NKP guyNKP guy wrote the following post 28 minutes ago: daveklepper I have never enjoyed dinner more than savorinig the Rocky Mountain Trout on the D&RGW Same here! The single best and most memorable meal I ever had aboard any train.
I agree that the CZ & its reincarnation as the Rio Grande Zepher served a delicious Trout. I have enjoyed many a good meal on trains including some on Amtrak. For a period, they had regional menus that included Creole dishes on the City of New Orleans back in the late 70's or 80's. And on a trip on the CNO with my son, I remember requesting & receiving permission to ride in the ex SF Hilevel ElCapitan Coaches that were on the end of the train to be used North of Carbondale. We had the cars to ourselves. In the morning, came down the stairs and crossed over to the diner and enjoyed perfect RR French Toast. Also, riding the Broadway Limited and having dinner in the twin car diner during a rain storm in Indiana running alongside US Rt 30. Watching the autos kick up spray as we roll past them whie enjoying a good meal was nice. On a vacation trip when we rode the Empire Builder in '68, My son (age 7) got a little nausia from the diesel fumes in Cascade Tunnel so he and I did not have diner but later went to the Ranch Coffee Shop car where he had a BLT and declared it was the BEST he had ever had. I think an appetite had something to do with it.
On the other end of meal service, in '67, on the Monon's Throughbred train to Louisville, a news butch was serving the "food" from his cooler in the vestibule of one of the coaches and I watched as he "built" a ham sandwich from a loaf of white bread (2 slices), a smear of butter, three thin slices of ham, and one leaf of lettuce, slid it into a glassine bag and Whalla. ONE HAM SANDWICH. I don't recall where he got off but I suspect it was Crawfordsville. That was better than nothing.
CMStPnP What about berthing of visiting Navy ships and economic impact of that?
What about berthing of visiting Navy ships and economic impact of that?
NKP guy And I'm convinced this is an 1860's solution to the problem.
And that was in an age largely of low wage or other 'people' costs ... and a surplus of immigrant or other groups willing to work hard and willingly for those low wages.
In something like a Rocky Mountaineer where the luxury can be built in without excuse, you can afford to run staffed diners with efficient commissary backup, cordon bleu chefs, attentive and memorable service. How you even approximate that on a transportation service fraught with its own politics and lacking more than a circumstantial organizational esprit de corps is trouble enough. How it could reliably pay its way is worse.
On the other hand, longer and longer LD trips will be intolerable without sensible food options... which must either conform to profitability if Amtrak provided, or offer dependable service at all times, if Amtrak-coordinated. It is difficult to imagine a 'catering' commissary model with adequate non-Amtrak business to thrive as needed, to be able to afford the food cost and prep time in the necessary range of meal options, and to act successfully in dispensing 'wasted' or unclaimed meals as 'profitably' as possible. Perhaps some locations with Mr. Klepper's 'station restaurants' can manage that; it is quite certain to me that few if any post-1870s methods of providing food on trains will do better.
Again, I think my station restaurant concept can solve the problem, where the food brought to the dining cars, either eaten while still warm or refrigorated for microwave, is only a small part of a large bfoad-menue operation that includes sit-down, take-out, and possibly home and office delivery.
daveklepperAgain, I think my station restaurant concept can solve the problem, where the food brought to the dining cars, either eaten while still warm or refrigorated for microwave, is only a small part of a large bfoad-menue operation that includes sit-down, take-out, and possibly home and office delivery.
The station restaurant concept can only work IF the restaurant is a draw for the locals in numbers far beyond whatever Amtrak clientele gets involved in it. Secondly will Amtrak make a 'meal stop' or will the meals be loaded on the train in bulk and then distributed by Amtrak personnel. If there is a meal stop, will Amtrak pay the track owner additional fees for increased track occupancy? Will there be meals to order, or 'one size fits all'? If it is meals to order - what kind of infrastructure will be implemented to facilitate the ordering? Who pays for the trash disposal for all the trash that is created on the trains from the 'leftovers' from the meal service?
There is much more complexity to the station restaurant concept than first meets the eye.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It's logistically impossible in most cases to 'dwell' any LD train while the passengers get off and scarf down the equivalent of a 'Demi-poulet avec vin rouge', let alone have a leisured dining experience. In some cases it might be possible to let passengers detrain to get their meals, or pick them up as delivered to trainside. But that's about the extent of it.
That means a choice of menu of three basic kinds: packaged with minimal prep (for taking to rooms directly, perhaps with special heat and cold provision); items for lounge make-ready (microwave or convection reheat with no more than spot prep or quick finish cooking; attractive plating and presentation but no 'waiter' table service other than perhaps drinks); and actual sit-down prep and service, using the diners but not relying on commissary stocking, unused food, prep requirements etc. It may be possible to pass most or all the plates, silverware, etc. off the train in sealable containers, to be 'contract-washed' at a corresponding 'station restaurant' for the opposite direction.
At least theoretically -- I have described some ways to make this workable at least in principle -- you can have some of the 'diner' attendant staff board with the food, and detrain with the dishes, to keep them out of the four-day rotation of death that would involve one food crew riding end to end. Relatively easy, to the extent any restaurant can do it, to adjust the called staff to the actual service requirements on a particular day.
Frankly I think the analogue of an upscale version of a Holiday Inn Express free breakfast bar could easily be put in portable carts, and the food prep as easily done by one or two people in the diner as is done in the motel. An analogue for all-you-can-eat-within-reason (as for evenings at Drury) could be similarly arranged for lunch or even dinner.
If a better than passable meal service on longer train rides is required, simply copy the model used by Deutsche Bahn. It's not rocket science.
charlie hebdo If a better than passable meal service on longer train rides is required, simply copy the model used by Deutsche Bahn. It's not rocket science.
Definitely boarded on the train:
JPS1What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train?
There are a couple of very good pages at bahn.de that cover the recent meal program and some of the reasoning behind it -- but for some reason my mobile browsers render these detail pages only in German whether or not I select the 'English' version of the site (tab at upper right), and then Google Translate has some weird snit about scraping the page text content and rendering it as English.
Some of the DB incentives, like hiring yearly 'chef advisors' who are famous in the food community or influencers with substantial media following, are things that have in some form been tried in the States -- and some of the ways the food is served, facilities used and kept clean, and waste/trash is handled might be issues for union discussions. The most important thing I see to be adopted here, though, is the kind of enthusiastic top-down championing that is an essential precondition for effective implementation of Six-Sigmaesque quality improvement. DB shows it while Amtrak mouths expediency and experimental cost reduction to 'game' parts of the Congressional profitability mandate.
Overmod JPS1 What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train? I think there is more in the attitude DB uses and in some of the plans they have than in applicability of the exact amenities and menu choices. There are a couple of very good pages at bahn.de that cover the recent meal program and some of the reasoning behind it -- but for some reason my mobile browsers render these detail pages only in German whether or not I select the 'English' version of the site (tab at upper right), and then Google Translate has some weird snit about scraping the page text content and rendering it as English. Some of the DB incentives, like hiring yearly 'chef advisors' who are famous in the food community or influencers with substantial media following, are things that have in some form been tried in the States -- and some of the ways the food is served, facilities used and kept clean, and waste/trash is handled might be issues for union discussions. The most important thing I see to be adopted here, though, is the kind of enthusiastic top-down championing that is an essential precondition for effective implementation of Six-Sigmaesque quality improvement. DB shows it while Amtrak mouths expediency and experimental cost reduction to 'game' parts of the Congressional profitability mandate.
JPS1 What is it about the “meal model” used by Deutsche Bahn that should make me want to go there? And eat a sit-down meal on a train?
I think there is more in the attitude DB uses and in some of the plans they have than in applicability of the exact amenities and menu choices.
We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
I would not suggest someone should visit Germany just to sample their food services. They are simply an adjunct to an excellent rail transportation service. However, the food is good, menus have variety and it is affordable. The crews are service-oriented, friendly and informative. Cleanliness is top-notch. Pretty clearly excellence is a commitment to bottom.
BaltACDWe need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
NOW you're talking! I second the idea.
I visited Germany several times 1960 - 1994, and have reported in detail preveously. I was never expecting anything as marvelous as D&RGW Rocky Mountain Trout, but all train meals were good-to-excellent, service always excellent, and the trains themselves excellent. After 1970, no trouible meeting my "special diatary requiremenets," even easier then Amrak since no prior arrangement was required. In Europe, only the Swiss are even better. In fact. if Germany's specialty is Orchetral Music and Bach, France Food and Frank. and Italy Opera, I'd say the great art-form of Switzerland is railroads. Well. the scenery and its challenges make that possible. The food on their trains is great also, when available.
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center. NOW you're talking! I second the idea.
BaltACD We need a mandate to make Congress profitable instead of being a cost center.
The concept that the legislature must in and of itself be profitable is frightening.
Don't think that we'll ever see traditional dining on Amtrak again. COVID-19 just accelerated the process.
Toronto Fan Don't think that we'll ever see traditional dining on Amtrak again. COVID-19 just accelerated the process.
Should traditional dining on Amtrak's trains come back?
Approximately 85 percent of Amtrak's long-distance passengers ride coach. Would they really raise a fuss if the dining cars were scrapped in favor of an expanded menu in the lounge car?
Ideally, if it were not for the politics, the long-distance trains would be scrapped. They don't make any economic sense. But politics being politics, that probably won't happen. So, one alternative could be to reconfigure the long-distance train to make it less labor intensive.
If I were in charge and could get away with it, I would scrap the baggage, sleeping and dining cars. I would replace the sleeper with a business class car equipped with pods similar to those found on overseas flights. A train would have one or two business class cars, an enhanced lounge car, and coach/baggage cars.
According to Amtrak's passenger profiles, a typical sleeping car passenger is on the train for just one night; a typical coach passenger is on the train for less than 10 to 12 hours. If people can handle an overnight flight from LAX to Sydney in a business class pod, they can handle one night in a similar arrangement on an Amtrak train.
Amtrak should be able to structure its service for what future generations are likely to want, use, and pay for. Not what a bunch of geezers (that's me) think is required because of tradition.
In earlier threads, have come up with comprehensive and important answers to all the comments in the previous post. Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
JPS1.
Great idea!!
daveklepper Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
daveklepper In earlier threads, have come up with comprehensive and important answers to all the comments in the previous post. Implementation of my ideas would expand the market instead of contracting it depriving those who value the LD service the most of that service with the implumentation of your ideas.
I think Overmod gave a well-reasoned response to your idea on another thread.
You said you were submitting this plan to Amtrak. Any response?
As much as I love trains, I also think of opportunity cost. If just thinking in terms of transporting people a long distance (and/or through lightly populated regions), limited to ground transportation, a lot of money channeled to Amtrak LD could be used to offer long distance travel by highway in comfortable, luxury vehicles without stepping on a lot of private sector toes.
Gramp ....a lot of money channeled to Amtrak LD could be used to offer long distance travel by highway in comfortable, luxury vehicles without stepping on a lot of private sector toes.
Or better yet, as shown in the link, encourage the private sector to offer luxury service where it is feasible. Which is what Vonlane is doing in Texas.
I don't know how they are doing financially, but they have been expanding their network.
https://www.vonlane.com/
JPS1I don't know how they are doing financially, but they have been expanding their network. https://www.vonlane.com/
Take the list of 'preferred anenities' from the previous posted list: 'pod' amenities or equivalent; different levels of food service including dedicated Klepper-style station prep... use those as your amenity baseline and then run down last fall's list of 'easy-to-implement' Delta amenities.
I've taken Amtrak a lot in the post dining car change era - the changes whilst disappointing on the CA Zephyr haven't changed the actual food - you just get plastic plates - it's not like on the East Coast.
It's an amazing trip, I'd say do it!
1 I agree that the extra cost of sleeper service should be reflected in ticket prices, and the occopancy rate of many of the sleeper services idicates that should be possible.
2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in an unsafe neighborhood, would encourage train travel.
3. Amtrak's Trhuway bus connections do bring LDT to most of the cities listed without Amtrak service.
daveklepper2. The recent huge proliferation of the number of all-night Pizzarias in most USA cities (and in Jerusalem!) indicates one 7/24 full-service restaurant should be a success, and an Amtrak station location, if not in a "combat zone." would encourage train travel.
What is a "combat zone"?
243129 What is a "combat zone"?
CSSHEGEWISCH 243129 What is a "combat zone"? It's a derogatory euphemism used to refer to a rough neighborhood.
Amtrak Throughway Buses? Here in Lansing, MI I have to catch the Capitol in Toledo Ohio. I can take the Amtrak bus from th Lansing depot, and depending upon the weekday it is a 4 to 5 hour trip. I can drive to the Toledo Union Station in about an hour and 20 minutes. The bus is not an attractive option. Not only that, parking is free in TOledo, but the lot at the Lansing station charges.
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