'exit' gates open?
Suicide by train?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
"when the traffic signal at the intersection cycled to red and she stopped her SUV beyond the stop bar on the railroad tracks.
blue streak 1 another one! Deputies ID woman killed after Brightline collision in Pompano Beach (local10.com)
another one!
Deputies ID woman killed after Brightline collision in Pompano Beach (local10.com)
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
blue streak 1Vehicle strike. Some sources say this vehicle ran into side of train?
Yes, in one of the crashes, a car was stopped at the crossing with the crossbuck lights flashing and the crossing gates being down. An SUV drives around the stopped car, and drives into the rear of the lead engine of the train.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XIKAhzfX9c
Note the heading is "Brightline Slams into SUV", when really the opposite occured....
This has happened here in the UK when a guy fell asleep at the wheel of his pick-up and ran off the road onto the main York to London rail line. Hit by a 100mph train killing several people, not himself though!
CMStPnPHowever, it is very true that most businesses tend to overstate items on a business plan or business submission in order to get better financing.
The problem with that approach is that you are burning your bridges for the future when you need more financing or desire to see the stock price rise so that top executives can cash in on their stock options.
zugmannI've watched many of the Brightline reveiw videos on youtube. And the recurring theme in most of them is "Is Brightline worth the cost?"
D.Carleton charlie hebdo Blomberg reports Brightline revised 2024 ridership numbers down 21% from previous estimate. To be fair it sounds like what happened when service started in 2018; the initial projections were so far off one wondered if the were meant to be taken seriously. They had to find their "mojo," that is, solve the first/last-mile issue for the ticket holders. For the downtown stations in SoFlo that meant a fleet of yellow Teslas, vans, bicycles and golf carts. MCO offers a bit more of a challenge. I know what I'd do but it's not my problem anymore.
charlie hebdo Blomberg reports Brightline revised 2024 ridership numbers down 21% from previous estimate.
To be fair it sounds like what happened when service started in 2018; the initial projections were so far off one wondered if the were meant to be taken seriously. They had to find their "mojo," that is, solve the first/last-mile issue for the ticket holders. For the downtown stations in SoFlo that meant a fleet of yellow Teslas, vans, bicycles and golf carts. MCO offers a bit more of a challenge. I know what I'd do but it's not my problem anymore.
I've watched many of the Brightline reveiw videos on youtube. And the recurring theme in most of them is "Is Brightline worth the cost?"
Even if people aren't totally budget-minded, after watching a few videos that harp on that question, you may think about the ticket costs a bit more. Esp. if you are travelling with more than 1 or 2 people, or want to go premium class (unless you drink a lot of the provided Pepsis?)
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
CMStPnP The old story they used at UW was the Oil Company that pumped water into their tanks in the old days to raise the oil level in the storage tank knowing that oil floats on water and that the auditor might not dip their stick in all the way to the bottom of the tank to get a reading on how much oil was in the tank.
The old story they used at UW was the Oil Company that pumped water into their tanks in the old days to raise the oil level in the storage tank knowing that oil floats on water and that the auditor might not dip their stick in all the way to the bottom of the tank to get a reading on how much oil was in the tank.
That sounds like what Tino DiAngelis and the Allied Crude Vegetable Oil Refining Company pulled in the late 1950's.
D.Carletonthe initial projections were so far off one wondered if the were meant to be taken seriously
Hate to say this because a small few will view it as political due to recent events.
However, it is very true that most businesses tend to overstate items on a business plan or business submission in order to get better financing. Now the legal question is actually how much overstatement is too much or is viewed as completely obnoxious and how much overstatement is just based on an optimistic view. I think I know what that % should be for Real Estate but I have no clue for future ridership stats on a passenger train.
I think Amtrak regularly takes this approach too. Looking at the TCMC train that will start up across Wisconsin in 2024. I don't for a minute think 125,000 riders a year is going to be achieved near startup. I think WisDOT and Amtrak estimated that number and the estimation was probably not conservative because both organizations wanted funding for the train.
BTW, I might also add in support of this and it was part of Intermediate Accounting course in college. Common business practice to shift inventories at year end to make earnings or revenues look better. The fact this is part of GAAP teaching is interesting. The old story they used at UW was the Oil Company that pumped water into their tanks in the old days to raise the oil level in the storage tank knowing that oil floats on water and that the auditor might not dip their stick in all the way to the bottom of the tank to get a reading on how much oil was in the tank.
charlie hebdoBlomberg reports Brightline revised 2024 ridership numbers down 21% from previous estimate.
Blomberg reports Brightline revised 2024 ridership numbers down 21% from previous estimate.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-26/brightline-florida-s-high-speed-railroad-slashes-2024-ridership-forecast?fbclid=IwAR12QjZLnrIDysFUBaSMxicbztGOMzdl0jNxzGeahwYzjnBuUr5645DTsCE
JL ChicagoAnd my guess is that these middle aged folks always drove around gates. But now that they're middle aged their reflexes and judgments are no longer split second. So they get hit Reminds me if a story my mom told me. Ever since she was a little girl one neighbor would jump off the slowly moving train rather than wait to the station and walk back. This was in the era of end platforms on trains. Anyhow as he aged he still continued to jump off when one time he misjudged and somehow got caught under the train and was grisly killed.
Reminds me if a story my mom told me. Ever since she was a little girl one neighbor would jump off the slowly moving train rather than wait to the station and walk back. This was in the era of end platforms on trains. Anyhow as he aged he still continued to jump off when one time he misjudged and somehow got caught under the train and was grisly killed.
What I find the most interesting of this thread is the thread title. "Brightline collisions with vehicles" instead of "Vehicle collisions with Brightline". Anyone else analyze it that way with the title? .........then think about it?
D.Carleton And my guess is that these middle aged folks always drove around gates. But now that they're middle aged their reflexes and judgments are no longer split second. So they get hit Reminds me if a story my mom told me. Ever since she was a little girl one neighbor would jump off the slowly moving train rather than wait to the station and walk back. This was in the era of end platforms on trains. Anyhow as he aged he still continued to jump off when one time he misjudged and somehow got caught under the train and was grisly killed. York1 Not sure if there's any info on the ages of the drivers who have been hit by Brightline trains, but I'd risk betting a good amount of money that older people are a small minority of the ones driving around gates. This is by no means scientific nor exhaustive; when I was compiling post-accident reports in SoFlo it involved the mechanical relevancies: MP, consist, lead locomotive, inspection of brakes, headlights, windshield, etc. This was handed to the railroad and they dealt with the particulars. But correlating the incident with what was reported in the media the vast majority of last time drivers showed they were above 40 years of age and usually between 45-60. These were neither young kids nor seniors. Rather, most are "middle aged" and certainly knew better.
And my guess is that these middle aged folks always drove around gates. But now that they're middle aged their reflexes and judgments are no longer split second. So they get hit
York1 Not sure if there's any info on the ages of the drivers who have been hit by Brightline trains, but I'd risk betting a good amount of money that older people are a small minority of the ones driving around gates.
This is by no means scientific nor exhaustive; when I was compiling post-accident reports in SoFlo it involved the mechanical relevancies: MP, consist, lead locomotive, inspection of brakes, headlights, windshield, etc. This was handed to the railroad and they dealt with the particulars. But correlating the incident with what was reported in the media the vast majority of last time drivers showed they were above 40 years of age and usually between 45-60. These were neither young kids nor seniors. Rather, most are "middle aged" and certainly knew better.
There are no orders for "trainsets" although the press at large couldn't likely define one. Twenty more coaches were on order last time I checked, ten for this year and the balance for next year filling out the ten sets to six cars. I have not ridden the extension yet but the unofficial intel I've received is the trains north of WPB are running half full. That is leaps and bounds ahead of where service started in 2018 when the trains were practically empty. Paradigm shifts take a while and Brightline seems to be ahead of the curve.
charlie hebdocharlie hebdo wrote the following post 21 minutes ago: "In spite of rising ridership and revenue, Miami-based private train service Brightline still finished hundreds of million of dollars in the red in the first nine months of 2023. "According to Brightline's latest quarterly unaudited financial statement report released Dec. 29, Brightline posted a net and comprehensive loss of $192.2 million between Jan. 1 and Sept. 30."
Not surprised and their business plan from the start said they would not achieve profitability until after Orlando had opened. Not sure when after Orlando opened was their target for profitability but they still have not broken with their original business plan yet. Also, they should get credit for the pandemic, that would have shutdown any transportation company that was weakly financed but Brightline is still operating. Interestingly I heard they placed another order for additional Siemens trainsets. Not sure what those are for? Tampa or more frequencies?
Noticed TriRail is using Miami Central station downtown now.
"In spite of rising ridership and revenue, Miami-based private train service Brightline still finished hundreds of million of dollars in the red in the first nine months of 2023.
"According to Brightline's latest quarterly unaudited financial statement report released Dec. 29, Brightline posted a net and comprehensive loss of $192.2 million between Jan. 1 and Sept. 30."
D.Carleton York1 Not sure if there's any info on the ages of the drivers who have been hit by Brightline trains, but I'd risk betting a good amount of money that older people are a small minority of the ones driving around gates. This is by no means scientific nor exhaustive; when I was compiling post-accident reports in SoFlo it involved the mechanical relevancies: MP, consist, lead locomotive, inspection of brakes, headlights, windshield, etc. This was handed to the railroad and they dealt with the particulars. But correlating the incident with what was reported in the media the vast majority of last time drivers showed they were above 40 years of age and usually between 45-60. These were neither young kids nor seniors. Rather, most are "middle aged" and certainly knew better.
I guess from my point of reference, being in my 70s, I don't consider 45 to 60-year-olds 'older'. I'm sure my daughters would think the opposite.
York1Not sure if there's any info on the ages of the drivers who have been hit by Brightline trains, but I'd risk betting a good amount of money that older people are a small minority of the ones driving around gates.
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