Atlanta-New Orleans weekday'Crescent' shutdown also set to begin
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/01/sunset-limited-reduced-to-twice-weekly-service-for-seven-weeks-beginning-jan-20
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
Twice weekly for the Sunset Limited! Very few people in the communities served will even notice.
The Sunset Limited may have been sold out on January 4th, but it probably was due to the heavy holiday period traffic. For FY18 the average load factor for the Sunset Lmited was 49%.
It was on-time at its end points an average of 49.4% in FY18, which was down from 68.3% in FY17.
In FY18 the Sunset Limited had an adjusted operating loss of $35.1 million compared to $34.8 million in FY17.
Amtrak should use this opportunity to discontinue the Sunset Limited. It is not a serious passenger transportation option for all but a tiny fraction of the population.
Wonder why it could have been run a different day keeping it 3 days a week ?
I remember that before the hurricane ended the New Orleans to Jacksonville part, someone in Bush's DOT stated that the Federal subsidy for someone traveling on it one-way coast-to-coast was something like $930. He went on to say that it would be way cheaper for Amtrak to take the paid coach fair, contribute $100-$200, and buy the coach passenger an airline ticket.
alphas I remember that before the hurricane ended the New Orleans to Jacksonville part, someone in Bush's DOT stated that the Federal subsidy for someone traveling on it one-way coast-to-coast was something like $930. He went on to say that it would be way cheaper for Amtrak to take the paid coach fair, contribute $100-$200, and buy the coach passenger an airline ticket.
In FY17 the average subsidy for a Sunset Limited passenger was 45 cents per passenger mile.
The distance from New Orleans to LAX is 1,995 miles. A passenger traveling from NO to LAX would require a subsidy of $897.75 for the rail fare alone. On top of that, assuming h/she eats in the dining car or lounge car, she gets at least five subsidized meals.
A non-stop flight on Southwest Airlines on January 30 could cost as little as $99 for a Wanna-Get-Away fare. The flight would take 4 hours, 35 minutes. United Airlines has business class fares starting at $439 for the same date. Both fares are for noon flights. Some earlier or later flights have substantially higher fares.
Only about 10 percent of the Amtrak’s long-distance passengers ride end point to end point. So, as the argument goes, the cost comparisons change dramatically if one is comparing the cost of riding the Sunset Limited from Alpine, TX to Tucson, AZ as an example. Air is out of the question or costs an arm and a leg on regional carriers. True.! But driving or taking a bus could be cheaper, and probably cost the taxpayers less.
And of course, some handicapped and elderly would be deprived of their mobility, and businesses dependent on tourism would suffer considerably, some going out of business.
daveklepperAnd of course, some handicapped and elderly would be deprived of their mobility, and businesses dependent on tourism would suffer considerably, some going out of business.
daveklepper .....and businesses dependent on tourism would suffer considerably, some going out of business.
[quote user="daveklepper"]
"And of course, some handicapped and elderly would be deprived of their mobility, and businesses dependent on tourism would suffer considerably, some going out of business."
Amtrak is just emulating its predecessor - Class 1 railroads. Make the 'service' so horrible only those in a vegatative state will consent to use it.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Instead of a chicken and egg situation this lack of service and not having at least 2 toud trips on each route 12 hours apart is turning into =======
A chicken and rotten egg situation !
BaltACD Amtrak is just emulating its predecessor - Class 1 railroads. Make the 'service' so horrible only those in a vegatative state will consent to use it.
Amtrak has nothing to do with the 7-week hiatus. It is the Class 1 BNSF's mauntenance that is the reason.
charlie hebdoAmtrak has nothing to do with the 7-week hiatus. It is the Class 1 BNSF's mauntenance that is the reason.
If your talking about the Sunset Limited, I am pretty sure the issue is the Union Pacific's maintenance window not with the BNSF.
Additionally, Union Pacific gave Amtrak a choice, pay for the extra costs and Union Pacific crews will work after dark using spotlights and will protect the current schedule of the train. Amtrak was unwilling to pay to protect the schedule. Hence you have the current plan outlined in the news article.
I think the UPRR proposal was fair, the Amtrak response to it just begs the question of why are they running the train in the first place if they cannot even afford or are unwilling to pay costs to UPRR above normal operations for seasonal parts of the year.
The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly, and certainly can meet the needs of anyone that is far from being a "spring chicken." And the car attendant's Job is to meet that person's reasonable needs, including bringing food from the diner. I never found any Amtrak bed so uncomfortable that sleep was deprived and always infinitely more comfortable than airline or bus seat.
I cannot imagene a tourist from the Northeast USA or Canada or from overseas, who wishes to see the landscape of the great southwest, with or without stopovers, being able to fulfill this wish without first-class train service.
And the elderly or handicapped along the route may use the Sunset Limited three or four times a year, and be subsidized yearly by as much as $3,000.of the taxpayers money in making these three or four trips. Maybe as much as $6,000!
But the business traveler between Providence and Philadelphia who makes twice weekly round trips probable is subsidized by as much as $30,000 a year if all costs were figured. True, his or her subsidy is necessitated by the road, street, and airport congestion that would occur if the NEC service were not available, which is not true of the Amtrak service subsidy that the resident of San Antonio who uses the Sunset received. What could happen, however, is that the San Antonio user of the Sunset could demand that if he or she doesn't get a subsidy, then the NEC should be completely supported by the specific states served.
All the elderly I know as well as myself would rather fly for a few hours instead of spending many hours riding Amtrak. To go see my 2 children requires either a 30 hour or 48 hour Amtrak trip vs. 2 1/4 and 3 1/4 hour plane trips sitting on Southwest seats that aren't that different from Amtrak coach. I've found the Southwest senior fares to be less than Amtrak's coach fares. As for Amtrak meals, many seniors have dietary needs and Amtrak food choices are a real problem. Flying somewhere in only a few hours eliminates the meal problem.
daveklepper What could happen, however, is that the San Antonio user of the Sunset could demand that if he or she doesn't get a subsidy, then the NEC should be completely supported by the specific states served.
Your argument is not supported by facts. In 2017, only there were only 57,048 boarding and alightings on Amtrak in San Antonio. That means only 28,524 people there used the "service" out of a metro population of 2,473,974. In other words, most people there could not care less about whether Amtrak serves them or folks in the NEC. And where did you obtain the $30K figure? Did you take in to account the fact that residents in various states in the NEC pay far more in taxes into the federal government than they receive back?
alphas All the elderly I know as well as myself would rather fly for a few hours instead of spending many hours riding Amtrak. To go see my 2 children requires either a 30 hour or 48 hour Amtrak trip vs. 2 1/4 and 3 1/4 hour plane trips sitting on Southwest seats that aren't that different from Amtrak coach. I've found the Southwest senior fares to be less than Amtrak's coach fares. As for Amtrak meals, many seniors have dietary needs and Amtrak food choices are a real problem. Flying somewhere in only a few hours eliminates the meal problem.
My experience is the same. Flying to Eugene, Oregon to visit relatives is not the quickest of flights, requiring a change of planes and thus taking seven to eight hours and costing at least $237 hours in early February. However, it sure beats taking the train, which these days might get delayed by many hours in the mountains. Even with no delays, it takes 50-72 hours with a change of trains for a similar fare - in coach. No thanks.
daveklepper The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly.......
The Handicapped Room in each Superliner sleeper is intended for the handiappped and the elderly.......
According to the U.S. Census Bureau the median family income in Texas is $57,051. For most of the communities between San Antonio and El Paso that are stops for the Sunset Limited, or near stops that impaired people might use, the median family income is approximately $40,000 to $45,000 per year.
According to Amtrak's figures, the median income of its sleeping car passengers in FY17 was $102,000; the median income of its coach passengers on the long-distance trains was $67,000.
As per these figures, most impaired people in Texas, especially those along the route of the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and El Paso, could not afford the handicapped room. So, they would have to ride in a coach.
Irrespective of the cause, most impaired people are not going to be comfortable spending long hours in an Amtrak coach, especially if they have to get on or off the train in the middle of the night.
The reason Amtrak can shrink the schedule of the Sunset Limited for six weeks or substitute buses for the Crescent is because these trains are not critical for passenger transport in the areas that they serve.
Brian Schmidt Atlanta-New Orleans weekday'Crescent' shutdown also set to begin http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/01/sunset-limited-reduced-to-twice-weekly-service-for-seven-weeks-beginning-jan-20
The Crescent has been doing this every winter for at least a decade. Program track work between between Atlanta and NOL single track, M-Th, during daylight. Freight trains have their schedules shifted to avoid the work. Shifting Crescent means extra crews that don't exist and inability to flip train in NOL overnight. Very little ridership south of Atlanta in the winter in any event.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Charlie, if you question my subsidy figures, please tell me what you think they should be. And where do you obtain the notion that NE residents have a higher ratio of paying taxes to the Feds and receiving less in return than Texans?
What you say about ridership is true, but if you were to take a pole of San Anonio residents about how much per taxpayer Amtrak costs them each year, I believe most would wish to continue the subsidy, rather than lose the skelital service they get. "I want the train to be around in case I ever need or want to use it."
And what complaints are concerning long distance trains and their subsidies could b said about municipal libraries and Nationsl Parks.
Regarding comfort, the least comfortable sleeping-car accomodations for me were single sleepercoach rooms. But I was glad to use them. Even though the mattrices in upper and lower berths in old section sleepers were better.
Wait, traveling second class "Couchette" in Europe was not as good as sleepercoaches.
Comparing Amtrak to the USA National Park system is way over the top. The Parks & Monuments are for historical, recreational, and enjoyment purposes and are there for everyone to enjoy. I don't know the attendance total for all the National Parks & Monuments [and some of them don't have head counts due to their open boundaries] but I'd bet the total passengers on Amtrak long distance trains is insignificant compared to it.
You keep dwelling on Amtrak's sleeper service. The average senior citizen in the US can't aford to use it. That doesn't mean there aren't a good number of us that can but I suspect that most of them are like me in that my savings using Southwest Air vs. Amtrak sleeper for a round trip pays for many nights in my tourist destination lodging.
Tell me exactly why long distance trains are not for everyone to enjoy? I don't know of any discrimination as to who can or cannot buy a ticket.
And certainly a ride on any of them should provide recreation and enjoyment. If it does not, then there is undoubtadly and equipment, dispatching, or persnell problem, or a combination, which must be fixed.
A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
When you fly you miss the geography lesson.
alphasalphas wrote the following post 12 hours ago: Comparing Amtrak to the USA National Park system is way over the top. The Parks & Monuments are for historical, recreational, and enjoyment purposes and are there for everyone to enjoy. I don't know the attendance total for all the National Parks & Monuments [and some of them don't have head counts due to their open boundaries] but I'd bet the total passengers on Amtrak long distance trains is insignificant compared to it.
NPS News Release: February 28, 2018
"The National Park Service (NPS) announced 330,882,751 recreation visits in 2017."
(ALA) "There were 1.5 billion in-person visits to public libraries across the United States in FY 2013."
Meanwhile, in FY 2017, Amtrak long distance ridership was 4.6 million.Justifying LD serices as a geography leeson is an insult to geography as a discipline.
I accept the facts you present but not the direct insult of your last sentence.
Regarding your facts, you might win on cost comparisons of total Amtrak subsidy (including state payments) and total National Park budget ratioed to patronage and similarly with total of all municipal libary budgets. Possibly you do not.
Where you don't win is that law-makers apparently represent the democratic wishes of most Americans to subsidize a train they just might use some day. And despite the continual shouting of people like you and the CATO Institute about wastefulness.
daveklepper I accept the facts you present but not the direct insult of your last sentence. Regarding your facts, you might win on cost comparisons of total Amtrak subsidy (including state payments) and total National Park budget ratioed to patronage and similarly with total of all municipal libary budgets. Possibly you do not. Where you don't win is that law-makers apparently represent the democratic wishes of most Americans to subsidize a train they just might use some day. And despite the continual shouting of people like you and the CATO Institute about wastefulness.
To compare riding on a train to the study of geography is absurd, and you should know that. For you to compare the social value of a subsidized land cruise with literacy is worse than absurd.
I don't have any data (neither do you, BTW) but to confound Congressional voting to continue giving a budget for Amtrak as a whole with the specific wishes of the public to run LD trains (I won't call them services) is simply a grossly erroroneous conclusion.
I believe strongly in fast, frequent, modern passenger rail service where it makes sense. Currently, that would be routes under ~500 miles/7 hrs., though the disatnces should become longer as the average speeds increase. Don't equate my views with rightist lobby group like Cato. I share nothing in common with it except seeing LD route as a waste of passenger rail transportation resources.
You can read about thr Sahara desert in geography books, but seeing it first-hand completes the lesson. Similarly with the USA's Southwest. And most people would rather complete that part of the lesson from inside an air-conditioned passenger-train car than while concentrating on driving safely, trying to look down from an airplane and seldom succeeding or from a bus.
It is not a waste of resources for the people that need the service. Theatres and concrt halls don't earn income from handicapped access facilities and hard-of-hearing listening systems, and their expense is born by all patrons just for the 1% or 2% that use them.
daveklepperA trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
If your definition of 'geography' is the backside of much of the towns and industrial areas of America. With much of the scenic 'other' often being passed at night.
Just for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains? Would many of them rather have that money in their pocket instead of 'helping' get them the overpriced accommodations?
Overmod daveklepper A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book. If your definition of 'geography' is the backside of much of the towns and industrial areas of America. With much of the scenic 'other' often being passed at night. Just for grins -- what is the average amount of Federal subsidy per logged rider on LD trains? Would many of them rather have that money in their pocket instead of 'helping' get them the overpriced accommodations?
daveklepper A trip on a long distance train can give a geography lesson better than any book.
Perhaps our resident accountancy professional could calculate that? My guess - just for giggles - is that giving that amount to each passenger would allow them to fly in business class to their desired destination. Throw in a TSA-Pre so they can navigate airport security more easily, the needed cab/limo rides and a bottle of their favorite beverage and you've got one happy camper.
[quote user="Brian Schmidt"]
According to this:
https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/aviation-policy/essential-air-service-reports
Essential Air Service subsidy is capped at $200 per passenger (excluding AK), but still is $293.6M per year.
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