charlie hebdo n012944: Since you choose to be obtuse and snarky, here you are: You ride first class for all air travel. Ain't you special! But it is unlikely that the level of service you decided was worth paying through the nose for can be applied to a rail service where multiple meals are served to at least 100 people, probably more.
n012944: Since you choose to be obtuse and snarky, here you are:
You ride first class for all air travel. Ain't you special! But it is unlikely that the level of service you decided was worth paying through the nose for can be applied to a rail service where multiple meals are served to at least 100 people, probably more.
It is sad that you have to resort to name calling, I thought you were better than that.
I never said I was special, but thanks for thinking I am! Be wise with your investments and businesses, and you can afford to travel that way as well. You should also do some research before claiming that I paid "through the nose" for first class tickets. They really are not that expensive, and far cheaper that an Amtrak sleeper ticket.
However, there is no reason a train, which has far more storage space, along with the ability to replenish the food supply along its routes, cannot give airline style catering.
An "expensive model collector"
I would not fly first class on a domestic flight, unless it were to Hawaii. International, however, is worth it to me. I won't say anything more about your condescending remarks except to say I am quite aware of finding and using cheaper fares as long as it fits with my schedule. If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
As for modern trains and food service, there are plenty of examples abroad that are more applicable to our rail services.
charlie hebdo If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
If I am really after fine dining, it's not on a flight.
Nobody ever said anything about fine dining. Food does not have to fit into the fine dining catagory to be quality. Keep using extremes to try to stick to your guns...
charlie hebdo As for modern trains and food service, there are plenty of examples abroad that are more applicable to our rail services.
charlie hebdo I am quite aware of finding and using cheaper fares as long as it fits with my schedule
I'm using what you think of as extremes because David K's proposal is unrealistic. Yours? Meh.. I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor]
Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic?
n012944 charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor] Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic?
Your first class arrogance is showing along with problems of logic and reading comprehension.
Since when should/are dining car food services be only for sleeping car passengers?
BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And independently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
On the another post you suggested it's not rocket science to be the engineer on a train. I agree. But I have concluded from discussions with Joe and zug that it does seem to have some fairly unique cognitive and other ability challenges that are not about intelligence factors. Did you work in T&E?
charlie hebdo n012944 charlie hebdo I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so. [hint: time and labor] Oh, I thought we were talking about present. Why else would you quote the menu from a temporary pandemic airline menu? Since we are talking about the present, currently only sleeping car passengers are permitted in the diner. Please, which Amtrak trains currently have 150 passengers in sleepers? Even better, which trains had 150 passengers in the sleepers pre pandemic? Your first class arrogance is showing along with problems of logic and reading comprehension.
Resorting to name calling again. Sad, once again I always thought you were above that.
charlie hebdo Since when should/are dining car food services be only for sleeping car passengers?
My mistake, it is only for Amtrak's east coast trains.
https://www.wvgazettemail.com/life/travel/quality-service-ambience-go-off-the-tracks-with-amtraks-flexible-dining/article_5179c3c8-962b-5ced-bc38-f5903858b436.html
"As of Oct. 1, dining car service on those trains was replaced with what Amtrak is calling “flexible dining,” but only for sleeper car passengers.
For coach and business class passengers, who used to have the option of buying meals in the dining car, the car is now off-limits."
charlie hebdo BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And indepently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
BTW, several news/business publications or broadcast outlets have predicted the airlines are unlikely to return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024, maybe later. And indepently others suggest the amount of business travel for meetings, conventions and calling on customers has forever decreased.
I said 2025 in a post on this thread from earlier today. I guess I was wrong....
charlie hebdo On the another post you suggested it's not rocket science to be the engineer on a train. I agree. But I have concluded from discussions with Joe and zug that it does seem to have some fairly unique cognitive and other ability challenges that are not about intelligence factors. Did you work in T&E?
That question has nothing to do with dining on Amtrak. I have made my position at the railroad quite clear on this board.
Obviously the temporal context is getting in the way.
So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present, why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers? Because including food in the prices of their tickets is some necessary lure for maintaining patronage? What about in the future? How would you propose managing that level of food service for a much larger number of potential patrons? And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
charlie hebdo So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present,
So if you are now discussing only the indefinite present,
Is that not what you did by linking pandemic era menus for airlines first class service?
charlie hebdo why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers?
why propose an upgraded food service only for the sleeping car passengers?
Because that is the direction Amtrak is going.
charlie hebdo And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
And BTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
"I could specify why your idea of serving airline front cabin meals on a train with 100-150 passengers is unrealistic, but most other readers already know why that is so."
Electroliner 1935 Does anyone know what Rockie Mountaineer pay their crew and food service staff?
charlie hebdoBTW, at least some rail food services abroad use convection ovens and proper plating, same as airline first class.
The 'other side' of this, how the dirty dishes are handled in a time of SARS-CoV-2 (which remains infectious an extended time in lipid contamination), needs to be taken up in detail. Here airline best practice may be applicable, but keeping the dirty 'containerized encapsulated storage' out of "circulation" on a typical Amtrak consist as opposed to a widebody jet may require some cleverness.
That applies to my old idea (from the '70s) of using nonwoven tablecloths and napkins and heavy plastic utensils that can be washed a certain number of times if necessary or disposed of if inconvenient -- with proper plating the resulting 'silverware' can be most delightful to use (or quietly 'sequester' for later!) without having to obsess about shrink or sterilization expediency.
GERALD A EDGAR What you & Amtrak forget to factor in is the connecting traffic from NEC and L/D trains.
Mr. Numbers:
Obviously you just like to argue, as can be seen in your testy, rather pointless exchanges over time with several other members on other topics.
1. Decent qualty food should be available to coach as well as sleeping-car passengers. If the prices seem high to coach passengers, the lower-cost lounge-car food iis available . But the restaurant scheme should work to keep prices from being astronomical. And I am still convinced such a station restaurant in major cities would be successful.
2. Overmod's ideas regarding plates, cups, knives, forks, and spoons make abundant sense. And keeping dirty stuff isolated isn't rocket science and should be effective. A large dirty-clothing hamper with multiple plastic bags is one approach.
charlie hebdoObviously you just like to argue...
I guess it's true that no good deed goes unpunished...
I think Amtrak could drop the baggage car, the lounge car, and the dining car and still make it with the LD passenger train via innovation.
Baggage: On my last Texas Eagle trip it looks like Amtrak is going down this path as they converted one of the first floor rooms in the Sleeper to carry baggage. It was either the Family Room or the H room. I did not figure out which I was just so surprised to see a room of shelves for luggage as well as shocked at what a good idea it was. If they did this on each Sleeper and then expanded the red cap service to deliver the baggage to the Sleeper ahead of boarding for an extra fee.....walla, there is a service passengers would pay for in addition. Otherwise passengers could carry their own baggage to the train sleeper. Either way, Amtrak gets rid of paying for checked baggage as well as paying for staff and equipment to haul it..........move that all to the red caps and let them charge for it and maintain the equipment from the money they make. Think about Amtrak charging a fee for extra baggage as well like the airlines do. That former Family or H Bedroom would really be a money maker now.
Dining Car - OK with keeping this if the sleeping car passengers pay for hauling the car and staffing it. I don't see how that is possible with only 1-2 sleepers per LD train though. So outside of Auto Train unless you have like 5-6 sleepers per train the Dining Car should be dropped. The food sucks anyway. I would replace it with a Cafe Car that was 50% Cafe and 50% Coach so if the Cafe part was shut down or not used, the car still earns revenue. So the sleeping car passengers can have their meals warmed or cooked in the Cafe Car and carried to their rooms by the attendant just as easily as it can be done by the Dining Car. OR show up in the Cafe Car with a sleeping car voucher. Coach passengers should also be able to use the same car. However, the differentiation should be here in the meal quality. Sleeping car passengers get a full tray meal. Coach passengers only get snacks unless they pay a premium for the Sleeping Car tray meal. Makes sense to me one half car to serve food instead of a full dining car plus lounge. If the LD consist expands, OK then go to a full dining car. The LD consists are far too small at this point and the passengers carried too little per LD train to pay for a full length dining car.
Lounge Car - Again, I liked the private railroad concept where they combined the vista dome with paid for coach seats on the first level instead of a lounge car with no revenue seats at all (Amtrak Superliner Lounge). Smarter to do it this way and if Amtrak can innovate and figure this out again, I am OK with a coach lounge combo. Not OK with a lounge car that runs by itself and is only lounge. Again Amtraks fault dating from the 1970's in their attempt to make the passenger train largely one class and open to everyone. Not how I remember the private rails running things and no idea why Amtrak changed from their proven concept.
On top of the above they need to do far better with co-branding, marketing with travel packages and off train add-on trips or deals with local hotels to raise revenue from LD trains. The current model has proven to be a money loser and could use a lot of improvement..........and this does not have to be an "essential service" to be preserved. Rural airline service is not "essential" but Congress pays for it to preserve it. If you want to drop both fine but be consistent across all the modes of travel including bus routes, airline routes, etc.
All above is compatible with the station restaurant scheme and should produce costs savings, unless the use of the train, its capacity, and number of coaches and sleepers are all considerably greater than typical today.
I have read all of the comments, on topic and off topic and insults thrown back & forth, now it is my turn. First of all, Amtrak should keep LD service as it is used by many people. I rode last summer on CZ from Chi to Denver where we picked up rental car and return boarded at Glenwood Springs to Chi,and both trains were packed in coaches, I did not do a sleeper on this trip. But they still had the regular dining car and our friend got his signature steak on both trips, I got my salmon and other friend got her chicken. All delicious meals. Then I rode on Texas Eagle, same story and same diner, also on SW Chief to Ft. Madison, IA with a railfan group, same story full train and regular diner. We were to take the Cap Ltd, Pennsylvanian, and Cardinal a month ago but cancelled due to Covid. Would have all been new trains for all of us. and was looking forward to seeing what new menu would be like. I did ride Builder and Coast Starlight in '03 in a deluxe bedroom as I was traveling alone for total of 3 nights and wanted my own space and bathroom. My first LD trip on Amtrak and diner was comparable to what passenger railroads were serving pre-Amtrak. I rode many of them with parents on Dad's pass. Talking about liquor, Dad wanted a beer with lunch in some county in KS that was dry, but as soon as we crossed into wet county, he got his beer. I also rode with friend on SW Chief to Grand Canyon in '05 and delicious meals, we shared a sleeper bedroom. I have rode the City of New Orleans in '16 and '18 to visit a friend down there and the meals were microwaved and not the same as the real diner food. It was decent but not like I heard about years earlier with the regional cuisine. But it will make no matter to me, as I go for the train experience, the scenery, people I meet from all over, last trip on CONO I met a couple from Scotland in my sleeper and we ate meals together. But I do not want the LD trains to be taken off, as I want to take a trip and go farther than Chi or KC, I do get roomette on CONO, gives me privacy traveling alone. Dad always was the one who sat alone in case some goofball got on and sat with him. When 3 friends and I went to CA for my last trip on UP City of St. Louis, we took a Pullman bedroom because none of us wanted to sit alone. That was great and got to experience what that was like, even rode the all Pullman UP City of Los Angeles to Ogden where our car was switched over to City of St. L. We had fancy lounges, round nose ob on the rear and dome diner. So I will always ride Amtrak as long as they have trains running, grew up with it and never stopped loving it.
CMStPnP: Voila! I largely agree. I would like a bit more detail on food services, however. Would everyone pay enough to cover above the rail costs? That would be for sleeper, above the subsidized ticket for coach?
I prefer that meals not be included in the cost of a ticket, but be reasonably priced, as possible with the station restaurant scheme.
In addition to individually-priced meals, and Table d'Hotel service (each food and drink item priced separately), meal plans can also be offered for one price for all meals of a specific trip.
As far as my restaurant scheme being "unrealistic," the main argument seems to be that there are no full-service 24-hour restaurants in major metropolitan areas, so a new one won't be a success. My counter argument is that good hotel restaurants are exactly that, and no real concrete reason has been shown why a new one, serving the entire metropolitan area, could not be a success.
Charlie, in another matter where you won't consult primary sources, where you regard the translations I use as propaganda, and I regard your sources as combinations of lies and/or exageration, we have decided to disagree. So, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this matter as well.
In the US, the term for individually priced food and beverage items is a la carte.
Table d hote = price fixe = la menu = an entire meal, beverage, main course, beverage and maybe soup, appetizer and dessert.
I never stated there are no 24 hour restaurants. I stated there do not appear to be any at major rail stations. I doubt if many or any hotels do either.
Thank you for the correction to the USA use of the French term. I'd forgotten and appreciate the reminder, thank you.
And we will leave our disagreements alone and appreciate each other's other efforts to make food service (and passenger service in general) both better and more economical.
One good hotel at a railroad station is the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal. A 24 hour restaurant at Washington Union seems a natural fit, and Sunnyside Yard air rights could include a new good hotel. Great view of the city skyline, and a few minites from downtown via the "7." But doesn't Hudson Yards Development, adjacent to Penn Station, include a good hotel?
daveklepperThank you for the correction to the USA use of the French term. I'd forgotten and appreciate the reminder, thank you. And we will leave our disagreements alone and appreciate each other's other efforts to make food service (and passenger service in general) both better and more economical. One good hotel at a railroad station is the Queen Elizabeth in Montreal. A 24 hour restaurant at Washington Union seems a natural fit, and Sunnyside Yard air rights could include a new good hotel. Great view of the city skyline, and a few minites from downtown via the "7." But doesn't Hudson Yards Development, adjacent to Penn Station, include a good hotel?
The stations and locations you have mentioned are more end points of the lines, not inroute points. The dining function on long distance trains happens when the trains are inroute. Harpers Ferry, WV; Cumberland, MD; Sebring, FL; and hundreds of similar type locations that long distance trains traverse at normal meal hours don't lend themselves to the station restaurant concept - while they may serve the railroads needs, is there sufficient local business to actually keep them in business.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Tell you what:
You guys get Howard Johnson's to service the Amtrak dining cars (full menu, c.1965) with takeout, and I'll support the idea and happily eat in the cars.
Or get Fred Harvey.
Otherwise, don't bother on my behalf.
Prediction: If Mr. Biden wins and the Democrats re-take the Senate, watch for the eventual return of real dining cars as well as daily LD trains.
Memo to self: Dig out my 78's of "Happy Days Are Here Again" for use in early November.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=AwrEzezIriRfT0EANxVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0N2Noc21lBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=happy+days+are+here+again&fr2=piv-web&fr=uh3_news_vert_gs#action=view&id=50&vid=ebab0b65847d1e2aa17978aba8e78871
Please refrain from issuing edicts about disagreements with you.
Due to the pandemic, the Fairmount Queen Elizabeth's restaurant (Rosaly's) is not open except to provide boxed meals from 6am-9:30pm. Years ago the hotel was owned by CN and had a nice restaurant, but I doubt if it was 24/7 even then.
Balt, I made iy clear already that meals not served soon after departure Fron a station restaurat station (and KC and Denver are examples of en-route points) would be refrigorated for storage and microwaved for sevice. still quality meals in my experience.
And I do believe that the Conavirus problem will be solved.
Of course, there's always the legal and health liability. How many restaurants would put their name on a meal that they don't either serve or deliver to the consumer? They don't know storage or sanitation conditions on the train or the final preparation.
BackshopBackshop wrote the following post 3 hours ago: Of course, there's always the legal and health liability. How many restaurants would put their name on a meal that they don't either serve or deliver to the consumer? They don't know storage or sanitation conditions on the train or the final preparation.
Perefectly put.
Plus, what a field day for lawyers.
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