We are not usually concerned with buses at Railway Age, but what would happen if Greyhound buses suddenly disappeared from American roads, and Amtrak became the only provider of passenger transportation with a nationwide reach? That speculation is not as far-fetched as it would appear at first blush, as a similar scenario is being played out at this writing in much of Canada.
https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/america-without-greyhound-and-no-replacement-passenger-trains/
Who killed the long distance passenger bus?
Long distance bus service is begining to resemble rail passnger service in the 1950's. Profits are so low reinvestment in the business is a money loser. More routes are being discontinued. Large areas of the country, especially rural areas, no longer are being serviced.
If you want travel long distances and not fly there, get a car.
Knew a retired Greyhound driver who ran between Kansas City and Colby Kansas in the glory days wherein another driver brought the bus into Denver. Met a modern- day Greyhound driver who does the whole run by himself. He talked about how tiring the 600 mile trip was. Safety!
You used to see Railway Express cars on the head end of long distance passenger trains. You used to see a lot express packages under the bus seats with passengers' luggage.
The express package business has left the bus for Fed Ex and UPS.
Victrola1You used to see Railway Express cars on the head end of long distance passenger trains. You used to see a lot express packages under the bus seats with passengers' luggage. The express package business has left the bus for Fed Ex and UPS.
Greyhound Express is much more affordable for items that 'cube out' than are UPS or FedEx. Send a fiberglass piece of bodywork to my son - Florida to Kansas. UPS wanted $150 based on the boxed dimensions of the part, it went Greyhound Express for about $30. Drawback, I had to deliver the box to Greyhound and my son had to pick it up from Greyhound on his end.
UPS and FedEx have their pick up issues (UPS Store etc) and both deliver to the door on the destination end.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The question is becoming will any form of surface, long distance passenger service exist in America.
Victrola1The question is becoming will any form of surface, long distance passenger service exist in America.
"I second that emotion."
Intercity bus service was as overregulated as railroading at both the state and interstate levels. Look at Greyhound or Trailways timetables from the 1960's-1970's era and review all of the conditional stops, reference marks and special notices. As an example, you could ride Greyhound locally between downtown Chicago and Hammond but not between Chicago and Chicago Heights. The distances are similar but one route is interstate while the other is intrastate.
Victrola1 The question is becoming will any form of surface, long distance passenger service exist in America.
JPS1 Victrola1 The question is becoming will any form of surface, long distance passenger service exist in America. Part of the answer depends on what you mean by long-distance. Moreover, I assume you mean commercial surface transportation as opposed to personal vehicles. Assuming Amtrak does not cut all of the long-distance trains, it probably will be possible to ride a train from Chicago to the west coast for decades to come. According to Amtrak, in 2017 the average ride for a coach class passenger on the long-distance trains was 497 miles. The average for a sleeping car passenger was 991 miles. Only four to ten percent of the passengers on the trains from Chicago to the west coast ride end point to end point, which shows that very few people want to travel “long distances” by surface mode. Most Americans prefer to fly long distances. Greyhound has six schedules a day from Dallas to Los Angeles. I have taken the bus from Dallas to El Paso just for the experience. If it was indicative of that for most travelers, very few people ride a bus from Dallas to Los Angeles or from end point to end point for the routes that cover "long distances". Most of them ride from one intermediate point to another. I expect these services to be around for a long time, but few people will opt to ride end point to end point. Megabus and Greyhound compete vigorously for passengers between Dallas and Houston, as well as Dallas and San Antonio. The distances are roughly 250 miles. If this is what is meant by long-distance surface commercial transport, I believe it will be viable for a long time to come.
Which is what LD trains are all about. Not the Origin-Destination passengers, but all the intermediate locations served. The mind set about 'public transportation' in todays world views anything other than O-D passengers as being 'fly over' in nature and not worth of service - either rail or bus. The Marie Antoniette strategy - let them get automobiles.
I hope someone is going to push for Federal Legislation to create a national long-distance bus network. It's hard to imagine a country as great as ours abandoning the long tradition of fast and convient long-distance buses.
I would suggest they call is AmHound.
There should be one bus per day on EACH of the interstates serving every Denny's in the country.
Re: The Marie Antoniette strategy - let them get automobiles.
Seems to me the "Marie Antoniette strategy" is - let them ride on substandard rail transportion. Who wants to ride something designed for the 1950's, with speeds from the 1920's, and train-frequency from the 1860.
It's time to daylight the LD trains, and convert them into short segments that would be useful to people other than rail-enthusiast and (mostly rich) old-people with lots of time on their hands.
JOHN PRIVARA Re: The Marie Antoniette strategy - let them get automobiles. Seems to me the "Marie Antoniette strategy" is - let them ride on substandard rail transportion. Who wants to ride something designed for the 1950's, with speeds from the 1920's, and train-frequency from the 1860. It's time to daylight the LD trains, and convert them into short segments that would be useful to people other than rail-enthusiast and (mostly rich) old-people with lots of time on their hands.
+1
I believe your (plural) conclusions are faulty. The passengers who do not ride end-point - to - end-point still include a substantial number who ride almost end-point to end-point. People who ride the Chief Jolliette to Barstow, the Zephyr from Galesburg to Reno, the Empire Builder from Milwaukee to Spokane. The most important reason in my own opinion for Long Distance trains in the USA and Canada is to make continental mobility possible for the elderly and handicapped who cannot either fly or endure long bus or auto trips. The transportation equivalent of the handicapped access ramps and hard-of-hearing listening systems in theaters and concert halls. They need both through service and comfort. And decent food. There are other reasons for LDS, tourism, emergencies, and, for the Empire Builder and Canadian, winter mobility for certain communities. But the elderly and handicapped is the most important.
An example of a bus having mostly corridor passengers is not a good analogy. Another purpose and mainly different clientel.
daveklepper I believe your (plural) conclusions are faulty. The passengers who do not ride end-point - to - end-point still include a substantial number who ride almost end-point to end-point. People who ride the Chief Jolliette to Barstow, the Zephyr from Galesburg to Reno, the Empire Builder from Milwaukee to Spokane. The most important reason in my own opinion for Long Distance trains in the USA and Canada is to make continental mobility possible for the elderly and handicapped who cannot either fly or endure long bus or auto trips. The transportation equivalent of the handicapped access ramps and hard-of-hearing listening systems in theaters and concert halls. They need both through service and comfort. And decent food. There are other reasons for LDS, tourism, emergencies, and, for the Empire Builder and Canadian, winter mobility for certain communities. But the elderly and handicapped is the most important. An example of a bus having mostly corridor passengers is not a good analogy. Another purpose and mainly different clientele.
An example of a bus having mostly corridor passengers is not a good analogy. Another purpose and mainly different clientele.
Dave is right -- but what I think is needed is a different paradigm for the bus service that would 'replace' what Amtrak thinks it's doing with the through LD train "transportation service".
The immediate thing would be to get the Megabus/Stagecoach people up to speed with the attractive "Velocibus" technology promoted by "Obama" a few years ago. A double-deck vehicle with Pickwickian amenities that is run up to 165mph on 'dedicated' parts of the road system looks like it offers much the same sensibility as current LD service.
And then there is the Interstate Traveller approach -- see details as mentioned in this post.. With the rise of the 'autonomous' bubble, this begins to represent as useful a target for billions of Keynesian-style stimulus 'and all that implies' as anything restricted to someone else's railroads.
Re: But the elderly and handicapped is the most important.
If it's a transportation subsidy for the elderly and handicapped there are FAR better ways than 1950's trains running on 1920's schedules.
The long distance trains are ruining any chance of having useful trains for the rest of the population. It's time to eliminate them; break the routes into daylight segments (that everybody could use) and try to move Amtrak out of the 1950's and (at least) into the 1980's. It's a waste of money perpetuating the 1950's.
Do this instead (it's a PDF):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T2HT7l79BiHvZtaOTXpew8_5-rz-Q0tH/view
daveklepperdaveklepper wrote the following post 7 hours ago: I believe your (plural) conclusions are faulty. The passengers who do not ride end-point - to - end-point still include a substantial number who ride almost end-point to end-point. People who ride the Chief Jolliette to Barstow, the Zephyr from Galesburg to Reno, the Empire Builder from Milwaukee to Spokane. The most important reason in my own opinion for Long Distance trains in the USA and Canada is to make continental mobility possible for the elderly and handicapped
1. Do you have any data to support this notion of almost-endpoint to almost- endpoint ridership being anything more than a drop in a small bucket?
2. If the LD trains' justification should be for the physically challenged, then get the subsidy for that from ADA appropriations.
Since JPS1 said that the average coach passenger rode only 497 miles on an LD train, I doubt it.
The whole premise of the article is wrong.
"what would happen if Greyhound buses suddenly disappeared from American roads, and Amtrak became the only provider of passenger transportation with a nationwide reach?"
All of the Big 4 airlines provide nationwide service and serve more communties than Amtrak LD trains. For example, Amtrak in Michigan doesn't serve any communties north of Lansing/Grand Rapids. The airlines serve 9 airports with a catchment of the entire northern part of the state that are north of there.
Backshop Since JPS1 said that the average coach passenger rode only 497 miles on an LD train, I doubt it.
JPS1 isn’t smart enough to come up with the number by himself. It can be found on Page 66 of the Amtrak Service Line Plans | FY 2018 - 2023. It is for 2017; it probably has changed little if at all since 2017.
According to the same source, the average trip length in 2017 for a sleeper class passenger was 991 miles, which suggests that most of the long-distance sleeping car passengers are on the train for just one night.
Most Americans traveling across the country or over significant distances fly. Some of them, if traveling with the family on vacation, may choose to drive.
Whether Greyhound is a national system is debatable. I would argue that it is really a linked set of regional operations, with very few passengers traveling beyond one region and even fewer riding across the country.
If Greyhound went away, there are several regional bus systems that could fill the void. One line that comes to mind is Peter Pan, which is based in Springfield, Massachusetts. It provides an excellent service throughout New England. Or new lines probably would popup.
Backshop "Since JPS1 said that the average coach passenger rode only 497 miles on an LD train, I doubt it. "
JPS1 "...isn’t smart enough to come up with the number by himself. It can be found on Page 66 of the Amtrak Service Line Plans | FY 2018 - 2023. It is for 2017; it probably has changed little if at all..."
Further, from JPS1: "...If Greyhound went away, there are several regional bus systems that could fill the void. One line that comes to mind is Peter Pan, which is based in Springfield, Massachusetts. It provides an excellent service throughout New England. Or new lines probably would popup..."
Convenience and Price: [ Long time ago in another part of my life] I worked for several years, in Memphis,Tn; sleping bags. and bus freight to earn money to go to school. In the 1950's/60s, there were two major bus operators, Greyhound and Continental Trailways. In Memphis, the two terminals were across the street from each other. Sort of a Hatfield and McCoy relationship; were traded some freight, back and forth, and passengers when one line did not meet their needs.
Eventually, they both seemed to dry up and go away...Corporate decisions being what they were; Greyhound, back then, was a division of Dial [Soap?]Corp. C/T was a victim of its own(?). The Regionals seemed to pick up[Cherry pick(?)] and take on the better paying routes. going long distances became problematic, and a nightmare of putting a routing together. Particularly, out in the areas of 'fly-over America.
Out here in Kansas, the urge to see other parts of the country; are the perview of a couple of Long Distance'TOUR' Operators, and some that could be called 'wildcatters'(?). The latter seem operate between large hispanic populations and up and down I-35. They seem to operate regularly and probably have scheduled published within their ridership community (?)
There may even be some new Greyhound franchises; Saw what apeared to be a fairly new coach Southbound today on I-35, that was all black, but had the famous 'running hound' on its sides. Who knows?
Local hope for some, in So. Central Kansas, is that AMTRAK will extend its Dal-FtW to OKC service North thru Wichita to Newton to connect with the SW Chief there(?) Or maybe, all the way to KC (?) Long shots, BUT the local politicians seem to blow hot and cold on that Idea? It seems to be anyone's guess.
samfp1943 JPS1 wrote the following post[in part]: Backshop "Since JPS1 said that the average coach passenger rode only 497 miles on an LD train, I doubt it. " JPS1 "...isn’t smart enough to come up with the number by himself. It can be found on Page 66 of the Amtrak Service Line Plans | FY 2018 - 2023. It is for 2017; it probably has changed little if at all..." Further, from JPS1: "...If Greyhound went away, there are several regional bus systems that could fill the void. One line that comes to mind is Peter Pan, which is based in Springfield, Massachusetts. It provides an excellent service throughout New England. Or new lines probably would popup..." Convenience and Price: [ Long time ago in another part of my life] I worked for several years, in Memphis,Tn; sleping bags. and bus freight to earn money to go to school. In the 1580's/60s, there were two major bus operators, Greyhound and Continental Trailways. In Memphis the two terminals were across the street from each other. Sort of a Hatfield and McCoy relationship; were traded some freight, back and forth, and passengers when one line did not meet their needs. Eventually, they both seemed to dry up and go away...Corporate decisions being what they were; Greyhound back then was a division of Dial [Soap?]Corp. C/T was a victim of its own(?). The Regionals seemed to pick up[Cherry pick(?)] and take on the better paying routes. going long distances became problematic, and a nightmare of putting a routing together. Particularly, out in the areas of 'fly-over America. Out here in Kansas, the urge to see other parts of the country; are the perview of a couple of Long Distance'TOUR' Operators, and some that could be called 'wildcatters'(?). The latter seem operate between large hispanic populations and up and down I-35. They seem to operate regularly and probably have scheduled published within their ridership community (?) There may even be some new Greyhound franchises; Saw what apeared to be a fairly new coach Southbound today on I-35, that was all black, but had the famous 'running hound' on its sides. Who knows? Local hope for some, in So. Central Kansas, is that AMTRAK will extend its Dal-FtW to OKC service North thru Wichita to Newton to connect with the SW Chief there(?) Or maybe, all the way to KC (?) Long shots, BUT the local politicians seem to blow hot and cold on that Idea? It seems to be anyone's guess.
Convenience and Price: [ Long time ago in another part of my life] I worked for several years, in Memphis,Tn; sleping bags. and bus freight to earn money to go to school. In the 1580's/60s, there were two major bus operators, Greyhound and Continental Trailways. In Memphis the two terminals were across the street from each other. Sort of a Hatfield and McCoy relationship; were traded some freight, back and forth, and passengers when one line did not meet their needs.
Eventually, they both seemed to dry up and go away...Corporate decisions being what they were; Greyhound back then was a division of Dial [Soap?]Corp. C/T was a victim of its own(?). The Regionals seemed to pick up[Cherry pick(?)] and take on the better paying routes. going long distances became problematic, and a nightmare of putting a routing together. Particularly, out in the areas of 'fly-over America.
Incidentally, Greyhound used to check two bags per adult ticket at no cost if you bought the highest price ticket; recently I received an e-mail note from Greyhound, telling me the Good News that I may now check three bags--if I pay about (as I recall) $10.00 each for the second and third bags.
I wish I had kept the last copy of Russell's Bus Guide that I had; there is no longer any such thing available.
Johnny
Yes, Johnny, those were some big time operators before Corporate machinations took them out of the LD Bus business.
Greyhound fielded their Scenicruisers and Super Senicruisers, while Continental Trailways had their high-powered 8V-71 and double 8V-71 Detroit Diesels versions of their Silver Eagle, and their Golden Eagles. That Golden Eagle was the Express version, and was hinged to the rear; with 'Stewardesses' who served the passengers drinks and sandwiches. They were pretty plush rides in their day. The bus bodies were made in Germany and shipped to the USA for their drivetrains. The route thru Memphis went West and East. The Silver Eagles were used on most other route than the Express Routes. They, both models were designed to get out there, and 'burn a hole in the wind'. We heard stories of automobiles that had tried to stay with the Golden Eagles and wound up blowing their gas motors up(?) Some of those buses lasted into the era of the Double Nickle. And they, like the Scenicruisers got shaggier, and shaggier as they ran out their miles. In their primes they were some pretty snertzy rides.
Here is a linked photo of one of the articulated bus version @http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Eagle_Bus
The Greyhound system eventually merged the various operating companies into one corporate entity. Trailways had some mergers of operating companies but tended to remain an association of independent operators sharing the Trailways name for marketing purposes. There were also a fair number of independent regional operations of various sizes throughout the country.
Greyhound shrank in part due to corporate machinations but both national systems and some of the regionals shrank due to de-reg in the 1980's.
ah, yes, the good old days when there were several Greyhound lines and several Trailways lines. At one time or another, I rode on three different Greyhound lines--Atlantic, Teche, and Southeastern. And, I rode on two different Trailways lines whose names I remember--Carolina Scenic Stages and Queen City (Charlotte, N.C.) Trailways--and another one whose name I do not recall--Continental?
Victrola1Who killed the long distance passenger bus?
While other posters have pointed out various issues, I think the main reason is the same as is true for trains: One can fly much faster and in most cases, cheaper, than taking a train or bus.
And as also pointed out, even smaller cities have connecting flights, directly competing with bus service.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
Two more changes from the old days. You now buy a ticket for a particular trip--and there are no more ighway flag stops on Greyhound--I benefited from such a stop one night when it seemed that no one was going to stop and pick a hitchhiker up; as it was, the driver that night was one whom I had known for many years.
The last time I rode with that driver, I was going from my home town to Charlotte, When I saw who the driver was, I reached inside, took the crank for the baggage compartments and put my suitcase inside, and took the suitcase out in Charlotte.
York1... One can fly much faster and in most cases, cheaper, than taking a train or bus.
Please provide an example - in recent years I've never found cheaper airfare than bus fare. Despite California population growth the central valley towns still suffer from flightus interruptus.
I was a good customer of BoltBus (Greyhound subsidiary) but they mysteriously pulled out of Cali at the end of 2018. Very strange because they seemed to have the demographic dialed in - students, recent grads or other lower net income folks with computer savvy (you could only buy tickets online). Another company (FlixBus) popped up around the same time with very similar routes and fares .... hmmm ....
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MikeF90I was a good customer of BoltBus (Greyhound subsidiary) but they mysteriously pulled out of Cali at the end of 2018. Very strange because they seemed to have the demographic dialed in - students, recent grads or other lower net income folks with computer savvy (you could only buy tickets online). Another company (FlixBus) popped up around the same time with very similar routes and fares .... hmmm ....
Would that be collusion or obstruction?
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