daveklepperHow does customer service respond to your complaint? Other than the Texas Eagle and the Sunset, is it a problem on other Superliner trains?
Well I kind of want to ride the Empire Builder out West but the main issue holding me back is the restroom issue. Now don't get me wrong, I can tolerate some pretty nasty outhouses and you know how the toilet thing works when your in the Army......they hand you a shovel and roll of toilet paper. However, when I am paying a first class rail fare, really should get better than that.
When I tell them about the ordor which they can also smell themselves they said they will inform the conductor and the conductor will inform maintenence at our next extended stop (if it happens to be St. Louis). Maintenence does nothing usually. It's like that old LIFE CEREAL Commercial with the Mikey character "I'm not going to touch it.........you touch it.... I'm not touching it, I don't get paid enough for that".
What I would also like to know and I am curious about is why the CZ merits a special crew to keep the toilets clean. If I had to guess it is probably a specific state they traverse that has stricter compliance guidelines.
OvermodJust for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains? Would many of them rather have that money in their pocket instead of 'helping' get them the overpriced accommodations?
Wow your really optimistic about government spending going away when the train is discontinued (heh-heh). Have some news for you though......the subsidy does not end when the passenger train is discontinued. In most cases they just move the subsidy over to a bus (see link below) to cover the rural area. Federal Bus subsidies to rural areas are increasing year over year.
https://onyourmarktransportation.com/rural-bus-funding/
The Federal Bus Subsidy does not necessarily fix the mobility issue because some people that can ride trains cannot ride buses because they are too fat, clausterphobic, etc. Not that I would ever argue for trains as a solution for mobility challenged individuals as I think that is rather expensive as a solution.
Though I do not agree with the opinion LD trains have seen their last days. Both liesure time as the result of automation AND retirements due to the baby boom retiring are increasing. Both those items have been a boon to the Cruise ship industry and for the Rocky Mountaineer in Western Canada. I think you could potentially launch similar service in some scenic routes of the United States with better accomodations, marketing and more ancillary packages than Amtrak offers. Throughout the civilized world there are private LD passenger rail operators even in some of Africa's poorest countries, all you need to do is Google or maybe start a new thread on them. They all use the land cruise model though.
How does customer service respond to your complaint?
Other than the Texas Eagle and the Sunset, is it a problem on other Superliner trains?
DeggestyThis is interesting; I have ridden in a room H on the California Zephyr several times, and I never noticed such an odor. Is it a problem peculiar to the Sunset; are other trains afflicted with it?
I read somewhere based in Emeryville, CA Amtrak has a bathroom cleaning crew that rides along with the Zephyr. Don't ask me why that is or why their only base is in Emeryville, CA. Another bizarre Amtrak factoid.
This is actually the Texas Eagle and the restroom smell is an issue when I ride it on the Holidays the last 2-3 times I have ridden it. Doesn't matter which direction I ride. In this specific case on the Southbound run the Sleeper was delivered to the Texas Eagle in Chicago with dirty restrooms.
It had been an issue on a Northbound Texas Eagle train that originated in LA because they did not empty the retention tanks (wherever they do that prior to Dallas......my hypothesis is San Antonio). So yes one of the pitfalls of the Texas Eagle is the smelly restrooms, sometimes the restroom is clean other than the toilet bowl but that is enough to stink up the restroom and part of the downstairs.
And also see Malcolm Kent's blog on visiting Big Bend National Park regarding geographical lessons.
But it did serve your parents' needs, and we should work to improve it so that it will serve yours as well.
A few commnents: my parents, who are near 90 decided to go to California. They flew out with my sister to help them. They took Amtrak back and used one of the lower level handicap accessible rooms. They HATED flying, and enjoyed their return trip.
I will not fly unless I have to get somewhere fast. My wife is handicapped and we travel by truck and travel trailer. Getting her through the flying process is hard on her and isn't so easy for me either. We have not tried Amtrak for years, it rarely goes where we go.
All that said, Amtrak as it currently exists does not seem to be a well run operation and is not a good use of tax dollars, and I hate having to admit that. I think there is a place for rail based transportation, and a place for subsidizing transportation for those who need it, but we are not getting it done now.
PR
CMStPnP daveklepper But most of all, there are people who need the service if their mobility is not to be impaired. Amtrak went before Congress and testified they carry a lot of impaired people on their rural routes. I have to confess I have not seen any and I would pity anyone that gets stuck in the Amtrak lower level handicapped room as it typically smells like an open sewer. Though it is the largest room on the Superliner sleeping car. Just do not understand how Amtrak does not see that odor as an issue. Replace the worn rubber gaskets or use an automatic timed aeresol if you have to that neutralizes the smell but damn......do something about it.
daveklepper But most of all, there are people who need the service if their mobility is not to be impaired.
Amtrak went before Congress and testified they carry a lot of impaired people on their rural routes. I have to confess I have not seen any and I would pity anyone that gets stuck in the Amtrak lower level handicapped room as it typically smells like an open sewer. Though it is the largest room on the Superliner sleeping car. Just do not understand how Amtrak does not see that odor as an issue. Replace the worn rubber gaskets or use an automatic timed aeresol if you have to that neutralizes the smell but damn......do something about it.
Johnny
daveklepperBut most of all, there are people who need the service if their mobility is not to be impaired.
Crossing the Huey Long Bridge, entering or leaving New Orlealns helps teach Geography. Ditto crossing the Mississippi on the CZ, SWC. or TE. Dito going up the Hudson on Empire Service or LSL or ADarondak. And along Lake Champlain on the latter. The Barenness of the desert stretches seen in daylight on the SSL.
But most of all, there are people who need the service if their mobility is not to be impaired.
Overmod Just for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains?
The average operating subsidy per long-distance passenger in FY17 was $106 based on total revenues or $113 based on ticket revenues. It would be slightly higher if depreciation, interest, and miscellaneous items were included, but Amtrak does not say what percentage of these items are allocable to the long-distance trains or any of its trains.
The average subsidy per passenger mile for the long-distance trains in FY17 was 19 cents on total revenues or 20 cents on ticket revenues.
Assuming 75 percent of Amtrak’s depreciation, interest, and miscellaneous expenses are allocable to the NEC, with the remainder split evenly between the long-distance and state supported trains, the average subsidy per passenger mile for the long-distance trains would have been 23 cents.
In FY17 the average operating subsidy per passenger mile for the Sunset Limited was 45 cents. So, a passenger riding from New Orleans to LAX would have received indirectly a subsidy of $897.75. From Benson, AZ to LAX the typical operating subsidy would have been $248.40. Benson is supposedly one of those communities that depends more heavily on Amtrak’s long-distance trains than the end points or larger intermediate communities.
According to Amtrak’s Service Line Plans FY18 – FY23, the cost recovery ratio for the long-distance trains was 52 percent in FY17 compared to 160 percent for the NEC.
According to this:
https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/aviation-policy/essential-air-service-reports
Essential Air Service subsidy is capped at $200 per passenger (excluding AK), but still is $293.6M per year.
[quote user="Brian Schmidt"]
Atlanta-New Orleans weekday'Crescent' shutdown also set to begin
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/01/sunset-limited-reduced-to-twice-weekly-service-for-seven-weeks-beginning-jan-20
Overmod daveklepper A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book. If your definition of 'geography' is the backside of much of the towns and industrial areas of America. With much of the scenic 'other' often being passed at night. Just for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains? Would many of them rather have that money in their pocket instead of 'helping' get them the overpriced accommodations?
daveklepper A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
If your definition of 'geography' is the backside of much of the towns and industrial areas of America. With much of the scenic 'other' often being passed at night.
Just for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains? Would many of them rather have that money in their pocket instead of 'helping' get them the overpriced accommodations?
Perhaps our resident accountancy professional could calculate that? My guess - just for giggles - is that giving that amount to each passenger would allow them to fly in business class to their desired destination. Throw in a TSA-Pre so they can navigate airport security more easily, the needed cab/limo rides and a bottle of their favorite beverage and you've got one happy camper.
daveklepperA trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
You can read about thr Sahara desert in geography books, but seeing it first-hand completes the lesson. Similarly with the USA's Southwest. And most people would rather complete that part of the lesson from inside an air-conditioned passenger-train car than while concentrating on driving safely, trying to look down from an airplane and seldom succeeding or from a bus.
It is not a waste of resources for the people that need the service. Theatres and concrt halls don't earn income from handicapped access facilities and hard-of-hearing listening systems, and their expense is born by all patrons just for the 1% or 2% that use them.
daveklepper I accept the facts you present but not the direct insult of your last sentence. Regarding your facts, you might win on cost comparisons of total Amtrak subsidy (including state payments) and total National Park budget ratioed to patronage and similarly with total of all municipal libary budgets. Possibly you do not. Where you don't win is that law-makers apparently represent the democratic wishes of most Americans to subsidize a train they just might use some day. And despite the continual shouting of people like you and the CATO Institute about wastefulness.
I accept the facts you present but not the direct insult of your last sentence.
Regarding your facts, you might win on cost comparisons of total Amtrak subsidy (including state payments) and total National Park budget ratioed to patronage and similarly with total of all municipal libary budgets. Possibly you do not.
Where you don't win is that law-makers apparently represent the democratic wishes of most Americans to subsidize a train they just might use some day. And despite the continual shouting of people like you and the CATO Institute about wastefulness.
To compare riding on a train to the study of geography is absurd, and you should know that. For you to compare the social value of a subsidized land cruise with literacy is worse than absurd.
I don't have any data (neither do you, BTW) but to confound Congressional voting to continue giving a budget for Amtrak as a whole with the specific wishes of the public to run LD trains (I won't call them services) is simply a grossly erroroneous conclusion.
I believe strongly in fast, frequent, modern passenger rail service where it makes sense. Currently, that would be routes under ~500 miles/7 hrs., though the disatnces should become longer as the average speeds increase. Don't equate my views with rightist lobby group like Cato. I share nothing in common with it except seeing LD route as a waste of passenger rail transportation resources.
alphasalphas wrote the following post 12 hours ago: Comparing Amtrak to the USA National Park system is way over the top. The Parks & Monuments are for historical, recreational, and enjoyment purposes and are there for everyone to enjoy. I don't know the attendance total for all the National Parks & Monuments [and some of them don't have head counts due to their open boundaries] but I'd bet the total passengers on Amtrak long distance trains is insignificant compared to it.
NPS News Release: February 28, 2018
"The National Park Service (NPS) announced 330,882,751 recreation visits in 2017."
(ALA) "There were 1.5 billion in-person visits to public libraries across the United States in FY 2013."
Meanwhile, in FY 2017, Amtrak long distance ridership was 4.6 million.Justifying LD serices as a geography leeson is an insult to geography as a discipline.
Tell me exactly why long distance trains are not for everyone to enjoy? I don't know of any discrimination as to who can or cannot buy a ticket.
And certainly a ride on any of them should provide recreation and enjoyment. If it does not, then there is undoubtadly and equipment, dispatching, or persnell problem, or a combination, which must be fixed.
A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
When you fly you miss the geography lesson.
Comparing Amtrak to the USA National Park system is way over the top. The Parks & Monuments are for historical, recreational, and enjoyment purposes and are there for everyone to enjoy. I don't know the attendance total for all the National Parks & Monuments [and some of them don't have head counts due to their open boundaries] but I'd bet the total passengers on Amtrak long distance trains is insignificant compared to it.
You keep dwelling on Amtrak's sleeper service. The average senior citizen in the US can't aford to use it. That doesn't mean there aren't a good number of us that can but I suspect that most of them are like me in that my savings using Southwest Air vs. Amtrak sleeper for a round trip pays for many nights in my tourist destination lodging.
Charlie, if you question my subsidy figures, please tell me what you think they should be. And where do you obtain the notion that NE residents have a higher ratio of paying taxes to the Feds and receiving less in return than Texans?
What you say about ridership is true, but if you were to take a pole of San Anonio residents about how much per taxpayer Amtrak costs them each year, I believe most would wish to continue the subsidy, rather than lose the skelital service they get. "I want the train to be around in case I ever need or want to use it."
And what complaints are concerning long distance trains and their subsidies could b said about municipal libraries and Nationsl Parks.
Regarding comfort, the least comfortable sleeping-car accomodations for me were single sleepercoach rooms. But I was glad to use them. Even though the mattrices in upper and lower berths in old section sleepers were better.
Wait, traveling second class "Couchette" in Europe was not as good as sleepercoaches.
Brian Schmidt Atlanta-New Orleans weekday'Crescent' shutdown also set to begin http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/01/sunset-limited-reduced-to-twice-weekly-service-for-seven-weeks-beginning-jan-20
The Crescent has been doing this every winter for at least a decade. Program track work between between Atlanta and NOL single track, M-Th, during daylight. Freight trains have their schedules shifted to avoid the work. Shifting Crescent means extra crews that don't exist and inability to flip train in NOL overnight. Very little ridership south of Atlanta in the winter in any event.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
daveklepper The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly.......
The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly.......
According to the U.S. Census Bureau the median family income in Texas is $57,051. For most of the communities between San Antonio and El Paso that are stops for the Sunset Limited, or near stops that impaired people might use, the median family income is approximately $40,000 to $45,000 per year.
According to Amtrak's figures, the median income of its sleeping car passengers in FY17 was $102,000; the median income of its coach passengers on the long-distance trains was $67,000.
As per these figures, most impaired people in Texas, especially those along the route of the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and El Paso, could not afford the handicapped room. So, they would have to ride in a coach.
Irrespective of the cause, most impaired people are not going to be comfortable spending long hours in an Amtrak coach, especially if they have to get on or off the train in the middle of the night.
The reason Amtrak can shrink the schedule of the Sunset Limited for six weeks or substitute buses for the Crescent is because these trains are not critical for passenger transport in the areas that they serve.
alphas All the elderly I know as well as myself would rather fly for a few hours instead of spending many hours riding Amtrak. To go see my 2 children requires either a 30 hour or 48 hour Amtrak trip vs. 2 1/4 and 3 1/4 hour plane trips sitting on Southwest seats that aren't that different from Amtrak coach. I've found the Southwest senior fares to be less than Amtrak's coach fares. As for Amtrak meals, many seniors have dietary needs and Amtrak food choices are a real problem. Flying somewhere in only a few hours eliminates the meal problem.
All the elderly I know as well as myself would rather fly for a few hours instead of spending many hours riding Amtrak. To go see my 2 children requires either a 30 hour or 48 hour Amtrak trip vs. 2 1/4 and 3 1/4 hour plane trips sitting on Southwest seats that aren't that different from Amtrak coach. I've found the Southwest senior fares to be less than Amtrak's coach fares. As for Amtrak meals, many seniors have dietary needs and Amtrak food choices are a real problem. Flying somewhere in only a few hours eliminates the meal problem.
My experience is the same. Flying to Eugene, Oregon to visit relatives is not the quickest of flights, requiring a change of planes and thus taking seven to eight hours and costing at least $237 hours in early February. However, it sure beats taking the train, which these days might get delayed by many hours in the mountains. Even with no delays, it takes 50-72 hours with a change of trains for a similar fare - in coach. No thanks.
daveklepper What could happen, however, is that the San Antonio user of the Sunset could demand that if he or she doesn't get a subsidy, then the NEC should be completely supported by the specific states served.
Your argument is not supported by facts. In 2017, only there were only 57,048 boarding and alightings on Amtrak in San Antonio. That means only 28,524 people there used the "service" out of a metro population of 2,473,974. In other words, most people there could not care less about whether Amtrak serves them or folks in the NEC. And where did you obtain the $30K figure? Did you take in to account the fact that residents in various states in the NEC pay far more in taxes into the federal government than they receive back?
The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly, and certainly can meet the needs of anyone that is far from being a "spring chicken." And the car attendant's Job is to meet that person's reasonable needs, including bringing food from the diner. I never found any Amtrak bed so uncomfortable that sleep was deprived and always infinitely more comfortable than airline or bus seat.
I cannot imagene a tourist from the Northeast USA or Canada or from overseas, who wishes to see the landscape of the great southwest, with or without stopovers, being able to fulfill this wish without first-class train service.
And the elderly or handicapped along the route may use the Sunset Limited three or four times a year, and be subsidized yearly by as much as $3,000.of the taxpayers money in making these three or four trips. Maybe as much as $6,000!
But the business traveler between Providence and Philadelphia who makes twice weekly round trips probable is subsidized by as much as $30,000 a year if all costs were figured. True, his or her subsidy is necessitated by the road, street, and airport congestion that would occur if the NEC service were not available, which is not true of the Amtrak service subsidy that the resident of San Antonio who uses the Sunset received. What could happen, however, is that the San Antonio user of the Sunset could demand that if he or she doesn't get a subsidy, then the NEC should be completely supported by the specific states served.
charlie hebdoAmtrak has nothing to do with the 7-week hiatus. It is the Class 1 BNSF's mauntenance that is the reason.
If your talking about the Sunset Limited, I am pretty sure the issue is the Union Pacific's maintenance window not with the BNSF.
Additionally, Union Pacific gave Amtrak a choice, pay for the extra costs and Union Pacific crews will work after dark using spotlights and will protect the current schedule of the train. Amtrak was unwilling to pay to protect the schedule. Hence you have the current plan outlined in the news article.
I think the UPRR proposal was fair, the Amtrak response to it just begs the question of why are they running the train in the first place if they cannot even afford or are unwilling to pay costs to UPRR above normal operations for seasonal parts of the year.
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