zugmann 243129 Rail service in the 500 mile and under market is needed especially in the crowded NEC. Midtown to midtown without the hassle and expense (if you are not riding on the Acela) of airline travel. Over all i.e. NYP-WAS 'the train beats the plane'. Not arguing with you (merely playing devil's advocate) - but are all the subsidies the taxpayers give to Amtrak worth it? Why not spend the money to improve highways (which many more people use)? Attacking Amtrak because the Acela costs too much ignores a much larger issue. Deck chairs and Titanic sort of thing.
243129 Rail service in the 500 mile and under market is needed especially in the crowded NEC. Midtown to midtown without the hassle and expense (if you are not riding on the Acela) of airline travel. Over all i.e. NYP-WAS 'the train beats the plane'.
Not arguing with you (merely playing devil's advocate) - but are all the subsidies the taxpayers give to Amtrak worth it? Why not spend the money to improve highways (which many more people use)?
Attacking Amtrak because the Acela costs too much ignores a much larger issue. Deck chairs and Titanic sort of thing.
Subsiding passenger service is a given. The object is to get cars off of the highway is it not? My observation is that this can be accomplished with conventional equipment with marginal differences in running time and a more judicious use of taxpayer dollars. If it is the journey that you are interested in take a long distance train which could be 'fluffed' up with silver service etc. and run only in the summer months for an added savings of tax dollars.
OvermodI think the discussion might benefit from this article, ....... Some points raised in the comments are important, particularly the percentage of the contract amount reserved for maintenance and the use of some of the funds for station improvements.
OvermodPerhaps the arguments in the article will let y'all start discussing the points in a less contentious way -- more directed on the engineering and less on peripheral issues.
OvermodI note also Don's discussion of the refurbished HSTs in the Canterbury blerfblog post, which contains a note on their achievable speed relative to Acela.
OvermodI think the discussion might benefit from this article, .......Some points raised in the comments are important, particularly the percentage of the contract amount reserved for maintenance and the use of some of the funds for station improvements.
243129Rail service in the 500 mile and under market is needed especially in the crowded NEC. Midtown to midtown without the hassle and expense (if you are not riding on the Acela) of airline travel. Over all i.e. NYP-WAS 'the train beats the plane'.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann 243129 If you want waste your personal money go right ahead. I don't want the government wasting my tax dollars on something that is not economically feasible. Many would make that argument for Amtrak as a whole.
243129 If you want waste your personal money go right ahead. I don't want the government wasting my tax dollars on something that is not economically feasible.
Many would make that argument for Amtrak as a whole.
Rail service in the 500 mile and under market is needed especially in the crowded NEC. Midtown to midtown without the hassle and expense (if you are not riding on the Acela) of airline travel. Over all i.e. NYP-WAS 'the train beats the plane'.
243129If you want waste your personal money go right ahead. I don't want the government wasting my tax dollars on something that is not economically feasible.
The Acela Express is an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars. Billions of dollars wasted for a 20 to 30 minute savings in time? A convential train making the same stops that Acela would makes would cut into the savings even further.
If you want waste your personal money go right ahead. I don't want the government wasting my tax dollars on something that is not economically feasible.
BaltACD Euclid 243129 Let me ask you all a question. You want to travel from NYP to WAS on a week day and you are not on an expense account. The fare in the same time frame is as low as $49.00 for a Regional train and as low as $130.00 for the Acela Express. The Regional train takes 3 hours and 22 minutes to complete the journey, the Acela Express takes 2 hours and 53 minutes to complete the same journey a difference of 30 minutes in trip time. Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose? Eight out of ten would pick the $49 ride. One would pay an extra $81 for sizzle, and one would be undecided. When you market to the eschelon of customers that would not be caught dead with the 'dirty, unwashed, bargin transportation shoppers' the Acela has a viable market for its higher priced marginally faster trips. Acela keeps out the 'rif raf' and there is a serious market where this is important. Airlines still have 1st Class where the price is many times in excess of the bargin fares that the carrier offers for other seats on the same plane.
Euclid 243129 Let me ask you all a question. You want to travel from NYP to WAS on a week day and you are not on an expense account. The fare in the same time frame is as low as $49.00 for a Regional train and as low as $130.00 for the Acela Express. The Regional train takes 3 hours and 22 minutes to complete the journey, the Acela Express takes 2 hours and 53 minutes to complete the same journey a difference of 30 minutes in trip time. Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose? Eight out of ten would pick the $49 ride. One would pay an extra $81 for sizzle, and one would be undecided.
243129 Let me ask you all a question. You want to travel from NYP to WAS on a week day and you are not on an expense account. The fare in the same time frame is as low as $49.00 for a Regional train and as low as $130.00 for the Acela Express. The Regional train takes 3 hours and 22 minutes to complete the journey, the Acela Express takes 2 hours and 53 minutes to complete the same journey a difference of 30 minutes in trip time. Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose?
Let me ask you all a question.
You want to travel from NYP to WAS on a week day and you are not on an expense account. The fare in the same time frame is as low as $49.00 for a Regional train and as low as $130.00 for the Acela Express. The Regional train takes 3 hours and 22 minutes to complete the journey, the Acela Express takes 2 hours and 53 minutes to complete the same journey a difference of 30 minutes in trip time. Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose?
Eight out of ten would pick the $49 ride. One would pay an extra $81 for sizzle, and one would be undecided.
When you market to the eschelon of customers that would not be caught dead with the 'dirty, unwashed, bargin transportation shoppers' the Acela has a viable market for its higher priced marginally faster trips. Acela keeps out the 'rif raf' and there is a serious market where this is important.
Airlines still have 1st Class where the price is many times in excess of the bargin fares that the carrier offers for other seats on the same plane.
Coach travelers are riff-raff?
charlie hebdoI presented accurate data regarding the population in the NEC, aka the BOWASH Megalopolis, as well as the increases in ridership post-Acela and the revenue generated.
To quote Sir Winston Churchill; "Statistics are like a drunk with a lampost: used more for support than illumination".
charlie hebdo I am not going to debate with people who make imperious statements without any data or other factual information to back them up.
"Factual information"? Have you driven on Interstate 95 between Boston and Washington lately?
Does the enormous expense of purchasing and maintaining trainsets which have never and will never accomplish what they were advertised("sizzle") to do justify spending our tax dollars in this manner? The taxpayer is being bamboozled.
True high speed, meaning more than a 20-30 minute difference, this due to Acela making less stops, will not be achieved without a dedicated ROW.
Balt is right. Last year, I rode from Washington to Boston and back on Acela trains, jsut to see how it was. I did not pay close attention to the other passengers in first class, but I do not recall seeing anyone who was not dressed in business attire. I cannot write of the business class passengers, for I did not leave the car I was in. Traveling business on the other trains, I have seen many people in less formal dress.
I was not favorably impressed by the meals--breakfast, lunch, or the evening meal; the Canadian VIA 1 service my wife and I used had much better meals (iour last trip on VIA 1 was nine years ago). The Tourist service on the Jasper-Prince Rupert train, four years ago, had meal service comparable to that of the VIA 1 we had.
Johnny
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
zugmann 243129 Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose? Yet the Acelas don't run empty. So somebody chooses them. My boss drives an Audi A8. A ford taurus would have been cheaper, yet some people choose to pay more for things that are a bit nicer. So goes the Acela. Trying to fit the "travelling public" in one bucket isn't the most accurate way to go about this. I mean it would probably make more sense to debate whether Amtrak should be in the business of offering first class amenities to begin with, but that argument can reflect back on the whole private varnish debate.
243129 Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose?
Yet the Acelas don't run empty.
So somebody chooses them. My boss drives an Audi A8. A ford taurus would have been cheaper, yet some people choose to pay more for things that are a bit nicer. So goes the Acela. Trying to fit the "travelling public" in one bucket isn't the most accurate way to go about this.
I mean it would probably make more sense to debate whether Amtrak should be in the business of offering first class amenities to begin with, but that argument can reflect back on the whole private varnish debate.
I presented accurate data regarding the population in the NEC, aka the BOWASH Megalopolis, as well as the increases in ridership post-Acela and the revenue generated. This should have settled the matter. I am not going to debate with people who make imperious statements without any data or other factual information to back them up. I think the time has long since past to recognize the need to ignore his pronouncements and move on. Acela is simply one of the rare success stories in Amtrak's otherwise dismal history.
243129As I stated in another post the train beats the plane midtown to midtown. No competition there.
243129No, the 20 minutes are not worth the money. The Acela did not create the market, the market was there due to an aging Interstate and population surge in the northeast.
Acela Express ridership was 3.442 million, Regional was 8.570 million.
According to Amtrak’s Five Year Plan 39% of all Acela Express riders are not on business travel or commuting. On Regional trains 68% account for for the same group. That means 1.3416 million Acela riders and 5.8276 million Regional riders are not business travelers or commuters.
The share of this group is 18.7% on the Acela Express if all commuters are travelling on an expense account. If not all do the percentage rises.
Of all NEC Amtrak travelers, 29% use the Acela Express. They produce 48% of NEC’s total operational revenue.
Amtrak needs the Acela Express and the travelers apparently too. Regards, Volker
243129Presented to the traveling public in this manner which do you think they would choose?
blue streak 1Overmod. Any chance you can give us a link to the other sections of your posted link ?
On the system I'm currently using (a HP laptop running Firefox on Windows 10 latest build) all the links in Aron Levy's blog map directly to the relevant content, some of which automatically downloads due to my default settings on how to handle PDF content (I don't like reading it directly in the browser).
Specifically what do you want to read that doesn't come up when you click? I can post the URLs directly if you tell me (here or by PM) what they are.
charlie hebdo found a accurate numbers for the Northeast (BOWASH) Megalopolis 49.6 million people (2000 ) 52.3 million in 2010 and projects to 58.4 mil. in 2025. So for 2018 a good estimate would be ~55.4 million. That works out to a growth of 5.8 million over the 18 years, a total growth of 11.1% or an average of 0.617% per year. This is hardly a "population surge" by any defintion.
Benjamin Disraeli, allegedly said there were “three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics”
charlie hebdoAdditionally, beyond its contribution to a the surge in ridership, Acela accounted for 25% of Amtrak's total revenue in 2016 because the public is willing to pay more for marginally shorter times and greater comfort in riding vs that experienced in Amtubes. It's not just the amentities.
So is the outlay of an enormous amount of tax dollars for "marginally shorter" travel time a judicious use of taxpayers' funds?
"greater comfort in riding vs that experienced in Amtubes."
That would not qualify as an amenity?
Overmod I think the discussion might benefit from this article, which I found while looking up references to the Hitachi trains mentioned in Don Oltmann's Canterbury blog post (which has other observations I think are highly relevant to this thread).
I think the discussion might benefit from this article, which I found while looking up references to the Hitachi trains mentioned in Don Oltmann's Canterbury blog post (which has other observations I think are highly relevant to this thread).
Overmod. Any chance you can give us a link to the other sections of your posted link ? Found that very enlighting !
I think the discussion might benefit from this article, which I found while looking up references to the Hitachi trains mentioned in Don Oltmann's Canterbury blog post (which has other observations I think are highly relevant to this thread). Some points raised in the comments are important, particularly the percentage of the contract amount reserved for maintenance and the use of some of the funds for station improvements. Perhaps the arguments in the article will let y'all start discussing the points in a less contentious way -- more directed on the engineering and less on peripheral issues.
I note also Don's discussion of the refurbished HSTs in the Canterbury blerfblog post, which contains a note on their achievable speed relative to Acela. (I thought it was gently amusing that Don called the Deltic a truly ancient locomotive when it is less than 15 years older than the HSTs - 1961 vs. 1975) Here is a firsthand illustration of what could be achieved with rebuilding older equipment; yes, there would need to be some 'sizzle' developed for them but that's been a bit overdue for "regional" services since the misguided Acela branding was removed from them a decade or so ago.
BaltACDLike it or not, advertising lubricates the economic engine and keeps things moving, including Amtrak.
The NEC sells itself.
243129 BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Marketers sell the sizzle, not just the steak. NEC Regionals are steak, Acela is sizzle. Acela II will be fresh sizzle to sell. The NEC does not need "sizzle" nor Acela. The market is there thanks to our outdated interstate system and population surge in the northeast. The train beats the plane NYP-WAS midtown to midtown and sells itself without the glitz and "sizzle" which could be added to the conventional fleet with the savings realized from not purchasing Gen 2 'white elephants'. Bring back the heavyweight Congressional with K-4's and Manhatten Transfer along with the Merchants Limited and NH's I-5 Hudsons! - they will have Firemen.[/sarcasm] Any product on the market today needs to be sold - selling requires sizzle. Fifteen+ year old products need more more sizzle, 40 year old products can't lead any marketing campaign. Once again the imperious attitude returns. For reasons previously stated NEC 'sells' itself.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD Marketers sell the sizzle, not just the steak. NEC Regionals are steak, Acela is sizzle. Acela II will be fresh sizzle to sell. The NEC does not need "sizzle" nor Acela. The market is there thanks to our outdated interstate system and population surge in the northeast. The train beats the plane NYP-WAS midtown to midtown and sells itself without the glitz and "sizzle" which could be added to the conventional fleet with the savings realized from not purchasing Gen 2 'white elephants'. Bring back the heavyweight Congressional with K-4's and Manhatten Transfer along with the Merchants Limited and NH's I-5 Hudsons! - they will have Firemen.[/sarcasm] Any product on the market today needs to be sold - selling requires sizzle. Fifteen+ year old products need more more sizzle, 40 year old products can't lead any marketing campaign.
243129 BaltACD Marketers sell the sizzle, not just the steak. NEC Regionals are steak, Acela is sizzle. Acela II will be fresh sizzle to sell. The NEC does not need "sizzle" nor Acela. The market is there thanks to our outdated interstate system and population surge in the northeast. The train beats the plane NYP-WAS midtown to midtown and sells itself without the glitz and "sizzle" which could be added to the conventional fleet with the savings realized from not purchasing Gen 2 'white elephants'.
BaltACD Marketers sell the sizzle, not just the steak. NEC Regionals are steak, Acela is sizzle. Acela II will be fresh sizzle to sell.
Marketers sell the sizzle, not just the steak. NEC Regionals are steak, Acela is sizzle. Acela II will be fresh sizzle to sell.
The NEC does not need "sizzle" nor Acela. The market is there thanks to our outdated interstate system and population surge in the northeast. The train beats the plane NYP-WAS midtown to midtown and sells itself without the glitz and "sizzle" which could be added to the conventional fleet with the savings realized from not purchasing Gen 2 'white elephants'.
Bring back the heavyweight Congressional with K-4's and Manhatten Transfer along with the Merchants Limited and NH's I-5 Hudsons! - they will have Firemen.[/sarcasm]
Any product on the market today needs to be sold - selling requires sizzle. Fifteen+ year old products need more more sizzle, 40 year old products can't lead any marketing campaign.
Once again the imperious attitude returns.
For reasons previously stated NEC 'sells' itself.
Nothing sells itself, including you and your own imperious attitude.
If things 'sold themselves' there would not be 4 different advertisments on this very page (Loram, Cato Institute, Newchic, North Platte Rail Day), let alone 5 minute of TV ads for about every 8 minutes of TV show. If you developed a new and improved Tide laundry detergent how would anyone know if you only advertised it a Tide - the same old same old. Like it or not, advertising lubricates the economic engine and keeps things moving, including Amtrak.
To add to the previous - why else would people spend the extra coin for Acela? 15 minute better run time? I doubt it.
243129 The Acela did not create the market, the market was there due to an aging Interstate and population surge in the northeast.
Sounds like your opinion, unless you have sources to back it up. I'm sure many others would believe the opposite.
243129The Acela did not create the market, the market was there due to an aging Interstate and population surge in the northeast.
I found a accurate numbers for the Northeast (BOWASH) Megalopolis 49.6 million people (2000 ) 52.3 million in 2010 and projects to 58.4 mil. in 2025. So for 2018 a good estimate would be ~55.4 million. That works out to a growth of 5.8 million over the 18 years, a total growth of 11.1% or an average of 0.617% per year. This is hardly a "population surge" by any defintion.Additionally, beyond its contribution to a the surge in ridership, Acela accounted for 25% of Amtrak's total revenue in 2016 because the public is willing to pay more for marginally shorter times and greater comfort in riding vs that experienced in Amtubes. It's not just the amentities.
FACTS:
By 2005, Amtrak's share of the common-carrier market between New York and Boston had reached 40%, from 18% pre-Acela. By 2016, Acela has captured a 54% share of the combined train and air market.
Over the NYC to DC section, Acela and the Northeast Regional service captured a 75% share of air/train commuters between New York and Washington in 2011, up from 37% in 2000. One does not need to be a marketing genius to conclude that the Acela service ws responsible for much of that ridership growth. By contrast, the four CSAs that make up most of the NE megalopolis grew only 3.44% from 2010 census through 2016.
VOLKER LANDWEHRI think that is not that easy. I take the relation New York to Washington DC as reference. An Acela Express takes 2:58 hours, a Regional 3:25 hours. So the Regional, limited to 125 mph, takes 27 minutes more with just three more station stop.
What do you think the difference would be if the Regional made the same amount of stops as the Acela and vice versa?
VOLKER LANDWEHRSo Acela's higher top speed allows an about 20 min better running time. Are these 20 minutes worth the money? At least they brought the NEC a 71% share of the combined rail/air traffic on the New York to Washington DC route.
No, the 20 minutes are not worth the money. The Acela did not create the market, the market was there due to an aging Interstate and population surge in the northeast. As I stated in another post the train beats the plane midtown to midtown. No competition there. The amenities are nice and can be added to the conventionals but to spend the bulk of a $2.45 BILLION 'loan' on trainsets that cannot realize their potential is wasteful.
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