Overmod matthewsaggie I have often thought that the second gate should have a clear sign saying something to the effect, "Breakaway gate, if trapped drive through it". Better yet, perhaps, some variant of 'hinged gate, no fine if you drive through'. The back of the gate could be brightly painted with instructions where to 'contact' it with a vehicle to get far enough off the tracks. Non-punitive alert if the hinge is actuated. Is there any current notification with these hinged gates, or is their action just 'passive'? Note that the hinge would need to lock at any time the gate is being raised or lowered (a simple sliding gravity lock backed by a spring might work) to prevent wind deflection. The amount of force to 'open the hinge' might need to be more than a pedestrian could exert... An advantage of hinged over breakaway is that the gate protection remains effective for subsequent crossings without required MOW attention.
matthewsaggie I have often thought that the second gate should have a clear sign saying something to the effect, "Breakaway gate, if trapped drive through it".
Better yet, perhaps, some variant of 'hinged gate, no fine if you drive through'. The back of the gate could be brightly painted with instructions where to 'contact' it with a vehicle to get far enough off the tracks.
Non-punitive alert if the hinge is actuated. Is there any current notification with these hinged gates, or is their action just 'passive'?
Note that the hinge would need to lock at any time the gate is being raised or lowered (a simple sliding gravity lock backed by a spring might work) to prevent wind deflection. The amount of force to 'open the hinge' might need to be more than a pedestrian could exert...
An advantage of hinged over breakaway is that the gate protection remains effective for subsequent crossings without required MOW attention.
I think all modern gates are hinged. I know all of the crossing gates along our main line are hinged. A month or so back when we were experiencing a day of very high winds, we had many crossing notices of crossing devices not working properly. It was because of the winds on the gates. Some had been blown off center that they were hung up on the various items attached to the signal pole, such as the large "wig/wag" flashing lights and couldn't drop. One gate was blown off center when it was down enough that it fouled the tracks and a train broke it off. I came close a couple of times to breaking one off myself.
Jeff
jeffhergert The gates at the IA 17 crossing don't all come down at once. First, the gates on the entrance side of the crossing come down. When they are about halfway down, the exit side gates come down. That should lessen the chance of someone getting trapped.
The gates at the IA 17 crossing don't all come down at once. First, the gates on the entrance side of the crossing come down. When they are about halfway down, the exit side gates come down. That should lessen the chance of someone getting trapped.
Early installations of automatic four-quad gates used this approach - know as "exit gate timing" - exclusively. It leads to its own problems. People who want to drive around the gates sometimes are induced to do so in a recklessly fast manner in order to beat the exit gate.
For well over a decade now, the preferred approach has been to use a vehicle detection system to see if any vehicles are in the crossing when the signals activate. The entrance gates descend at the normal time, but the exist gates stay up until the crossing is clear. In the "normal" case, where there aren't any cars on the crossing, both the entrance gates and the exit gates descend simultaneously.
Traditionally, this vehicle detection has been accomplished using inductor loops in the pavement. Some newer installations use radar.
The interesting thing about exit gates is that, unlike most railroad signaling equipment, there isn't really a safe failure mode. If they descend when they shouldn't, they could trap a vehicle. If they don't descend when they should, then cars might drive around the entrance gates.
When the vehicle detection system fails, the most common behavior is to fall back to exit gate timing. In at least one state, the regulators do not allow exit gate timing at all, so a failure in the VDS will prevent the exit gates from descending at all.
Looking at IA-17 in Boone and reading the FRA accident history, I would guess that the 4-quad gates were installed to stop people making left-hand turns at the nearby intersections from accidentally driving past the tip of the gate and running into the side of a train. (There were three "train struck by vehicle" accidents between 1996-2000.)
Dan
Seems like a sensible, modest way to reduce fatalities.
matthewsaggieI have often thought that the second gate should have a clear sign saying something to the effect, "Breakaway gate, if trapped drive through it".
I have often thought that the second gate should have a clear sign saying something to the effect, "Breakaway gate, if trapped drive through it".
jeffhergert charlie hebdo You and others feel a need to disparage these victims. Why? In the US, we used to have four-quadrant gated crossings same as Europe. I can remember them. They work. Then to save money, two quadrant systems became the rule. Big mistake. Some Quiet Zones have 4 quadrant gates. IA Hwy 17 east of Boone has 4 quadrant gates, but I don't know why. I do believe they have fallen somewhat out of favor for the reason mentioned. There have been motorists trapped and then struck by the train. Now, the gates are hinged and you can drive through them in such instances, but most people don't know that. The gates at the IA 17 crossing don't all come down at once. First, the gates on the entrance side of the crossing come down. When they are about halfway down, the exit side gates come down. That should lessen the chance of someone getting trapped. Jeff
charlie hebdo You and others feel a need to disparage these victims. Why? In the US, we used to have four-quadrant gated crossings same as Europe. I can remember them. They work. Then to save money, two quadrant systems became the rule. Big mistake.
You and others feel a need to disparage these victims. Why?
In the US, we used to have four-quadrant gated crossings same as Europe. I can remember them. They work. Then to save money, two quadrant systems became the rule. Big mistake.
Some Quiet Zones have 4 quadrant gates. IA Hwy 17 east of Boone has 4 quadrant gates, but I don't know why.
I do believe they have fallen somewhat out of favor for the reason mentioned. There have been motorists trapped and then struck by the train. Now, the gates are hinged and you can drive through them in such instances, but most people don't know that.
Those that get 'trapped' have only themselves to blame! Floor it and scrape the paint on the vehicle or break the gate arm. GTF off the crossing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I stopped at a crossing ofthe busy UP West line today. The gates were down 50 seconds before a short freight went past.
The gates in Germany are steel tubular and go across all lanes of traffic on both sides of the road, they have a chain link part that unfolds as the steel tube decends to catch anything that might slide under the tubular gate (like a motorcyclist or bicyclist) before they foul the tracks. So the American phobia of being trapped between crossing gates can happen in Germany if your not careful but there are other differences....
The German gates were also not last min timing like the American gates are and the gates descend slower than American gates......the gates are down across the road for far longer than the 10-20 seconds American gates are prior to train arrival, usually 45 seconds on average, sometimes longer. Used to be law in the 1980's that you had to turn your engine off if you were stopped longer than 30 seconds.
Most German freight trains are not as slow as Americans are to clear the crossing and they usually fly across pretty quick. Also, much shorter in length, faster to accelerate from a dead stop as well.
If I recall correctly, four-quadrant crossing gates were manually operated. They were replaced with two-quadrant automatic gates in part to save money and in part to save time for motorists. Two-quadrant gates also eliminated the possibility of somebody being trapped on the crossing.
And how many of them are idiots who go around the gates thinking they can beat the train?
243129 Not a good subject for discussion.
Not a good subject for discussion.
Agreed.
Still in training.
BEAUSABRE Because railways in Europe have few, if any, road-rail crossings and the right of way has large barriers to prevent trespassing. You might be able to do the later in a small country (most of Western Europe would fit inside Texas - TEXAS EUROPE SIZE COMPARISON MAP | Texas vs Europe | misco | Flickr), but North America?
Because railways in Europe have few, if any, road-rail crossings and the right of way has large barriers to prevent trespassing. You might be able to do the later in a small country (most of Western Europe would fit inside Texas - TEXAS EUROPE SIZE COMPARISON MAP | Texas vs Europe | misco | Flickr), but North America?
In Europe there are more level crossings than you believe, even in Germany. But they have better gate protection because they believe in protecting people.
But I suppose the 500 deaths of pedestrians plus many more in vehicles are not worth preventing.
zugmann This thread is such a weird flex.
This thread is such a weird flex.
I think it's just flat out morbid.
What questions can be asked that haven't already been asked?
What answers can be given that haven't already been given?
The plain fact of the matter is there have been and always will be some poor souls who think they'll be better off out of this world than in it. As far as help is concerned you can't do any better than to try and meet them half-way.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Another one in Alabama.
Crescent Train 19 which departed New York (NYP) on 5/9 is currently stopped north of Tuscaloosa (TCL) due to a trespasser incident. We will update when more information becomes available.
charlie hebdoThe reported suicide rates are certainly lower than reality. But for pedestrian rail deaths, there is actually a financial incentive for the rails to blame most on suicide rather than upgrade safety measures. You are still part of that apparatus. Or next you will once again roll out some old shibboleth arguing against statistics.
I can't argue numbers, but I'm sure the inclusion of cameras in the engines probably helped determine some instances of accident vs. suicide.
BaltACD charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Trains hitting pedestrians is uncommon in Germany and much of Europe. Closer to home, I wonder about the incidence rate in Canada. Why? What are the suicide rates being reported in German, Europe, Canada vs. the rate in the USA? I will go out on a limb and feature that 98% of the pedestrian/train deaths are Suicide by Train. The other 2% MIGHT be accidental but likely not. US suicide rate 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, German rate 12.9 per 100,000 in 2018. The answer to your speculation concerning deaths of pedestrians hit by trains would be harder to research, but your 98% seems highly exaggerated,not surprisingly. Looking at Volpe Center data and Wiki, it appears the annual average of pedestrian deaths by trains is about 500. Suicides by rail averages about 219. There is a stigma and potential financial loss in reporting a death as a suicide - authorities will jump through any number of hoops and tortuous law interpertations so as to not report a pedestrain/train death as a suicide.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo Trains hitting pedestrians is uncommon in Germany and much of Europe. Closer to home, I wonder about the incidence rate in Canada. Why? What are the suicide rates being reported in German, Europe, Canada vs. the rate in the USA? I will go out on a limb and feature that 98% of the pedestrian/train deaths are Suicide by Train. The other 2% MIGHT be accidental but likely not. US suicide rate 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, German rate 12.9 per 100,000 in 2018. The answer to your speculation concerning deaths of pedestrians hit by trains would be harder to research, but your 98% seems highly exaggerated,not surprisingly. Looking at Volpe Center data and Wiki, it appears the annual average of pedestrian deaths by trains is about 500. Suicides by rail averages about 219.
BaltACD charlie hebdo Trains hitting pedestrians is uncommon in Germany and much of Europe. Closer to home, I wonder about the incidence rate in Canada. Why? What are the suicide rates being reported in German, Europe, Canada vs. the rate in the USA? I will go out on a limb and feature that 98% of the pedestrian/train deaths are Suicide by Train. The other 2% MIGHT be accidental but likely not.
charlie hebdo Trains hitting pedestrians is uncommon in Germany and much of Europe. Closer to home, I wonder about the incidence rate in Canada. Why?
What are the suicide rates being reported in German, Europe, Canada vs. the rate in the USA?
I will go out on a limb and feature that 98% of the pedestrian/train deaths are Suicide by Train. The other 2% MIGHT be accidental but likely not.
US suicide rate 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018,
German rate 12.9 per 100,000 in 2018.
The answer to your speculation concerning deaths of pedestrians hit by trains would be harder to research, but your 98% seems highly exaggerated,not surprisingly.
Looking at Volpe Center data and Wiki, it appears the annual average of pedestrian deaths by trains is about 500. Suicides by rail averages about 219.
There is a stigma and potential financial loss in reporting a death as a suicide - authorities will jump through any number of hoops and tortuous law interpertations so as to not report a pedestrain/train death as a suicide.
The reported suicide rates are certainly lower than reality. But for pedestrian rail deaths, there is actually a financial incentive for the rails to blame most on suicide rather than upgrade safety measures. You are still part of that apparatus. Or next you will once again roll out some old shibboleth arguing against statistics.
zugmann I don't think this forum has enough pull to get attention for anything.
I don't think this forum has enough pull to get attention for anything.
OLI "Trespasser" Issue thread?
charlie hebdoTrains hitting pedestrians is uncommon in Germany and much of Europe. Closer to home, I wonder about the incidence rate in Canada. Why?
blue streak 1 Here is the latest on Downeaster. Maybe getting enough publicity about tresspassers might get attention from Pols Two people killed on railroad tracks in Biddeford - Portland Press Herald
Here is the latest on Downeaster. Maybe getting enough publicity about tresspassers might get attention from Pols
Two people killed on railroad tracks in Biddeford - Portland Press Herald
That last incident in Biddeford ME sounds like a suicide pact. Just HOW does anyone stop that? What can be done that hasn't been done already? What counseling services can be provided that aren't already available?
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