243129Let me ask this. The speed limit on the highway is 30MPH, could you be arrested for going 35MPH? Are the same 'tolerances' winked at for schoolbus drivers as they are for auto drivers?
Certainly you could be arrested, or more usually given a citation. We are not arguing that point. Are you claiming that doing that 35mph on a straight piece of road with no intersections or development is unsafe as well as illegal? (That is the usual type of "fishing hole".)
As to school bus drivers since I have no connection to law enforcement I cannot make any informed judgement, just speculation as I suspect is the case for you too. If driving dangerously, especially DUI, then of course the law and employer come down heavily as they should. I know from frequent observation that intercity buses sometimes go faster (more opportunity), and I haven't seen any abnormally strict enforcement there.
But you still haven't explained why you are more tolerant of minor speeding on the highway, where you are interacting with many more drivers and vulnerable pedestrians than are behind the locomotive in the relative safety of a passenger car. It might even be that school bus you collide with!
243129Did you or did you not post on another thread that your father, who was a superintendent, 'instructed' an engineer to ignore timetable speeds in order to get the train in on time ?
Well?
cx500Certainly you could be arrested, or more usually given a citation.
Operating a train over the speed could get you fired.
cx500As to school bus drivers since I have no connection to law enforcement I cannot make any informed judgement,
Would you want your kids on a schoolbus where the driver is speeding?
cx500But you still haven't explained why you are more tolerant of minor speeding on the highway,
For the same reasons you are more tolerant.
cx500Are you claiming that doing that 35mph on a straight piece of road with no intersections or development is unsafe as well as illegal?
No just illegal. If your job was on the line you would not advocate "minor speeding"
cx500But you still haven't explained why you are more tolerant of minor speeding on the highway.
243129 For the same reasons you are more tolerant.
You are still missing the point. I am NOT, repeat NOT, more tolerant of speeding on the highway. I am equally tolerant whether on the highway or the railroad as long as it happens in an area that still maintains the same level of safety. It is you that hypocritically are trying to allege a difference. Today, yes, any speeding on the railroad could mean loss of job so on a personal level there is a difference. I have heard of one train crew receiving discipline for 42mph in a 40mph zone on a freight. From a safety perspective, however, there is no difference. It is you, and you alone, who are insisting that one is more permissable than the other. You apparently are not feeling remorseful even after admitting you have occasionally driven your car over the speed limit.
And if you remember, we were talking about a bygone era. In those far off days managers were complete railroaders. They understood what was important for safe and efficient operation and their job was to ensure it happened. Today far too many are newly minted university graduates with a quick introductory course in "Railroad 101".
What is the relevance of making an issue out of the fact that someone who speeds says that speeding is wrong?
Just because a person speeds and says it is wrong does not mean that the apparent hypocrisy of that person proves that speeding is not wrong. Yet that seems to be the case that is being made now.
The whole point about speeding being right or wrong is whether it actually is right or wrong; not whether an individual believes it is right or wrong.
The Wayback Machine
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 Operating a train over the speed could get you fired. No just illegal. If your job was on the line you would not advocate "minor speeding"
A person's willingness to break the law by speeding on the road has nothing to do with whether speeding on the railroad is a violation. Speed limits are not a moral issue decided by what speed a driver or engineer deems to be safe.
That is true today and it was true in 1950. No amount of dancing around the issue will change it.
cx500I am NOT, repeat NOT, more tolerant of speeding on the highway.
Do you exceed the speed on the highway?
cx500 It is you, and you alone, who are insisting that one is more permissable than the other. You apparently are not feeling remorseful even after admitting you have occasionally driven your car over the speed limit.
Speeding is illegal. I never said it was permissible. It happens. You are still trying to compare apples with oranges. Two totally different forms of transportation is the part you are not getting.I do not /did not speed with a train and I have exceeded the posted speed limit (not flagrantly) with an automobile. Show me someonewho has not.
I feel you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
There you have it, boys and girls, what 243129 really cares about. He doesn't care about speeding, just getting fired from his job. He'll break the law by speeding on the road but his job is more important. It's not a safety issue with him, just a job issue.
Ah another 'sniper'.
BaltACD The Wayback Machine
How cute. However, it does not mask the fact that you have avoided my question.
243129 Did you or did you not post on another thread that your father, who was a superintendent, 'instructed' an engineer to ignore timetable speeds in order to get the train in on time ?
243129Two totally different forms of transportation is the part you are not getting.I do not /did not speed with a train and I have exceeded the posted speed limit (not flagrantly) with an automobile. Show me someonewho has not.
Oh, I understand what you are claiming. For one form of transportation speeding (if not flagrant) is not a big deal while for another it is a major sin. Excuse me, but the safety hazards of both are very similar. Please explain why involving a school bus in the highway accident caused by excessive speed, and killing some kids as a result, is better than having the same fatalities in a train accident due to excessive speed.
Both occur very rarely, of course, and both are equally improbable for modest overages in suitable places, which is what we have always been talking about. Going flagrantly over the limit, as was the case in some recent derailments, is a completely different situation. Doing the same in a vehicle also often causes fatalities, and often more than just the guilty party.
As others have pointed out, the principal difference is that one (now) may result in loss of job and the other merely a monetary fine. In the past enforcement on the railroad was not as draconian. I have no quarrel with your decision to scrupulously obey only the railroad speed limit, and in today's work environment that was a wise choice. But to retroactively harshly criticise what was commonly accepted (and done safely) fifty years ago is problematic.
Exceeding a speed limit is a personal choice, nothing to do with safety in many cases, and for both modes it is completely in contravention of the law or rules. And yes, I have not always obeyed the speed limit either.
Autos were inserted into the equation and perpetuated by you for the sake of an argument. This recent discussion was about a superintendent ordering an engineer to ignore timetable speeds and get the train in on time. This is a discussion about trains, not automobiles. Why do you insist on comparing the two? I was a locomotive engineer I did my job safely and efficiently. What I do in my car is not related to my railroad career. Apples and oranges.
243129Ah another 'sniper'.Hmm
Ah yes. Another person for you to call names becasue they dare question you.
Don't worry, the sniper club is awesome (and ever growing).
zug -the original sniper!
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
243129What I do in my car is not related to my railroad career. Apples and oranges.
Execpt we have to submit a driver license check for engineer recert. So there is some overlap.
And besides - safety is a state of mind!
243129 Autos were inserted into the equation and perpetuated by you for the sake of an argument. This recent discussion was about a superintendent ordering an engineer to ignore timetable speeds and get the train in on time. This is a discussion about trains, not automobiles. Why do you insist on comparing the two? I was a locomotive engineer I did my job safely and efficiently. What I do in my car is not related to my railroad career. Apples and oranges.
As far as me being a sniper, I also find that amusing as I used to shoot in the national championships at Camp Perry and held an Expert classification. Twenty years ago, my skills were pretty close to an actual sniper's.
cx500Exceeding a speed limit is a personal choice, nothing to do with safety in many cases, and for both modes it is completely in contravention of the law or rules. And yes, I have not always obeyed the speed limit either.
I don’t understand your argument. If it is a personal choice, why do you object to a person choosing to not break the speed limit while driving a train, but choosing to break the speed limit while driving a vehicle? You seem to allow it to be a personal choice, but only if the choice is applied consistently to all modes of transportation. Why does that condition matter to you?
Euclid, it's not whether you choose to break one or the other, or neither, it's one poster trying to say that they are two entirely different things, when they aren't.
243129 BaltACD 243129 cx500 Being "ordered" is not what was happening, nor is it what we are claiming. Talk to BaltAcd about that . Never learned the finer points of leadership have you? Again the imperious attitude surfaces. Remember that as a dispatcher you sat at a desk not a throne. Did you or did you not post on another thread that your father, who was a superintendent, 'instructed' an engineer to ignore timetable speeds in order to get the train in on time ?
BaltACD 243129 cx500 Being "ordered" is not what was happening, nor is it what we are claiming. Talk to BaltAcd about that . Never learned the finer points of leadership have you?
243129 cx500 Being "ordered" is not what was happening, nor is it what we are claiming. Talk to BaltAcd about that .
cx500 Being "ordered" is not what was happening, nor is it what we are claiming.
Talk to BaltAcd about that .
Never learned the finer points of leadership have you?
Again the imperious attitude surfaces. Remember that as a dispatcher you sat at a desk not a throne.
Did you or did you not post on another thread that your father, who was a superintendent, 'instructed' an engineer to ignore timetable speeds in order to get the train in on time ?
I am awaiting your answer.
243129I am awaiting your answer.
Can we get you a magazine? Water?
zugmann 243129 I am awaiting your answer. Can we get you a magazine? Water?
243129 I am awaiting your answer.
Maybe this will help:
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Backshop Euclid, it's not whether you choose to break one or the other, or neither, it's one poster trying to say that they are two entirely different things, when they aren't.
But even if they are not entirely differnet, what is your point in disputing that issue with Joe? It seems like your point is to show that speeding to make up time on a railroad is somehow okay even though it is against the rules. But it is not okay on the road or the railroad. Just because a person breaks the rule on the road and does not break it on the railroad, it does not follow that that inconsistency proves that the rule is okay to break on the railroad. Yet that is what I hear as an incredible piece of logic to attempt to refute Joe's position that speeding to make up time as an locomotive engineer is unacceptable and wrong.
It's not anymore wrong than speeding on the highway. Although it's harder with e-logs, truck drivers in the old days had to speed or work overhours to deliver a load on time. You can choose to speed (or not) whenever and wherever you want, but speeding is speeding.
This is a railroad forum so the subject will be trains. Speeding is wrong. For a company official to ask, order, imply or insinuate to do so is grievously wrong. It is wrong now and was wrong 'then'.
Brandon Bostian and Stephen Brown were speeding because of poor training, poor supervision and poor vetting. They are victims also, victims of Amtrak's ineptitude and arrogance.
Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen.........again.
243129Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen.........again.
Such a shame more qualified and safe engineers never went into the ranks of management to fix those issues.
He's still going on and on about poor vetting, training and supervision? I wonder what some of his former co-workers would say about working with Joe, now that he's not there?
zugmann Such a shame more qualified and safe engineers never went into the ranks of management to fix those issues.
He's never given any answer to what is wrong or what he proposes other than, "poor vetting, poor training, poor supervision. A(nother) disaster waiting to happen."
Judging from some of his comments, it appears what he really wants is to bring back fireman (call them jr. engineers?) and have engineers control their vetting, training and supervision: a "plan" with many flaws, but which most of us could easily envision
243129Brandon Bostian and Stephen Brown were speeding because of poor training, poor supervision and poor vetting.
They were speeding because of poor judgment. 'Supervision' is only peripheral; when you have the 'right seat' you either have the airplane or the responsibility to delegate flight to someone else qualified. I don't really see anything in Bostian that would make 'vetting' catch him as particularly incompetent (of course I don't actually know whether he is or not, but I'll give him the benefit of a doubt because nothing he has said indicates he wasn't trying to be conscientious about operating safety in his general practice) and it's hard to picture a system that would catch Brown, who was already 'vetted' as a qualified engineer by a Class I railroad, before hire and training were complete (ay, there's the rub). That's not to say Amtrak's vetting needs improvement; I think it does, and I have some ideas not dissimilar from Joe's about how to improve it.
Which leaves training, and yes, that needs to be not so much 'improved' as thoroughly rethought, if the evolution of the Stephen Brown Affair goes as I worry it will.
Backshop It's not anymore wrong than speeding on the highway. Although it's harder with e-logs, truck drivers in the old days had to speed or work overhours to deliver a load on time. You can choose to speed (or not) whenever and wherever you want, but speeding is speeding.
Yes, speeding on a railroad is no different than speeding on a highway, and both are wrong--therefore-- speeding on a railroad is wrong.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.