BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster? So what are you detailed takes on the #188 incident - you have to have many more insights than I since it was the failure of your craft. I don' want your continual canary turds, lets have some factual insights - wow me with your experience and knowledge of operating locomotives and trains on the NEC. It is your time to shine. Yes I do have many more insights than you and they are all here in this thread. You have read this entire thread have you not? Scattered chicken scratchings. Wow us with ALL your insights NOW in a single post.
243129 BaltACD 243129 So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster? So what are you detailed takes on the #188 incident - you have to have many more insights than I since it was the failure of your craft. I don' want your continual canary turds, lets have some factual insights - wow me with your experience and knowledge of operating locomotives and trains on the NEC. It is your time to shine. Yes I do have many more insights than you and they are all here in this thread. You have read this entire thread have you not?
BaltACD 243129 So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster? So what are you detailed takes on the #188 incident - you have to have many more insights than I since it was the failure of your craft. I don' want your continual canary turds, lets have some factual insights - wow me with your experience and knowledge of operating locomotives and trains on the NEC. It is your time to shine.
243129 So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster?
So what are you detailed takes on the #188 incident - you have to have many more insights than I since it was the failure of your craft. I don' want your continual canary turds, lets have some factual insights - wow me with your experience and knowledge of operating locomotives and trains on the NEC. It is your time to shine.
Yes I do have many more insights than you and they are all here in this thread. You have read this entire thread have you not?
Scattered chicken scratchings. Wow us with ALL your insights NOW in a single post.
My thoughts, insights and reasons for Amtrak's debacles are contained in this thread and you want me to assemble them into a single post for you? Given your obvious lack of knowledge of railroad operations 'in the field' that would prove to be a waste of my time.
To borrow a charlie hebdo tactic , do your own research I am not going to do it for you.
Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine
VOLKER LANDWEHR BaltACD I read somewhere, and I could be mistaken, that the throttle on the Acela and Sprinter's operate oposite of each other. For one you push the throttle forward to increase speed in the other the throttle is pulled back toward the operator to increase speed. If this is correct, this could be confusing for the operator in a time when reflex actions are called for. Here is a link to the controls of an Acela Express: http://railworksamerica.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2189&start=45#p19725 And the controlls of a Siemens ASC-64 City Sprinter: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/515655/http://www.railpictures.net/photo/445688/Sorry they aren't as comfortable. The red handle indicates the automatic brake. The handle to the left of the piece of paper is the throttle shown in the neutral position. Forward is traction (T), backwards dynamic braking (B), I think. The reverser is the rotary handle above the throttle.Regards, Volker
BaltACD I read somewhere, and I could be mistaken, that the throttle on the Acela and Sprinter's operate oposite of each other. For one you push the throttle forward to increase speed in the other the throttle is pulled back toward the operator to increase speed. If this is correct, this could be confusing for the operator in a time when reflex actions are called for.
Here is a link to the controls of an Acela Express: http://railworksamerica.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2189&start=45#p19725
And the controlls of a Siemens ASC-64 City Sprinter: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/515655/http://www.railpictures.net/photo/445688/Sorry they aren't as comfortable. The red handle indicates the automatic brake. The handle to the left of the piece of paper is the throttle shown in the neutral position.
Forward is traction (T), backwards dynamic braking (B), I think. The reverser is the rotary handle above the throttle.Regards, Volker
Your link to the Acela control stand is grossly inaccurate. For one what is depicted as the throttle is in actuality the automatic or train brake handle.
What is depicted as "apply release" is in actuality the dynamic brake handle and to it's right is the throttle.
You should be more careful of your of your research choices as the source you have used is wrong.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDI read somewhere, and I could be mistaken, that the throttle on the Acela and Sprinter's operate oposite of each other. For one you push the throttle forward to increase speed in the other the throttle is pulled back toward the operator to increase speed. If this is correct, this could be confusing for the operator in a time when reflex actions are called for.
There have been many great comments about the accident and many issues have been raised. But let’s not lose sight of the bigger picture. The safety technology was there for 50 years and just not used to limit the speed of northbound trains approaching the curve. Amtrak didn’t heed the Metro North accident or other accidents here and abroad. Why? The FRA ordered Metro North to force safe speeds on similar curves using the ATC system. If the FRA made the order applicable to Amtrak the accident wouldn’t have happened. Why didn’t they? The NTSB investigation gave Amtrak and the FRA a free pass. We can discuss all we want about human failure and how to minimize it, but even the best of people with the best training and supervision can screw up royally.
Many people are screaming for Bostian’s blood, and most of them do not understand even the basics of railroad signaling or railroad operations.
The necessary ATC safety equipment was on the NEC locomotives and in the signaling for 50 years. It just wasn’t used until after the accident. Yes Bostian screwed up. But the technology to prevent him from screwing up was there all along but was not used. Not only should Bostian’s jury hear the truth, the victim’s and their families should also hear the truth. Those responsible at the FRA and Amtrak should also be held accountable.
Loco
243129So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster?
And as a general aside: just because some of us (well, at least me) don't buy into our retired engineer freind's "safety program" (whatever it is), doesn't mean we think Amtrak doesn't need help with their safety culture.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
And your reasons? Oh yeah: poor supervision, poor training, poor vetting. Nothing specific - just generalities.
From another site --- 80 major rules viloations this year ( FY OR CY ?) 20 stop signal viloations. That appears the lack of positive stop locations goes beyond just lack of awareness by engineers.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 Those are the causes for the disasters? You would not pass your own version of vetting! Attitude! So I ask you again. What do you think were the causes for these disasters? Overspeed for the track and train characteristics. I read somewhere, and I could be mistaken, that the throttle on the Acela and Sprinter's operate oposite of each other. For one you push the throttle forward to increase speed in the other the throttle is pulled back toward the operator to increase speed. If this is correct, this could be confusing for the operator in a time when reflex actions are called for. I have owned four daily drivers over the past 30+ years. Dodge Daytona Turbo with 5 speed manual on the floor. Jeep Cherokee automatic with the shift lever on the between seats console. Dodge Durango automatic with shift lever on the steering shaft. Ram 1500 pickup with automatic operated by a 4 position rotary switch on the dash on the right side of the steering column. In changing between the three vehicles with authmatic transmissions there were several months of 'false starts' in making a reflex action to shift the transmission. The 188 engineer operated a Acella run from New York to Washington and then was turned back with a Sprinter on #188. IF mistaken reflex was involved with throttles that operated opposite each other - all bets are off. My reading of what has been published of the #188 incidcent stated that the train was accelerating for 26 seconds before the engineer placed the train in emergency. In those 26 seconds the train accelerated 26 MPH. Nobody, including the engineer, knows what was in his head for those 26 seconds or for the period immediately preceeding them.
243129 BaltACD 243129 Those are the causes for the disasters? You would not pass your own version of vetting! Attitude! So I ask you again. What do you think were the causes for these disasters?
BaltACD 243129 Those are the causes for the disasters? You would not pass your own version of vetting! Attitude!
243129 Those are the causes for the disasters?
You would not pass your own version of vetting! Attitude!
So I ask you again. What do you think were the causes for these disasters?
Overspeed for the track and train characteristics.
I read somewhere, and I could be mistaken, that the throttle on the Acela and Sprinter's operate oposite of each other. For one you push the throttle forward to increase speed in the other the throttle is pulled back toward the operator to increase speed. If this is correct, this could be confusing for the operator in a time when reflex actions are called for.
I have owned four daily drivers over the past 30+ years. Dodge Daytona Turbo with 5 speed manual on the floor. Jeep Cherokee automatic with the shift lever on the between seats console. Dodge Durango automatic with shift lever on the steering shaft. Ram 1500 pickup with automatic operated by a 4 position rotary switch on the dash on the right side of the steering column. In changing between the three vehicles with authmatic transmissions there were several months of 'false starts' in making a reflex action to shift the transmission.
The 188 engineer operated a Acella run from New York to Washington and then was turned back with a Sprinter on #188. IF mistaken reflex was involved with throttles that operated opposite each other - all bets are off.
My reading of what has been published of the #188 incidcent stated that the train was accelerating for 26 seconds before the engineer placed the train in emergency. In those 26 seconds the train accelerated 26 MPH.
Nobody, including the engineer, knows what was in his head for those 26 seconds or for the period immediately preceeding them.
Overspeed for the track and train characteristics and "mistaken reflex"? Really???
Yes attempting to round a 50 MPH curve at 102 MPH would indicate "overspeed for the track"
"Train characteristics"??? What are those?
"mistaken reflex"?He did not noticed that he was accelerating for "26 seconds"?
So this is your take on the reasons for the #188 disaster?
I'm going to call BS on the whole "vetting" apsect. Many times from what you read, the guys involved in these incidents/accidents have exlemporary safety records. And I've known several guys, from my years of working, that got through stop signals and my jaw hit the floor. Despite the vitrol you read about them from news sources, or from people online, they were good guys with great safety records. But they made a mistake. They'll admit it. They're only human.
But to pretend that someone has some sort of psychic ability to "vet" whether someone will be a perfect engineer and never make a mistake? Please - get real. The only thing that will be accomplished with a voodoo vetting process will be big fat discrimination lawsuits when the vetters hire who they think will be the ideal engineer.
There is another non ATC accident on the NEC. The Colonial accident with CR not having ATC installed running past a stop signal. Amtrak management allowed that omission. Contributing was the removal of a split rail derail at that point that would have sent CR into the weeds.
243129Those are the causes for the disasters?
Those are the causes for the disasters?
243129 BaltACD I see that you have once again resorted to juvenile behavior. How about you 'try' to tell us the causes for these disasters.
BaltACD I see that you have once again resorted to juvenile behavior. How about you 'try' to tell us the causes for these disasters.
I see that you have once again resorted to juvenile behavior. How about you 'try' to tell us the causes for these disasters.
Vetting only goes so far - after people have been weeded out first from the hiring process, then from the training process and then the On Job Training periods - Vetting has been completed. Thereafter it is called Supervision of Employees. Supervision is an on going process that never ends unless and until the employee leaves the company be that through termination for cause, voluntary resignation or in your case, and mine, retirement.
For years, the comments about the discipline policy of NS stated that you weren't REALLY a NS Employee unless you had been terminated at least once.
BaltACD
zugmann Even the best trained, best supervised, and best vetted employee can make mistakes.
Even the best trained, best supervised, and best vetted employee can make mistakes.
I do not want to take sides, offend anyone or get into a debate. My goal is only to get factual truth out because they are trying to put Bostian in jail for the rest of his life for what appears to be an "honest mistake" that killed eight people and maimed others.
zugmann's statement quoted above is totally correct. My point is that Bostian should never been able to make the mistake because of reasons I wrote about and alluded to. In my opinion, much blame for the accident resides with Amtrak and the FRA. And the NTSB should have pointed this out, but they didn't.
243129Automated addiction. All of this points to my "triad" as one poster refers to it, poor training, poor vetting and poor supervision.
All to your personal made-up standards (based on perfect hindsight) that you never expand on. Even the best trained, best supervised, and best vetted employee can make mistakes. Then what will your next silver bullet be? I don't expect an answer, but I'll float it around for the others in this circus to ponder.
TOSZ.
daveklepper There are clearly Two!!! accidents directly attributable to removing proven safety measures and leaving a gap before and to facilitat PTC. Neither should have happened if the installation of PTC had been properly planned to insure no time gaps in safety protection occured, or reduction of such gaps to less than a full day, with direct on-the-scene management supervision to replace in one case the automatic block signalling disabled and in the earlier case the permanent speed-restriction enforcement disabled. And, yes, I did ride the front platform of enough PRR MU trains to know that the PRR system did enforce permanent speed restrictions but not temporary slow orders.
There are clearly Two!!! accidents directly attributable to removing proven safety measures and leaving a gap before and to facilitat PTC. Neither should have happened if the installation of PTC had been properly planned to insure no time gaps in safety protection occured, or reduction of such gaps to less than a full day, with direct on-the-scene management supervision to replace in one case the automatic block signalling disabled and in the earlier case the permanent speed-restriction enforcement disabled.
And, yes, I did ride the front platform of enough PRR MU trains to know that the PRR system did enforce permanent speed restrictions but not temporary slow orders.
ATC,PTC, cab signal w/speed control notwithstanding these two accidents and others could have been prevented with, yes, proper training, proper vetting and proper supervision. Three procedures in which Amtrak is seriously lacking.
Consider this, what if all the safety systems were in place at the time and failed? What would be the cause(s) of these disasters? Poor maintenance of the system you might say. That could be but what would be more glaring would be the inability of the operator to function without them. Automated addiction. All of this points to my "triad" as one poster refers to it, poor training, poor vetting and poor supervision.
VOLKER LANDWEHR LocoEngineer2000 I am hoping that some of the people on this forum will understand that while Bostian screwed up, the accident should never have been allowed to happen. Get the word out. That is what I am trying to do. From July 24, 2015.Regards, Volker
LocoEngineer2000 I am hoping that some of the people on this forum will understand that while Bostian screwed up, the accident should never have been allowed to happen. Get the word out. That is what I am trying to do.
From July 24, 2015.Regards, Volker
LocoEngineer2000I am hoping that some of the people on this forum will understand that while Bostian screwed up, the accident should never have been allowed to happen. Get the word out. That is what I am trying to do.
I think the story is not untold: http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/automatic-train-control/
Loco, I understand your frustration.
Euclid When you say the complete story of the accident needs to be told, what do you have in mind as the means to tell it?
Thanks again Euclid. I believe that we are both on the same page. After the Back Bay accident, Amtrak did not want to use the ATC train control system to limit speeds on all curves. So they decided to only limit speeds when the approach speed exceeded the overturning speed. They apparently never considered that a train might wrongly be exceeding the approach speed for any number of reasons, hence we had this accident. And the FRA let Amtrak only limit speeds on a few curves and not always in both directions.
Sadly, the ATC system had been around for more than 50 years and at the accident curve for more that 50 years. The engineer screwed up for sure. To me the real issue is why the FRA and our government funded all the improvements for trains to operate on the NEC up to 150 mph while not using the available technology to force safe speeds everywhere? Why didn't the FRA require Amtrak to provide the same safety they required of Metro North after their accident? Why didn't the NTSB fault both the FRA and Amtrak?
About your last sentence which I quoted, I am open to ideas and suggestions. I already contacted the major newspapers and they think that I do not have any new information. They don't believe or comprehend that the safety equipment to force safe speeds existed at the curve for 50 years but wasn't used. The union doesn't want to get involved or take a position because it is now a criminal case.
I am hoping that some of the people on this forum will understand that while Bostian screwed up, the accident should never have been allowed to happen. Get the word out. That is what I am trying to do.
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