Paul MilenkovicCan one defend the assertion that US engineers consider failure modes that European engineers disregard after the 737 Max debacle?
The only American stab at practical HSR can only run to 150mph, and is colossally overweight even there, with the usual kinds of issue that come with Flying Pig mass (cracked yaw dampers, disintegrating disc-brake webs). The Europeans long ago went to designing trains to be more like aircraft, deciding to reduce the risk of accidents with better CEM and better operations; one reason I noted the Eischeide accident as an 'unfair' comparison is that it involved collision and collapse of a (non-CEM-optimized) bridge; we might as well look at the car that hit the cat bridge in Bostian's wreck (fat lot of good the nominal 850K buff compliance did there!) or the car that buckled in the middle at Cayce.
Any true HSR even at original 186mph speed is unlikely to meet the old RPO standard... and would require a waiver... and could be expected to use CEM to manage passenger survival at the expense, and it's a humongous expense, of even slight damage 'totaling' the train's equipment. Those European governments have the access to funds and the political will to build equipment that way, and to run it at the speeds designed.
While the Amtrak attempt to revitalize the old NH Mack railbus idea with 100mph Leyland 'failed to thrive' I can't help but wonder if it's moral successor four decades later might have promise where things like Colorado Railcar DMU failed.
https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/first-revolution-vlr-vehicle-for-britain-ready-for-testing/
Note the implicit suitability for hydrogen fuel-cell operation. Increasing the shell size to take advantages of American clearances would not be major, especially if wound-fiber construction to make the shells were used...
Major CEM in the noses likely expected for American practice. Interesting to see how good (or otherwise) they can get the car to ride on various routes with various sorts of track quality.
CMStPnP ronrunner N EUROPE THE RAILWAYS ARE OWNED BY THE STATE AND PAYDED FOR BY CONFISCOTOTORY HIGH TAX RATES BY SOCIALIST REGIEMES THAT PROVIDE CRADLE TO GRAVE BENIFITS IN EXCHANGE FOR THRRE CITIZENS FREEDOM TO SUCEED AND FAIL UNLIKE USA In part I do think this is why the attention or focus to preserving human life in a crash is missing. The other part of course is a healthy dose of arrogance in that they do not engineer towards failure like the United States does because they do not believe they should. Remember the fly by wire Airbus's that crashed due to lack of redundant or backup systems. See this again and again with European designs even more so among the poorer European countries.
ronrunner N EUROPE THE RAILWAYS ARE OWNED BY THE STATE AND PAYDED FOR BY CONFISCOTOTORY HIGH TAX RATES BY SOCIALIST REGIEMES THAT PROVIDE CRADLE TO GRAVE BENIFITS IN EXCHANGE FOR THRRE CITIZENS FREEDOM TO SUCEED AND FAIL UNLIKE USA
In part I do think this is why the attention or focus to preserving human life in a crash is missing. The other part of course is a healthy dose of arrogance in that they do not engineer towards failure like the United States does because they do not believe they should. Remember the fly by wire Airbus's that crashed due to lack of redundant or backup systems. See this again and again with European designs even more so among the poorer European countries.
Even human factors can combine with non-electronic purely mechanical 19th century technology such as the the failure to set enough hand brakes and follow the procedure to test them resulting in a fatal accident.
Yes, the Airbus is fly-by-wire, no, it indeed has redundancy and backups, yes, there are human-factor considerations on its safe use. Do you have an accident in mind -- each one is different?
Can one defend the assertion that US engineers consider failure modes that European engineers disregard after the 737 Max debacle?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
charlie hebdo CMStPnP ronrunner N EUROPE THE RAILWAYS ARE OWNED BY THE STATE AND PAYDED FOR BY CONFISCOTOTORY HIGH TAX RATES BY SOCIALIST REGIEMES THAT PROVIDE CRADLE TO GRAVE BENIFITS IN EXCHANGE FOR THRRE CITIZENS FREEDOM TO SUCEED AND FAIL UNLIKE USA In part I do think this is why the attention or focus to preserving human life in a crash is missing. The other part of course is a healthy dose of arrogance in that they do not engineer towards failure like the United States does because they do not believe they should. Remember the fly by wire Airbus's that crashed due to lack of redundant or backup systems. See this again and again with European designs even more so among the poorer European countries. Perhaps because they have far, far fewer derailments for the much greater number of trains in just France, Germany and Benelux than we do. Given your attitude about non-American equipment, I guess you won't be riding the Japanese Texas HSR?
Perhaps because they have far, far fewer derailments for the much greater number of trains in just France, Germany and Benelux than we do.
Given your attitude about non-American equipment, I guess you won't be riding the Japanese Texas HSR?
Whenever we use any form of transportation we are placing a bet that we will get to our intended destination without incident.
As we get older - walking even becomes one of the suspect means of transportation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OvermodWould a train composed of the equipment at Eischeide have fared better if subjected to the specific forces of derailment with a heavy tail locomotive? And note why that is itself an unfair "comparison...
The ICE Train at Eischeide I believe was designed for a dedicated ROW seperate from Freight trains at those higher speeds, pretty sure it would never have been given a waiver to run on BNSF rails. So thats a pretty bad comparison. It was also traveling at a speed much higher than the Cascades train at the point of initial impact.
But case in point, since you brought that crash up.... look at the fixed objects close into that HSR ROW in Germany where that specific crash occurred..........anything jump out at you from those pictures. Say perhaps the pillars of concrete the train slammed into? Notice anything missing around the base? Because of course.........passenger trains are not supposed to derail at high speed, so why bother with a concrete guard around the concrete pillar bridge supports. Whoops.
ronrunnerN EUROPE THE RAILWAYS ARE OWNED BY THE STATE AND PAYDED FOR BY CONFISCOTOTORY HIGH TAX RATES BY SOCIALIST REGIEMES THAT PROVIDE CRADLE TO GRAVE BENIFITS IN EXCHANGE FOR THRRE CITIZENS FREEDOM TO SUCEED AND FAIL UNLIKE USA
CMStPnP Can't explain how a passenger got hit in the head with a wheelset though. Never heard of such things with Budd built cars or Pullmans. Ever hear of passenger getting ejected from those or being hit in the head with the wheelsets? Not anytime recently.
I'm going to guess usually grisly details like that aren't released publicly in respect to the victims' families?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I doubt if cars made 50-70 years ago by Pullman, Budd or St. Louis would have fared significantly better in terms of passenger protection at DuPont.
IN EUROPE THE RAILWAYS ARE OWNED BY THE STATE AND PAYDED FOR BY CONFISCOTOTORY HIGH TAX RATES BY SOCIALIST REGIEMES THAT PROVIDE CRADLE TO GRAVE BENIFITS IN EXCHANGE FOR THRRE CITIZENS FREEDOM TO SUCEED AND FAIL UNLIKE USA
CMStPnPOh and what manufacturer needed a waiver from the FRA to run their equipment in the United States? Nobody discussing that....huh?
What locomotive manufacturer failed EPA Tier 4 final by 0.3% over something like 3% of the test cycle, and was kept from selling domestic locomotives at least the better part of a year... not receiving a waiver.
Personally I think any reasonably designed true HSR equipment would have 'come apart' much as the TALGO set did when exposed to the specific forces in the Dupont wreck. I have no interest in spinning that to the sole apparent detriment of a particular manufacturer. Would a train composed of the equipment at Eischeide have fared better if subjected to the specific forces of derailment with a heavy tail locomotive? And note why that is itself an unfair "comparison...
It was mentioned by the very same posters in this thread prior to the crash that the Talgo was safe and there was nothing to say otherwise. I specifically remember bringing up crash worthiness as it has always been an issue with European transportation vehicles (cars, trucks, trainsets, etc). Most especially with countries that not long ago were considered 2nd world (Spain). Basically the discussion prior to the crash. Now after the crash.....well......
Here we go again.
Hence railfans are not the best at judgement when it comes to rail transportation.
It's kind of ironic because some of the folks in other discussion forums attribute the passenger ejections from the crashed train as "railfans riding in the vestibules" (rather humorous but indicative of what they think of railfans). Can't explain how a passenger got hit in the head with a wheelset though. Never heard of such things with Budd built cars or Pullmans. Ever hear of passenger getting ejected from those or being hit in the head with the wheelsets? Not anytime recently.
Bigotry or looking at the issue objectively without foam.....heh, I think the latter.
Oh and what manufacturer needed a waiver from the FRA to run their equipment in the United States? Nobody discussing that....huh?
Someone save me the time and list exactly what the CEM and other crash improvements are in the TALGO 8s over the 6 series.
Then use the crash parameters from the Dupont wreck to see if 'improved' would have been good enough. (Honestly -- no anti-TALGO bigots need comment)
Observable facts (Paul M) versus speculations (others).
...
CMStPnPWhich of course Amtrak refers to as "temporary" replacements. To me that says a conversation has already taken place between Amtrak and DOT officials on what the future will be equipment wise on this corridor.
I doubt it. When dealing with the government, nothing is as permanent as "temporary". Trust me. One example I am very familiar with is the Stryker APC which was supposed to be "interim", "temporary"- twenty years later, it's still in use and new variants are coming out
"An early phase of the plan called for the introduction of an 'Interim Armored Vehicle', which was intended to fill the capability gap between heavier and heavily armed, but not easily deployable, vehicles, such as the M2 Bradley, and easily deployable vehicles that are lightly armed and protected, such as the Humvee.It was called the "Interim" Armored Vehicle because it was initially supposed to be a temporary measure until light air-mobile vehicles from the Future Combat Systems Manned Ground Vehicles program came online"
I did ROTC Advanced Camp in and my first unit on active duty was billeted in "temporary" barracks built in early World War 2 and supposed to last five years - in 1973 to 1976
Paul MilenkovicThe later generation Talgo 8's meeting more stringent crash standards are being retained. The State of Wisconsin trains were the Talgo 8's.
Which of course Amtrak refers to as "temporary" replacements. To me that says a conversation has already taken place between Amtrak and DOT officials on what the future will be equipment wise on this corridor.
BaltACD Paul Milenkovic BaltACD CMStPnP charlie hebdo Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service. And yet the Wisconsin experience was some slick haired fast talking Juan Valdez type character (minus the mule) from Talgo HQ that waaayyy oversold the concept and what his company could do for the state. Every time I see that guy on TV running his mouth, man, I don't know how the taxpayers up there put up with him still on TV running his mouth. Eck. Remember - we are living in the age of The Con. Promise everything, deliver nothing. Yes, age of The Con. Are we also living in the age of the ethnic stereotype? Juan Valdez was a character played by an actor, depicting a South American coffee grower? Talgo is a company based in Spain. Spain, Colombia, Cuban actor (playing the Colombian coffee grower Mr. Valdez), they all speak Spanish? American, English, Nigerian, Australian, Sri Lankan, they all speak English? So, someone tell me what the Talgo company failed to deliver, when it was a political decision made by a Wisconsin governor to "pull the pin" on the whole project? While it wasn't a part of the Wisconsin decisions. Washington State has ushered their Talgo's to the scrap yard as a result of the Dupont, WA overspeed derailment from several years ago.
Paul Milenkovic BaltACD CMStPnP charlie hebdo Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service. And yet the Wisconsin experience was some slick haired fast talking Juan Valdez type character (minus the mule) from Talgo HQ that waaayyy oversold the concept and what his company could do for the state. Every time I see that guy on TV running his mouth, man, I don't know how the taxpayers up there put up with him still on TV running his mouth. Eck. Remember - we are living in the age of The Con. Promise everything, deliver nothing. Yes, age of The Con. Are we also living in the age of the ethnic stereotype? Juan Valdez was a character played by an actor, depicting a South American coffee grower? Talgo is a company based in Spain. Spain, Colombia, Cuban actor (playing the Colombian coffee grower Mr. Valdez), they all speak Spanish? American, English, Nigerian, Australian, Sri Lankan, they all speak English? So, someone tell me what the Talgo company failed to deliver, when it was a political decision made by a Wisconsin governor to "pull the pin" on the whole project?
BaltACD CMStPnP charlie hebdo Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service. And yet the Wisconsin experience was some slick haired fast talking Juan Valdez type character (minus the mule) from Talgo HQ that waaayyy oversold the concept and what his company could do for the state. Every time I see that guy on TV running his mouth, man, I don't know how the taxpayers up there put up with him still on TV running his mouth. Eck. Remember - we are living in the age of The Con. Promise everything, deliver nothing.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service. And yet the Wisconsin experience was some slick haired fast talking Juan Valdez type character (minus the mule) from Talgo HQ that waaayyy oversold the concept and what his company could do for the state. Every time I see that guy on TV running his mouth, man, I don't know how the taxpayers up there put up with him still on TV running his mouth. Eck.
charlie hebdo Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service.
And yet the Wisconsin experience was some slick haired fast talking Juan Valdez type character (minus the mule) from Talgo HQ that waaayyy oversold the concept and what his company could do for the state. Every time I see that guy on TV running his mouth, man, I don't know how the taxpayers up there put up with him still on TV running his mouth. Eck.
Remember - we are living in the age of The Con. Promise everything, deliver nothing.
Yes, age of The Con. Are we also living in the age of the ethnic stereotype?
Juan Valdez was a character played by an actor, depicting a South American coffee grower?
Talgo is a company based in Spain. Spain, Colombia, Cuban actor (playing the Colombian coffee grower Mr. Valdez), they all speak Spanish? American, English, Nigerian, Australian, Sri Lankan, they all speak English?
So, someone tell me what the Talgo company failed to deliver, when it was a political decision made by a Wisconsin governor to "pull the pin" on the whole project?
While it wasn't a part of the Wisconsin decisions. Washington State has ushered their Talgo's to the scrap yard as a result of the Dupont, WA overspeed derailment from several years ago.
Cascades Talgo Replacement (trainorders.com)
Unless someone has different information, the earlier generation Talgo 6's were retired for having inadequate protection in a crash following the overspeed accident. The later generation Talgo 8's meeting more stringent crash standards are being retained. The State of Wisconsin trains were the Talgo 8's.
Another writer looking at how our costs per km or mile are ridiculous compared to other industrialized nations. Gateway is the worst.
https://slate.com/technology/2021/08/amtrak-trains-infrastructure-eric-goldwyn.html
243129 "Amtrak is a mess" says it all. Sound familiar?
"Amtrak is a mess" says it all. Sound familiar?
Exactly, Joe. Other than the mediocre NEC, it's a bad joke.
The article seems to show that politics is too involved for Amtrak to have effective control. I don't see where he shows that a foriegner could break the chains.
charlie hebdoGood questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts. Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service.
Amtrak has the best management in decades. It's too bad they couldn't talk CEO Anderson out of retiring and sticking around for a few more years. Though his current replacement isn't too bad. Amtrak is at a transformative moment.
Very happy watching their cost cutting experiments on the Texas Eagle and while I do not like all of them. There is definitely a business intelligence behind them that screams competence for once. I hope they learned a few things during the pandemic with their cost cutting and that learning stays in Amtraks institutional memory for the future.
We will know the real direction when they place the RFP for the Superliner replacements in 2024. With the enhanced funding one can presume they won't be a cheap fly by night political concept but will finally be something of the caliber that will convince Americans they once again have a serious choice for liesure or experience trains in the LD segment. Go SIEMENS!!!!! :)
Other than that, author of the article strikes me as misinformed and is just pontificating hot air.
Lithonia OperatorRe the article: The "Immigration" Framework??? I guess the author was NOT one o' them slick expert fellers.
I wondered the same thing. I even looked it up to see if there was something I missed in the Congressional news. There are some easy jokes to make with something like that.
From the article:
"Perhaps not surprisingly given that Joe Biden is president, the Bipartisan Immigration Framework that seems likely to become law is a big win for Amtrak."
York1 John
Re the article:
The "Immigration" Framework???
I guess the author was NOT one o' them slick expert fellers.
Still in training.
Good questions. I suppose the reasons for turning to foreign passenger rail experts is the same as any failing, cost overridden organization bringing in outside experts.
Foreign experts have a lot more successful experience with passenger rail service.
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