Balt, I am sorry that you had that horrible experience in the New Orleans-Mobile (the TT indicated that that was the run) diner. Altogether, I ate in the diner on 33 & 34 six times (1960-1966), and the car rode smoothly each time. I do not recall the name on the car.
My only experience with a flat wheel was 15 years ago when we had seats in the Vermonter's business car from Washington to New York. I noticed the flat wheel right after we left Washington, and the car was taken out in Philadelphia. The problem was not anywhere as near as bad as the problem was in your case--but the man who provided refreshments had to pack up and hope there was a replacement in New York City.
Johnny
Deggesty oltmannd Something like this https://www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz/assets/food-menus/scenic-trains-menu.pdf would be okay for Amtrak eastern LD trains, I think. Maybe convert the kitchen of Viewliner diners into cafe counter... Don, you just reminded me of the meal service that the L&N provided on the Pan American between Cincinnati and Montgomery for a few years--a counter-lounge. I do not remember just what I ate in those, but I found the offering to be superior to what Amtrak offers in its lounge and cafe cars. Perhaps the tastes of travellers have changed in the past 50 years?
oltmannd Something like this https://www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz/assets/food-menus/scenic-trains-menu.pdf would be okay for Amtrak eastern LD trains, I think. Maybe convert the kitchen of Viewliner diners into cafe counter...
Something like this https://www.greatjourneysofnz.co.nz/assets/food-menus/scenic-trains-menu.pdf would be okay for Amtrak eastern LD trains, I think.
Maybe convert the kitchen of Viewliner diners into cafe counter...
Don, you just reminded me of the meal service that the L&N provided on the Pan American between Cincinnati and Montgomery for a few years--a counter-lounge. I do not remember just what I ate in those, but I found the offering to be superior to what Amtrak offers in its lounge and cafe cars. Perhaps the tastes of travellers have changed in the past 50 years?
On a family vacation we rode the Gulf Wind from New Orleans to Jacksonville. Had dinner in the diner shortly after departing NOLA - the car's was 'Square Key Tavern' in reality it should have been named 'Square Wheels Tavern' I have never ridden such a rough riding car (even a caboose). The only times there weren't waves in the water was when we were stopped. The car was switched out of the train at Flomaton, AL so it could be used on the breakfast run back to NOLA on the other side of the run.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Of course Amtrak could advertise their trains without diners as 'low calorie diet specials'. Don't give then ideas.
BaltACD Of course Amtrak could advertise their trains without diners as 'low calorie diet specials'.
Don't give then ideas.
BaltACDOf course Amtrak could advertise their trains without diners as 'low calorie diet specials'.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Sleeping car passengers that don't use the diner when it is included in the ticket price are just throwing money away.
Of course Amtrak could advertise their trains without diners as 'low calorie diet specials'.
I eat in dining cars because I want something better than snacks at mealtimes. I know--and I expect many others who have sleeping accomodations know--that the cost of the accomodation includes meals in the diner, and that the meals are not free. Most of those with whom I have shared tables seem to be people who are aware that they have paid for their meals when they bought their tickets or exchanged points for their tickets.
I never had any thought about asking others about their understanding of the cost of the meals.
Most Amtrak passengers ride on the NEC or State-sponsored corridors. Consequently most are riding less than 6 hours and not needing meal service. According to some "experts" on here, the bulk of Amtrak riders on LD trains are not riding from end point to end point, so even there many of the rides are under <8 hours. Additionally, the LD diners are mostly used by the sleeper passengers, perhaps only because they think the meal is free. Coach passengers only lightly use dining services, prefering the snack bar. So it seems likely that Anderson is saying who is actually using a traditional dining car service? And how many? Is that really needed?
[My error in dealing with defenders of subsidized dining cars I should have said most sleeping car passengers know they have actually already paid for the food. But that misses the point. If the meals were not a forced choice,i.e., they had to pay only if they ate, would sleeping car passengers partake of the menu? Maybe some would have some of the meals, but I doubt if they would choose all the offerings. And thus the subsidy for dining would have to be even higher, unless the actual cost were charged.]
PJS1 Samuel Johnston ........Now a Subway franchise nearby in walking distance or in station might do good for an evening meal. I ride the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Dallas 8 to 12 times a year. The Eagle has a significant dwell time in Fort Worth. A seemingly large number of veteran coach riders appear to get off the train to grab their eats at the Subway inside the Fort Worth Intermodal Transit Center.
Samuel Johnston ........Now a Subway franchise nearby in walking distance or in station might do good for an evening meal.
........Now a Subway franchise nearby in walking distance or in station might do good for an evening meal.
I ride the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Dallas 8 to 12 times a year. The Eagle has a significant dwell time in Fort Worth.
A seemingly large number of veteran coach riders appear to get off the train to grab their eats at the Subway inside the Fort Worth Intermodal Transit Center.
Meal stops!
Just like before dining cars were invented.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Probably none. Space issues with hot pizza. Now a Subway franchise nearby in walking distance or in station might do good for an evening meal. I think I did that with the Sure Late Ltd. out of Chicago in 2005, plus a visit to CVS.
I think the first time I took advantage of payng for my meals when I bought my ticket was in 1987,
Miningman Actually agree with the half of us that think discontinuing hot meal service is absurd. How it ever got to this point is absurd itself.
Actually agree with the half of us that think discontinuing hot meal service is absurd. How it ever got to this point is absurd itself.
GN_FanNo replacement crotch was necessary...it was white wine and just had to dry off. Altho it was embarrassing to walk up to the stewardess station with a wet crotch and ask for the replacement, I never noticed any smirks, laughter or anything else. And yes, it looked like I couldn't make it to the toilet in time. The joys of being 75 I guess. But then again, the alternative of making it this far is not good.
Having birthdays beats the alternative!
Miningman They give you a replacement crotch on Lufthansa? Geez that's pretty amazing! Actually agree with the half of us that think discontinuing hot meal service is absurd. How it ever got to this point is absurd itself.
They give you a replacement crotch on Lufthansa? Geez that's pretty amazing!
cfm-railThe transcontinental flights on American only had cold food. Hot meals in coach, even for a fee are not available on most airlines. Go to their web-sites and check out what is available in coach. Business class and the increasingly rare first class may have hot meals. Some transoceanic flights may still have hot meals
I'm an American expat retired in Italy and fly once a year to visit relatives in both Maine and California. I fly Lufthansa steerage between Trieste, Italy and Boston and return via Frisco to trieste. I had been taking the Lake Shore, Empire Builder, Coast Starlight to see my son in the Bay Area, but because of Richie Baby at Amtrak and his cutbacks, I'll be taking the Canadian to Vancouver instead. As for hot meals on international flights, all Lufthansa meals are hot. The arm room is horrible and the plates are plastic, but the silverware is metal and alcohol is included. The service is very good, even when you spill a glass of wine on your crotch and need a replacenment. Business class will run you $8,000 for a trip like that and a billion or so for 1st class, none of which is worth it.
I had the horrible experience of flying United out of Venice to Boston -- very late with ZERO explaination, having to wait in in a stairwell for a bus to board, starving while on board, having to pay for a glass of wine, plastic utinsels, no service, $13 for a ham and cheese sandwich, etc. it was horrible. NEVER again. And that's why I refuse to travle the LSL with cold food. Forget it Richie Baby. You can take your airline food and shove it.
V.Payne From the PDF at the link Table 1(A) / 1(B) all say "Not Available" and have for so since the data was first to have been reported.
From the PDF at the link Table 1(A) / 1(B) all say "Not Available" and have for so since the data was first to have been reported.
Who cares? The data is in the Monthly public report, as I said and using my link. All but one piece of data, the subsidy.
You didn't look at/understand the link? The data is there.
Variable cost typically requires the business to calculate it on the finance side or an outside group can construct an engineering analysis, like when they estimate how much it costs to build cell phones or cars per unit. Remember, the Legislature appropriated funds for the financial systems to do this.
However, FRA has had blank Table 1(A) and 1(B) sheets in their metrics waiting for this information, for 10 years, since PRIIA 2008.
That means Amtrak is not reporting the information as FRA is the granting agency. It is also missing from their February reports to the Legislature where it is supposed to be located.
Most of that is available monthly or can be easily calculated except for the subsidy breakdown. How do you know this info is not being provided?
Monthly report
Recall that even though "Amtrak shall" by law report short-term avoidable profit/loss for the routes yearly, they do not. Similar variable cost metrics are tracked weekly at the business I work.
So how exactly will they manage the business without knowing variable cost?
(a) Amtrak Annual Operations Report.—Not later than February 15 of each year, Amtrak shall submit to Congress a report that—
(1) for each route on which Amtrak provided intercity rail passenger transportation during the prior fiscal year, includes information on—
(A) ridership;
(B) passenger-miles;
(C) the short-term avoidable profit or loss for each passenger-mile;
(D) the revenue-to-cost ratio;
(E) revenues;
(F) the United States Government subsidy;
(G) the subsidy not provided by the United States Government; and
(H) on-time performance;
PJS1No real business would be confronted with this sort of conflict. It is an example of why the government should not be running a commercial activity.
I agree with most of your post. However, you do overgeneralize, in my opinion. The problem is Congress's micromanagement of Amtrak over its 47 years. Amtrak was set up as a quasi-public corporation but Congress started interfering with unfunded edicts almost immediately (many, many ludicrous example spring to the minds of most). Other countries have quasi-public corporations running national rail systems very successfully because they are protected from this sort of political nonsense.
You are right that is what the House called an earlier version of their rail bill.
But this text is from the House maintained US Code with annotations, based on Public Law 114-94, known as the FAST Act , which did pass at the end of 2015. I have no idea if that is considered an "error" in the US Code.
Just a remark, the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 made it through the House but never the Senate.It died in the previous congress.
Parts of it were amended to the FAST Act (Fixing America's Surface Transportation). The Food and beverage reform is Section 11207 and contains the same text as cited above.Regards, Volker
The acutal law required a plan that was to study cost cuts, efficiencies, and revenue generation activies (ie offering more meals more efficiently). Since the Viewliner diners were to have more efficient roll-on stock carts but were never allowed into service did they comply with this portion of the law? Notice as well all of this could have just been handled with revenue allocation to food service.
I find it spurious to suggest that younger adults have a greater "taste" for a cold breakfast. It seems like the "thing" to do for urban singles (including my recollection for a decade+ ago) is to go out for a "big, bad, breakfast" consisting of some hot egg dishes.
Does anybody have a copy of the "plan" that was to have been submitted to the legislature? I believe it is claimed that the occasional business plans fufill all the requirements for these submissions but they do not mention actual steps.
Perhaps that might be the angle to take... Senator do you have a copy of the plan Amtrak was to have submitted under 243?
(a) Plan.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, Amtrak shall develop and begin implementing a plan to eliminate, within 5 years of such date of enactment, the operating loss associated with providing food and beverage service on board Amtrak trains.
(b) Considerations.—In developing and implementing the plan, Amtrak shall consider a combination of cost management and revenue generation initiatives, including—
(1) scheduling optimization;
(2) on-board logistics;
(3) product development and supply chain efficiency;
(4) training, awards, and accountability;
(5) technology enhancements and process improvements; and
(6) ticket revenue allocation.
(c) Savings Clause.—Amtrak shall ensure that no Amtrak employee holding a position as of the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015 is involuntarily separated because of—
(1) the development and implementation of the plan required under subsection (a); or
(2) any other action taken by Amtrak to implement this section.
Fred Frailey got this issue right in the July 2018 issue.Have pre packaged food to eat
The transcontinental flights on American only had cold food. Hot meals in coach, even for a fee are not available on most airlines. Go to their web-sites and check out what is available in coach. Business class and the increasingly rare first class may have hot meals. Some transoceanic flights may still have hot meals.
Superb satire! You only missed one point - this will equally satisfy liberals in Congress as the current Amtrak Board is comprised largely of Obama appointees who in turn chose Mr. Anderson as Pres. & chief executioner of LD trains. (that's satire too as to which party cares about Amtrak - neither!)
aricatAlso, don't expect hot food crossing the Atlantic either. I had a chicken salad and a coke in economy LHR JFK on Delta. At least they feed you on transatlantic flights. Cold is better than nothing these days.
I will never fly Economy for a more than 2 hour flight domestically or internationally. I don't care the cost, my minimum for trans-atlantic travel is Business Class. You can do Business Class on the cheap to Europe if you know how to use CC deals and frequent traveler programs. First Class domestically on American Airlines is typically only $100 to $150 more then Coach if you buy the tickets months in advance........on most routes out of their hub in Dallas.
Next time I travel to Europe I am going to try the CUNARD Cruise line from NY to Southhampton. Always wanted to take that cruise and yell out "Ice Berg Dead Ahead" over the PA at the mid-point (heh-heh).
Unfortunately, Amtrak has been far too occupied, thanks to Congressional interferrence, with making a profit, or at least losing considerably less money. One of the major problems with that attitude is that Amtrak does not own any tracks other than the Northeast Corridor. It cannot "dictate" it's own schedules, nor can it adequately serve most of the markets it's in. The California, Michigan, and Illinois service are witnesses to that, and Texas is beginning a modified version of that between Dallas and Houston.
Amtrak has spent far too much time playing with what works in dining service, and completely failing in the word "service". The staff is usually at least accommodating, but that pales when compared to other meal services. I realize you can't stock a five star restaurant in a dining car, but the constant cuts in meal quality and staff are not the answer either. They've proven that with the Texas Eagle and the "imported" box meals between Ft. Worth and San Antonio.
The United States needs to get serious about rail transportation, provide adequate funding to compare with highways and airports and air traffic control, and then build a workable system with realistic scheduling to provide "service". That's the ONLY solution to keep Amtrak from continuing as a "Congressional Play Toy".
The politicians in Britain are still trying to mess with the current Great Western franchise created after privaization and split in into two parts. I would like to ask Brunel's statue in Paddington about what he thinks about what they are doing to the once Great Western Railway before it became British Railways in 1948. It isn't privatization at all, but government regulation to the maxunder the guise of private enterprize. If you want to eat something on a British train; good luck. The trains into the mainline London stations are very crowded and you will lose your seat if you venture to the buffet. Also, don't expect hot food crossing the Atlantic either. I had a chicken salad and a coke in economy LHR JFK on Delta. At least they feed you on transatlantic flights. Cold is better than nothing these days.
This morning I was watching a website showing the western approach to CUS and the yards. A consist included a C&O private car, 2 vielinwer sleepers, a viewliner diner!!!, amfleet cafee, several coaches, vieliner baggage and one Amtrak locomotive. Was this the Lake Shore Limited consist taht arrived in Chicago this morning?
Mel Hazen; Jax, FL Ride Amtrak. It's the only way to fly!!!
SD70DudePrivatization and de-regulation do not work for everything, for a railroad example go across the pond and ask how well the privatization of British Rail went.
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It's the one size fits all notion of econ., that the market is the answer to everything. Correctly applied, markets are efficient. The trouble is when they are misapplied. It's probably why mixed economies seem best.
SD70DudeAlberta did the same thing about 20 years ago. It fell flat on its face up here and that action remains very unpopular. Instead of stabilizing prices and guaranteeing supply, prices rose dramatically and then shot up and down repeatedly. Supply shortages continued, and it was eventually discovered that some power producers had taken advantage of the situation to keep prices even higher by keeping the supply low, and choosing not to bring in electricity from British Columbia when units went down for maintenance. For most of the 2000s Albertans "enjoyed" the highest electricity prices in Canada. More recently steps have been taken to partially re-regulate our market, and that effort is proving popular. Privatization and de-regulation do not work for everything, for a railroad example go across the pond and ask how well the privatization of British Rail went.
Texas has it's own statewide electrical grid and is largely independent of the national grid.......and last I checked a surplus of electricity. My personal opinion is they misjudged growth and over built power plants. There are a number of powerplants that look fairly new that have been shutdown or idled across the DFW metro area. Some of them were supplied by rail even though they burned Oil.
PJS1 Texas deregulated the electricity market straight out of the chute. Bingo! All the customers in the regulated service areas, except for those prisioners of public power and co-ops, about 15 percent of Texans, were given the green light at essentially the same time.
Texas deregulated the electricity market straight out of the chute. Bingo! All the customers in the regulated service areas, except for those prisioners of public power and co-ops, about 15 percent of Texans, were given the green light at essentially the same time.
Alberta did the same thing about 20 years ago. It fell flat on its face up here and that action remains very unpopular.
Instead of stabilizing prices and guaranteeing supply, prices rose dramatically and then shot up and down repeatedly. Supply shortages continued, and it was eventually discovered that some power producers had taken advantage of the situation to keep prices even higher by keeping the supply low, and choosing not to bring in electricity from British Columbia when units went down for maintenance. For most of the 2000s Albertans "enjoyed" the highest electricity prices in Canada.
More recently steps have been taken to partially re-regulate our market, and that effort is proving popular.
Privatization and de-regulation do not work for everything, for a railroad example go across the pond and ask how well the privatization of British Rail went.
PJS1Here is a link to the new menu being introducted on the NEC: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Corridor-Cafe-Menu-061318.pdf
Non-alcoholic drink selection kind of sucks. If you're going to carry Lipton Pure Leaf tea, at least have a few flavors. Maybe they will in practice. Same with the cold starbucks coffee.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
PJS1Amtrak has had the Silver Star experience to leverage off of for more than a year. I understand the concept of test markets. I am a certified facilitator. I have facilitated customer focus groups. You don't know anything about me.
An electric power utility is very different than retailing or a passenger railroad. Grapes, apples and oranges. And test marketing and focus groups are also very different breeds of cat, both best managed by marketing folks, not accounting pros.
oltmannd Actually, "for a railroad" would be more accurate.
You are correct. Railroad would be more accurate.
Unlike a truly competitive business, which goes out of business if it makes enough bad decisions, Amtrak is propped up by the taxpayers. If it does not get it right, they will bail it out.
Part of the problem is politics. Amtrak is overburden with it; it has to respond to every politician with a modicum of clout in the country. Which is another reason why having the government involved in running a commercial enterprise is a bad idea.
But as I have said in other threads, we are where we are. So, I guess we just have to make the best of a bad decision, which was setting up Amtrak in the first place.
PJS1Another post suggested that Amtak is moving as fast as it can. Yep! For a government agency.
Actually, "for a railroad" would be more accurate. It's really hard and time consuming to get through the current day's disasters, and the culture rewards those who are good a fire-fighting. There is also the interdepartmental in-fighting and protectionism. Operations will always have a million reasons why you can't change a thing. One or two of them might actually have some validity, but usually it's just risk-aversion.
To see some actual changes make it from a marketing group that suddenly appears awake to implementation is encouraging.
charlie hebdo PJS1 If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue. Your comment suggests you were never employed in the public side of a company, such as retail sales or marketing. What you call gradualism is simply trying out a new strategy on a limited basis. It's commonplace in successful companies.
Your comment suggests you were never employed in the public side of a company, such as retail sales or marketing. What you call gradualism is simply trying out a new strategy on a limited basis. It's commonplace in successful companies.
Amtrak has had the Silver Star experience to leverage off of for more than a year.
I understand the concept of test markets. I am a certified facilitator. I have facilitated customer focus groups. You don't know anything about me.
Another post suggested that Amtak is moving as fast as it can. Yep! For a government agency. Why not? It does not have any real competition. So, it does not have any compelling drivers to do things better, faster, cheaper. This is the reason why government should not be involved in any commercial enterprises.
PJS1If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue.
Boars Head is currently doing a lot of marketing and advertising, I see their ads on TV a lot. I am sure they pay for the mention. The menu with photos of the food do look like a nice local diner menu. I am not sure in the old diner that a $28 steak warrants a photo. Photos make me think lower cost places.
CMStPnP PJS1 Here is a link to the new menu being introducted on the NEC: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Corridor-Cafe-Menu-061318.pdf So, if Amtrak dropped the dining cars on all of its trains, and implemented this menu or a variation of it in the lounge car, what percentage of the passengers do you think would really be unhappy? If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue. Immediate improvements I noticed: 1. Appetizing pictures on front of menu and inside menu of offerings. 2. Boars Head Premium meat brand displayed. 3. "Made fresh daily" listed in the Sandwich Section. 4. Two price points on wine and beer both. Huge Marketing improvement over the cartoonish images and plain text with no pictures on the Superliner Diner menus. Smartly done. Obviously no longer a "we have always done it this way in the past" person in charge.
PJS1 Here is a link to the new menu being introducted on the NEC: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Corridor-Cafe-Menu-061318.pdf So, if Amtrak dropped the dining cars on all of its trains, and implemented this menu or a variation of it in the lounge car, what percentage of the passengers do you think would really be unhappy? If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue.
Here is a link to the new menu being introducted on the NEC:
https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Corridor-Cafe-Menu-061318.pdf
So, if Amtrak dropped the dining cars on all of its trains, and implemented this menu or a variation of it in the lounge car, what percentage of the passengers do you think would really be unhappy?
If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue.
Immediate improvements I noticed:
1. Appetizing pictures on front of menu and inside menu of offerings.
2. Boars Head Premium meat brand displayed.
3. "Made fresh daily" listed in the Sandwich Section.
4. Two price points on wine and beer both.
Huge Marketing improvement over the cartoonish images and plain text with no pictures on the Superliner Diner menus. Smartly done. Obviously no longer a "we have always done it this way in the past" person in charge.
I'm impressed! This didn't happen overnight. Not just ordering up any old thing from Gate Gourmet. This took time, thought and planning.
It reminds me a lot of the NZ trains I rode.
Which gives us hope that the long term solution for the LD trains could be pretty decent.
And, I agree, someone at Amtrak is alive and thinking.
BaltACD CMStPnP PJS1 Here is a link to the new menu being introducted on the NEC: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Corridor-Cafe-Menu-061318.pdf So, if Amtrak dropped the dining cars on all of its trains, and implemented this menu or a variation of it in the lounge car, what percentage of the passengers do you think would really be unhappy? If I were Anderson, I would discontinue the dining cars in one fell swoop. The gradualism approach suggests a company that does not know what it is doing. Amtrak should be all in on this issue. Immediate improvements I noticed: 1. Appetizing pictures on front of menu and inside menu of offerings. 2. Boars Head Premium meat brand displayed. 3. "Made fresh daily" listed in the Sandwich Section. 4. Two price points on wine and beer both. Huge Marketing improvement over the cartoonish images and plain text with no pictures on the Superliner Diner menus. Smartly done. Obviously no longer a "we have always done it this way in the past" person in charge. I wonder if Amtrak is collecting a royalty for displaying the trademarks for the products that are being featured?
I wonder if Amtrak is collecting a royalty for displaying the trademarks for the products that are being featured?
I'll bet it's all part of the deal. It sure looks a modern marketing deal.
I don't think there's any gradualism going on. I think they are moving as fast as they can. They've been asleep a while. They have the new diners. Might as well use them for a first class lounge until you figure out what your longer term plans are...
BaltACD oltmannd Most HIX have exactly one person handling the breakfast.... Same as I have observed at various Quality Inn's and Ramada's
oltmannd Most HIX have exactly one person handling the breakfast....
Same as I have observed at various Quality Inn's and Ramada's
Ditto with Hampton Inns, La Quintas and Country Inns.
oltmanndMost HIX have exactly one person handling the breakfast....
Those cinnamon buns, though. Your waist size increased just by walking past them.
Most HIX have exactly one person handling the breakfast....
oltmanndYes.... Exactly.
Those things take alot to set up and break down. (I was lost on youtube-land one night and was watching the instructional video on them).
zugmann They need a pancake machine like at Holiday Inn Express.
They need a pancake machine like at Holiday Inn Express.
Yes.... Exactly.
NorthWest I'm not sure that the author really has anything to personally gain from this as he's no longer with Amtrak, but I am a bit suspicious of the stated reason why the project was cancelled. Worth at least an experiment again though. If it doesn't work just cancel it and move on.
I'm not sure that the author really has anything to personally gain from this as he's no longer with Amtrak, but I am a bit suspicious of the stated reason why the project was cancelled.
Worth at least an experiment again though. If it doesn't work just cancel it and move on.
So my take having run a fast casual sub shop with cooked to order subs. Some of what is said is true. Night Chef doing morning prep and the Day Chef can sleep in. That was true for the place I ran and I started service at Lunch and only served Lunch and Dinner. Breakfest is break even at best because the prices are so low the margins are slim so the franchise I worked for said serving breakfest was optional but they recommended against it, particularly if you were in a shopping mall because most malls open around 9-10 a.m. and your mostly leaving the breakfest time by then.
So basically with Joe Public and meal times just based on my experience in a shopping mall (lifestyle mall). Majority of clients ate at fixed meal times of 11:00 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.......and 4:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. Outside of those times almost a ghost town. I was open from 10:30 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. Now sometimes when there was a good movie on at the Mall Cinema we could potentially get a small crowd at 9:00 to 9:30 p.m. but it was too rare to pay the labor to extend the hours. Every once in a while we would get a handful of mall workers show up right at 10 or 10:15 to grab a early lunch and we would open early for them. So the part about the Diner being more profitable if opened 24 by 7 I find highly doubtful with a largely fixed clientele on a moving passenger train.
So if we opened at 10:30 a.m. I wanted the crew in at 9:00 to 9:30 a.m. to prep most of the food for the day so it was fresh. Some food could be done the night before and would keep (onions, carrots and if you know how to cut Lettuce it would keep as well......otherwise it turns to mush). Tomatos, Green Peppers and the rest that was fresh had to be prepped the day of. After the dining room closed it took another 1.5 hours to cleanup to Health Department standards.
BTW, best way to cut Ice Berg and Romaine Lettuce is to chill first in Ice Water, dry the head off with a towel and cut with a very sharp knife in 1 inch squares. It would keep for several days that way and taste fresh like you just cut it each day.....because that method limits the moisture release over time. Romaine you of course had to de-vien (the large viens) it first before cutting the leafs smaller. Anyhoo, off on a tanget but that little trick of knowing how to cut lettuce saved boku bucks in avoiding spoilage. Some kitchens you'll notice use a food processor, it is faster but you pay for it in spoilage because you have to use everything you send through a food processor the in 1-1.5 days or it's crap.
NorthWest Interesting editorial: https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/getting-there-is-half-the-fun/
Interesting editorial: https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/getting-there-is-half-the-fun/
Written by someone who has a vested interest in putting the best possible spin on the outcomes.
Where are the numbers, i.e. incremental revenues, costs, etc.?
There is no independently verifiable supporting data for any of the claims made by the author. If he made claims like these in a real business, he would be required to put up or shut up. Or he would have been shown the door. And it would not have been the door to the executive dining room.
zugmannI think too many people expect 5-star dining in a stainless steel tube when it comes to Amtrak
Amtrak barely makes it to the two star level. There isn't any passenger train I have been on (including pre-Amtrak) that made it to the 5 star level. So I would disagree that is the expectation. The highest I would rate the Rocky Mountineer Gold Leaf food service is 4 stars. Of course for some strange reason they could include caviar on one of the dishes and get the damn meal to the table on time. Don't know why they were so efficient.....seemed like they had the same staffing level as Amtrak. It was obvious though on the Rocky Mountaineer they just finished preparation of most of their dishes. They were brought on board partially prepared and just needed to be chilled or heated. No idea what the cook in the Dining Car on Amtrak is doing or needs to do that run up the prep times so high, would be interesting to find out. Though I suspect a major time loss is the dummy waiter between floors.
Amtraks meals are far below the quality that a First Class passenger should expect and the only reason there is not more complaining in that area is because meals are perceived to be "free" to First Class. Charging First Class passengers extra for wine and beer is just plain marketing stupidity. What is the cost savings vs percieved benefit of charging First Class for Beer and Wine? Very marginal on the General Ledger if you ask me. Asking people to pay for those two items at meal time lowers the travel experience a lot more than it gains in revenue. Mixed drinks different story.
BaltACDThere is a big difference in the expectations for lunch and dinner. Never have heard a good review about boxed dinners.
Look up Ekibens.
I think too many people expect 5-star dining in a stainless steel tube when it comes to Amtrak. Yet cheaper restaurants, fast food places, and conveninece stores usually have plenty of customers. Food for thought.
I do not consider the Amtrak diner meals "fabulous," but they are a change from what is avaailable where I live.
As to box meals, I ate several in the last six years or so before Amtrak came into operation. They did make it possible to eat at reasonable times while traveling during the day. Except for ACL's day train between Waycross and Montgomery, all the trains on which I bought the box meals in that time had had diners in previous years.
CMStPnPI don't remember hearing many if any complaints on the much higher priced Rocky Mountaineer Gold Leaf Service when they served box lunches on the Icefields Parkway tour. Everyone thought they were great. So we'll see how Amtrak passengers react to this but just based on the FB pictures. Boxed meal looks like a better deal than most of the crap they were cooking as Dinner. Some of you folks have really low standards when it comes to a hot meal, if you really think the majority of the current Amtrak Dinner menu is just fabulous. Perhaps you should try serving some to the public where you get the kind of instant feedback from regular customers who expect better. Or better yet, go to the Amtrak homepage and start reading some of the comments about the food from the first time riders or those not in a semi-hypnotic state just because they are riding a passenger train.
Some of you folks have really low standards when it comes to a hot meal, if you really think the majority of the current Amtrak Dinner menu is just fabulous. Perhaps you should try serving some to the public where you get the kind of instant feedback from regular customers who expect better. Or better yet, go to the Amtrak homepage and start reading some of the comments about the food from the first time riders or those not in a semi-hypnotic state just because they are riding a passenger train.
There is a big difference in the expectations for lunch and dinner. Never have heard a good review about boxed dinners.
I don't remember hearing many if any complaints on the much higher priced Rocky Mountaineer Gold Leaf Service when they served box lunches on the Icefields Parkway tour. Everyone thought they were great. So we'll see how Amtrak passengers react to this but just based on the FB pictures. Boxed meal looks like a better deal than most of the crap they were cooking as Dinner.
Amtrak HAS to do a lot better with it's current meal offerings in the Dinning Car, they suck, others just taste bad and are badly presented. They could charge more for the meals if they offered better tasting and better presented fare.
Deggesty BaltACD MidlandMike All's I can think, is that Amtrak management must be empathy-challanged to subject a captive clientele to a 16 hour train ride with not a single hot meal. Anderson will have the airline refrain - Give them another bag of pretzels. To me, pretzels are a last resort--especially the little ones that are put out in the Washington lounge. No; goldfish (also available to the patorns in Washington) are the last resort.
BaltACD MidlandMike All's I can think, is that Amtrak management must be empathy-challanged to subject a captive clientele to a 16 hour train ride with not a single hot meal. Anderson will have the airline refrain - Give them another bag of pretzels.
MidlandMike All's I can think, is that Amtrak management must be empathy-challanged to subject a captive clientele to a 16 hour train ride with not a single hot meal.
Anderson will have the airline refrain - Give them another bag of pretzels.
To me, pretzels are a last resort--especially the little ones that are put out in the Washington lounge. No; goldfish (also available to the patorns in Washington) are the last resort.
Never seen Goldfish when flying (however it has been 9 years since I have flown)
BaltACDEquiping the right of way that Amtrak does not own for Wi-Fi is the problem.
The technology is such now that VIA Rail equips it's cars for full reception and not the right of way. I don't know if they put a dish on each car but on the Skeena you could see more than one dish on the top of the train (they appear as a circular white dome). VIA Rail had a laptop sitting in the last Park Series Car. Not sure if that was open to the public or if that was the "server" for corrdinating the onboard system setup by the VIA Rail crew.
BTW, Direct TV also offers pure satellite internet these days. Never tried it because in bad weather I know it will fail.
Amtrak can do it but as the current Amtrak CEO correctly assessed a lot of the past management thinking is stuck in the 1970's and 1960's with what they provide to the passenger in Amtrak services.......and that needs to change.
Enzoamps Wifi? aside from not owning the tracks, imagine running Wifi support wiring all along the CHicago to Washington route just for one Capitol Limited each day. Even if they considered Toledo to Connelsville is usually traversed in the middle of the night and left it out, that is still many miles for a super low usage. And further, I'd look at that investment as at risk since they are probably just as in doubt as I am that the Capitol will still be running in the near future. Same argument for all the other cross country trains. Darn difficult to get cell phone through the mountains too.
Wifi? aside from not owning the tracks, imagine running Wifi support wiring all along the CHicago to Washington route just for one Capitol Limited each day. Even if they considered Toledo to Connelsville is usually traversed in the middle of the night and left it out, that is still many miles for a super low usage. And further, I'd look at that investment as at risk since they are probably just as in doubt as I am that the Capitol will still be running in the near future.
Same argument for all the other cross country trains. Darn difficult to get cell phone through the mountains too.
.............and Yet VIA RAIL provides Wi-Fi on most of it's long distance trains including a very stable Internet connection along the route of the VIA Rail Skeena that traverses through several mountain ranges and tunnels......and extremely remote areas. Guess how they do it?
They put a dish dome on the top of some of the cars and recieve from a combo of Satellite or local cellular depending on which is available and offers better quality. The dish recievers are linked together so in short tunnels the signal is still picked up by the part of the train not in the tunnel. The server on the train picks which signal to use based on speed and stability. It's rather clever and works pretty good. Speed is faster than dial up but not like Fiber but good enough to connect to the Internet for most apps.
Enzoamps Wifi? aside from not owning the tracks, imagine running Wifi support wiring all along the CHicago to Washington route just for one Capitol Limited each day. Even if they considered Toledo to Connelsville is usually traversed in the middle of the night and left it out, that is still many miles for a super low usage. And further, I'd look at that investment as at risk since they are probably just as in doubt as I am that the Capitol will still be running in the near future.
I think you would use WiFi/WLAN on the train to distribute the signal picked up by the train through 2G/3G and 4G/LTE from the extensive cellular networks. The coverage in the US is quite good:
Every hotel I have stayed at for the past decade have had a refrigerator and micorwave in the room. Are normal hotel guests more astute in the use of these devices than the average Amtrak sleeping car passenger? I have no idea what actions housekeeping perform to keep these devices clean - I doubt the hotel housekeeping staff is any more qualified than Amtrak car cleaners. The hot plate I threw out there with my tongue firmly in my cheek, however, Canadian locomotives I understand must be equiped with a hot plate for Canadian crews.
Equiping Amtrak cars for Wi-Fi is realtively easy. Equiping the right of way that Amtrak does not own for Wi-Fi is the problem.
BaltACDAll sleeping accomidations should be equipped with a refrigerator, microwave oven and a hot plate - then Amtrak can eliminate the diner. With a hot plate Amtrak's sleeping accomidations would then be a step up on most current day hotels. Exhaust manifold cooking on the locomotive is not a viable option for sleeping car passengers.
You notice that even though the Sleepers have been rebuilt once or twice the electronics and electronic devices on them still date from the late 1970's. Why Amtrak has not updated to bluetooth, Wi-Fi, etc. Anyones guess and it would not be a huge added expense on top of a sleeper rebuild.
The communal kitchen in a sleeper would not work as it needs to be maintained to health department standards and most passengers can see with the toilet maintenece that is probably going to be spotty at best. Putting a kitchen within a sleeping car compartment would be a fire concern as even with a microwave and a audible timer in front of them.......have seen employees at work nearly start a fire with microwaveable popcorn. Some passengers would be idiots around anything that would be a fire hazzard.
Refrigerators and ice makers in the sleeping car compartment might be workable but still they have to be emptied, cleaned and sterilized at the end of each journey. Sterialization can be done via traditional blue fluid spray (forget what that stuff is called but it non-toxic if mixed correctly). So maybe a really small refrigerator and ice maker / cold water dispenser?
If it was me and I was running Amtrak and I had a very little money to add something to the sleeping car compartment. Definitely would be a lockable mini-bar and once the passenger was given the key they would be responsible for the inventory in the minibar. Think of the marginal revenue that would add and you can store the liquor at room temperature so only would need a lockable cabinet with potentially a small ice maker.
OvermodWhy, the next thing you know, we'll have a refrigerator available for our carry-on delicacies, and a CD player for ambient music or celebrations... and be up to the luxury-content level of Australian ore Trains!
All sleeping accomidations should be equipped with a refrigerator, microwave oven and a hot plate - then Amtrak can eliminate the diner. With a hot plate Amtrak's sleeping accomidations would then be a step up on most current day hotels. Exhaust manifold cooking on the locomotive is not a viable option for sleeping car passengers.
Why, the next thing you know, we'll have a refrigerator available for our carry-on delicacies, and a CD player for ambient music or celebrations... and be up to the luxury-content level of Australian ore Trains!
NKP guy Once again, good news from Amtrak regarding their ongoing valiant efforts to serve us better! A microwave oven has been placed in the brand-new, expensive dining car, and it's expressly for our use alone as First Class passengers! Look out, Canada! We're overtaking on you with our new Amtrak Prestige Service on the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited!
Look out, Canada! We're overtaking on you with our new Amtrak Prestige Service on the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited!
Will CSX & NS be told to operate the trains with 'Canadian' style On Time performance?
Once again, good news from Amtrak regarding their ongoing valiant efforts to serve us better! A microwave oven has been placed in the brand-new, expensive dining car, and it's expressly for our use alone as First Class passengers!
Now Trains Newswire states that Amtrak has reversed itself and will offer 2 hot meal options on these trains. However, the dining options remain the same, in your compartment or in the dining car reserved for sleeping car passengers.
The problem started with Congress and PRIIA. Running trains to maintain at least a contingency passenger rail network is going to need subsidy. If you are transporting people for several hours, you are going to need to feed them. If it takes more subsidy to run a moving eatery, than that is the cost of providing the public service. To think you can parse out food service is absurd. History is repeating itself. Before Amtrak, the railroads were compelled to run the passenger trains, but apparently food service was left up to the carriers. Some railroads installed automats or did other cost-cutting things to discourage patronage. Now Congress has replaced private rail management, and the new Amtrak head is like the former passenger dept., tasked with cutting costs, with the added benefit of discouraging business. Watching travelogues, I see that even third world countries serve hot food on their trains.
This dreadful, passenger-be-damned attitude of the new regime at Amtrak is just breaking my heart. No good can come from such a misguided policy, which is no doubt management's goal.
The vision of me sitting in a brand new but non-functioning diner, eating my dinner out of a box with plastic utensils and then cleaning up after myself, is not at all a pleasant one. Nor will I be likely ever to speak to a coach passenger again; so much for meeting young people and foreign tourists. And all of this Amtrak-inflicted misery is being sold to us "to serve you better." As if.
When I rode #49 in late April I made sure I went into the station at Albany-Rensselaer and photographed the menuboard at the deli there. I recommend westbound passengers either bring their own provender aboard at NYP or buy soup and sandwiches at the Rensselaer deli. We will still have to eat in the segregated dining car-that's-not-a-dining car, and off of paper and cardboard, but at least the food we eat will be hot and of a much wider and better prepared variety than what Amtrak is grudgingly offering.
As far as I'm concerned, Amtrak can take their cold meal and shove it.
No problem Railvt!
Just include the full cost of food and beverages in the price. That is what a real business would do. Then see how many takers Amtrak gets.
A case can be made for subsidizing long distance passenger trains in areas not served by other commercial passenger carriers, although they are few and far between in the U.S. But there is no social justification for subsidizing meals on an Amtrak train.
Here's a photo of the Antipasto dinner box on the LAKESHORE LIMITED. There's not even a proper plate provided. This is an "upgraded" example of an airline snack pack--not a proper meal.
www.facebook.com/hvfoodservice
This is gosh awful. One group of riders will love this. The rodent family residents of the coach yards will find their way on-board, as there will be a treasure rolling around under the seats in the sleeper rooms to enjoy! I hope they'll enjoy their re-locations from the east coast to the Midwest (and return?)!
And I'm not just being sarcastic. Encouraging most passengers to eat in their rooms as the new policy does (even though a full Viewliner diner is present as the "Sleeper Lounge") means food will need to be aggressively cleaned up in the ultra-confined space of the sleeper rooms. This was an issue years ago when Amtrak was still handing out free snack amenity packs in the sleepers. Like it or not the yard crews just weren't capable of deep cleaning after every run. We can count on this to be a problem again.
Even in the "Sleeper lounge" the one person crew will be very unlikely to be willing/able to properly clean up after each "meal". Truly this plan is not clean or sanitary.
It's also sad to note that coach passengers are also really getting the shaft on the LSL. The Viewliner diner is for sleeper only access. The "Coach Lounge" is actually half of a Business/Lounge Amfleet I cafe car. At best that means only 5 1/2 tables--but invariably the conductors take one full table and the handicap half table. The attendent takes another--meaning the 240+ riders in the four Amfleet II coaches "share" at most three lounge tables on this train.
So the Anderson management pours down its contempt on all riders.
Carl Fowler
PJS1Dragging the dining car around as a lounge car gives the appearance that Amtrak doesn't really know what it is doing.
And this is news?
Deggesty John, from information sent to me in connection with my planned upcoming trip, the former diners will now be first-class lounges, and sleeper passengers will be able to eat their meals in them.
John, from information sent to me in connection with my planned upcoming trip, the former diners will now be first-class lounges, and sleeper passengers will be able to eat their meals in them.
If the dining cars were parked, how much fuel would be saved by pulling a train with one less car?
A Superliner lounge car has eight tables topside and up to four tables on the lower level. It seems to me that those sleeping car passengers who wanted to break bread with their fellow passengers could do so in the lounge car. I suspect some of them would be happy to chow down in their rooms. Unless everyone rushed the lounge car at the same time, there should be room.
Dragging the dining car around as a lounge car gives the appearance that Amtrak doesn't really know what it is doing.
Just what the division of labor will be, I do not know, but I somehow have the impression that there will be one person taking care of the meals for all of the sleeper passengers.
If you ever traveled in sleepers before Amtrak got its current sleepers you would know that the current sleepers are not quite first class, even though the regular Amtrak bedrooms and Viewliner accessible bedrooms do have showers. I even think that the Slumbercoach accommodations were better than the Amtrak roomettes.
OK. Do we have a report from trackside?
Did the Capitol Limited and Lakeshore Limited depart their respective terminals Friday WITHOUT dining cars?
How about a report from anyone who was on board either of these trains? What is the new menu? What is the dining service (I use that word loosely) like?
Sounds to me like the Sleeping Car Attendant is now also the Chef / Cook, Dining Car Steward, and also Waiter. This guy will be worked to death before the train can even get up to track speed! No wonder the unions are unhappy with the new situation.
Anyone have an up-to-date report on how things are now operating, meal-wise, on these two trains?
BaltACDGuess everyone should get a 22nd Century food injection!
Works for me. Not everyone is a foodie.
charlie hebdo zugmann It isn't 1970 anymore. Microwave-able food has come a long way since then. Maybe it's time to attempt the automat car again? Very true. But the complainers are stuck in the 1950s. They want quality restaurant dinners served on a white tablecloth with china, silverware, crystal and a fresh rose, all for $10.
zugmann It isn't 1970 anymore. Microwave-able food has come a long way since then. Maybe it's time to attempt the automat car again?
It isn't 1970 anymore. Microwave-able food has come a long way since then. Maybe it's time to attempt the automat car again?
Very true. But the complainers are stuck in the 1950s. They want quality restaurant dinners served on a white tablecloth with china, silverware, crystal and a fresh rose, all for $10.
Guess everyone should get a 22nd Century food injection!
Normally I do not agree much which comes from the keyboard of Fred Frailey but this time he hit it correct on the head. Anderson is getting a bad rap on this. The CEO is only doing what is being required by law from the US Congress on Amtrak bottom line. Just like Fred stated, the new meal service being launched is what has been around for yrs on the Portland section of Empire Builder. No one cried wolf when that came about. Dining car service is a huge money looser and no longer can be business as usual from yrs past. The food there is horrible. Lets fid a way to fix it. If nothing is done, then many will be standing around at some future point in the future when there are no more trains at all and be wondering "what were we thinking". I am for support of Amtrak but only in the least-costly and effficient method. At least Anderson is trying to do this and he has stood up to the issue while other past CEO's have not.
MidlandMikeAll's I can think, is that Amtrak management must be empathy-challanged to subject a captive clientele to a 16 hour train ride with not a single hot meal.
All's I can think, is that Amtrak management must be empathy-challanged to subject a captive clientele to a 16 hour train ride with not a single hot meal.
MidlandMike I think "enhanced" has replaced the worn out phrase "in order to serve you better...". Either way you know you're going to be let down.
I think "enhanced" has replaced the worn out phrase "in order to serve you better...". Either way you know you're going to be let down.
I received the following this morning, in coneection with a trip I plan to take in September:
Beginning June 1, Amtrak will offer contemporary meal choices for sleeping car customers, in place of traditional dining car service, onboard the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited trains. Sleeping car customers will choose from a variety of quality, fresh and ready-to-serve meals. Unlimited soft drinks, a complimentary serving of beer, wine or a mixed-drink and an amenity kit will also be offered to sleeping car customers.
Sleeping car customers will have the option to dine at available seating in the sleeping car lounge or can continue to be served in their bedrooms or roomettes.
Reservations for in room dining will be available in frequent intervals consistent with today’s standards and meals continue to be included in the sleeping car fare. A Kosher meal continues to be available with advance notice.
More information is available here
Thank you for choosing Amtrak.
I am glad that "quality" was not mentioned. When I see or hear "quality," I think of the quality grade of fence boards--which may have knot holes, loose knots, wane, or any variety of warp. It is definitely inferior to the grade "#2 or better" (which, as I recall, may have a little bit of wane--it's been about twenty years since I worked in a lumber yard), which is inferior to the top grade.
When buying fence boards, I always looked at each board--and would find one or two quality boards mixed in with the better lumber.
"Enhanced room service?" Currently, hot meal room service is available on all trains with diners.
Since I use a walker for getting around (while not on board), I am often asked if I will be wanting my meals served in my bedroom--and I am able to say that I plan to go to the diner.
Apparently, those at Amtrak who say that meal service will be enhanced do not know the meaning of the word "enhanced," think the traveling public does not know the meaning of the word, or are knowingly lying.
PJS1 Here is the question that I would like someone(s) to address. Maybe it has been covered, but if so I missed it. Do the meal changes announced for sleeping car passengers on the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited mean the dining cars will be removed from those trains beginning on June 1?
Here is the question that I would like someone(s) to address. Maybe it has been covered, but if so I missed it.
Do the meal changes announced for sleeping car passengers on the Lake Shore Limited and the Capitol Limited mean the dining cars will be removed from those trains beginning on June 1?
As I understand it: YES
See my post of 4-27 where I mentioned I am booked on the Capitol Limited in June; DC to Chicago & return a few days later.
Here is the information taked from the AMTRAK Capitol Limited public timetable effective June 1, 2018:
Dining: Contemporary and fresh dining choices for Sleeping car customers onboard. Meals can be ordered with the Sleping car attendant and delivered to Sleeping car passengers through enhanced room service. Sleeping car customers choose from a variety of quailty, fresh and ready-to-serve meals. A Kosher meal is available with advance notice. Sleeping car passengers have the option to dine at available seating in the Lounge car or served in their bedrooms or roomettes.
Lounge Service: Sandwiches, snacks and beverages.
Sightseer lounge: Available seasonally.
There is NO DINING CAR on the train!
They are not cutting fares, nor waiving cancellation penalties.
A view from the Cresent
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amtrak-crescent-new-orleans/index.html
The food is pretty tasty -- rail cuisine doesn't suffer the same tinkering that goes into preparing food that will be served at 35,000 feet. The train is spacious; there's a dining car, a lounge and you can walk around, recline, even lie flat.
Does anyone remember when the word "Limited" as part of a train
name said that train was special. Now it means limited food and
a cheap blanket!!
DeggestyI wonder if paronage of the Cardinal will increase since it still offers hot meals?
I suspect if the Cardinal's patronage would increase, Anderson would see about increasing the journey by 12 hours or so as well as ditching food service.
I wonder if patronage of the Cardinal will increase since it still offers hot meals?
PJS1Executive management pays attention to performance numbers. If ridership on the long-distance trains declines significantly following the removal of the dining cars, and the decline is attributable to the change, Mr. Anderson and his executive team may pay attention. Otherwise, they are likely to ignore the pleadings of small albeit vocal advocates.
If ridership is down - Anderson will be delighted and begin the next phases of his plan to kill Amtrak.
Railvt Thanks. I'm trying, I suppose, to shame the Anderson management into rethinking a very foolis action........A 2 person crew services both the diner (Cross Country Cafe) and the lounge car on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS.......
Thanks. I'm trying, I suppose, to shame the Anderson management into rethinking a very foolis action........A 2 person crew services both the diner (Cross Country Cafe) and the lounge car on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS.......
Executive management pays attention to performance numbers. If ridership on the long-distance trains declines significantly following the change in meal options, and the decline is attributable to the change, Mr. Anderson and his executive team may pay attention.
The only long-distance train that I ride is the Texas Eagle. And then only between Dallas and San Antonio. Normally it has a Cross Country Cafe dining car and a lounge car. The dining car has a chef, which given the duties, is a stretch, and two servers. The lounge car has an attendant in the lower level who sells food and beverages.
On occasion Amtrak substitutes a second dining car on the Eagle in place of the lounge car that has been pulled off for whatever reason. When this occurs, the lounge car attendant opens the buffet in the substituted Cross-County Cafe car and sells the eats and beverages that are normally available in the lounge car. The number of food and beverage servers is the same.
So, do the changes announced for the LSL and the CL mean that the dining cars will be removed from those trains beginning on June 1?
If a sit-down dining car experience is non-negotiable - don't count on it, the patrons should pay the fully allocated cost of their meals.
A case can be made for subsidizing basic passenger train services in high density corridors or to rural communities that don't have another viable option. But using taxpayer monies to subsidize an Amtrak passenger's meals is not warranted.
RailvtThat Amtrak did not do this on the LSL/CL sadly vindicates my point that they knew exactly what they were doing and went ahead anyway.
It is more difficult to do away with a train if you satisfy the customers that use it and by word of mouth advertising get their friends and acquaintances to also use the service.
Reduction of services was one of the tactics the railroads did to discourage use of their passenger trains and create Amtrak in the first place.
Thanks. I'm trying, I suppose, to shame the Anderson management into rethinking a very foolis action. They already have options that get them the staff cost savings they want without this degree of service degradation.
A 2 person crew services both the diner (Cross Country Cafe) and the lounge car on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS (no attendent in the lounge--you buy your drinks/snacks in the diner) and that's the model for the CAPITOL LIMITED. The same is true on the single-level CARDINAL, 2 staff providing dining and drink service from a "diner-lite" car and a Business Class/combined louge adjacent with service from the diner--the model for the LAKESHORE.
That Amtrak did not do this on the LSL/CL sadly vindicates my point that they knew exactly what they were doing and went ahead anyway.
Carl, you make some great points. Many forget why and under what circumstances amtrak was created.
We have been fighting for funding for Amtrak since it's inception. I believe some sort of middle ground will be found. A diner and hot food is non negotiable on a long distance train.
Until it is, the good fight has to continue. Thanks for being part of the battle.
CPRcst PJS1, is Greyhound still around?
PJS1, is Greyhound still around?
Greyhound is very much alive in Texas.
As an example, it has 16 schedules a day between Dallas and Houston, with intermediate stops at Corsicana, Buffalo, and Conroe.
Between San Antonio and Brownsville, which is deep in the Rio Grande Valley, where I live, it has 14 offerings a day, with stops at Alice, McAllen, and Harlingen.
The best example is the service between Dallas and San Antonio. Greyhound has 22 daily schedules between DFW and the Alamo City. Running time with intermediate stops is about 5 1/2 hours. Comparatively, the running time of the Texas Eagle between Dallas and San Antonio is 10 hours five minutes.
Why do people take the train between the two cities. Fares. To be competitive, Amtrak undercuts the fares on Greyhound to the extent possible, although it has a real challenge on its hands with Megabus.
Tilting at windmills, or perhaps hoping saner minds might reverse a very bad decision I issued the following Op Ed today to every newspaper still covering Travel and in a special send to the outlets along the LAKESHORE and CAPITOL LIMITED routes. Hopefully it will at least draw a contrast to the obfuscation about "New and Contemporary" cold boxed meals as First Class diner. A longer version is on my Facebook page if anyone is interested.
Carl Fowler is the retired President of Rail Travel Center/Rail Travel Adventures. He worked full time for over 35 years selling rail travel worldwide, including Amtrak. Mr. Fowler is a Vice-Chair of the Rail Passenger Association/NARP. These are his personal views.
Yes, as Balt says, Greyhound is still around. However, its routes are greatly reduced from what they were fifty years ago. There are many towns, including two in which I lived, that no longer have any intercity bus service--and the frequency of operation on existing routes is not anywhere close to what it was back then.
To get to my college alumni gatherings, I take a bus from Charlottesville to Bristol (the train times in Roanoke are not convenient for me)--and there are only two buses a day each way. When I was in college, there were perhaps six buses a day each way.
CPRcstPJS1, is Greyhound still around? In Canada First group revamped Greyhound by taking over the feeder lines and then reducing service to almost nothing, then withdrawing service. In most of Western Canada, except for major centres, it’s drive or stay home.
Greyhound still exists in the US. I have seen their busses on my Interstate travels this year, however I have no idea what their route structure or service frequency is.
PJS1, is Greyhound still around? In Canada First group revamped Greyhound by taking over the feeder lines and then reducing service to almost nothing, then withdrawing service. In most of Western Canada, except for major centres, it’s drive or stay home.
railfanjohn said[in part]:"...I am booked in sleeper space so I will get a cold meal delivered to my room, which I can then take to a table in the lounge car (seating subject to availability - 1st come 1st accomodated)..."
Deggesty(Johnny) said[in part]: "...Perhaps Amtrak has redefined the word "enhance"? Or is someone at Amtrak so unlearned as to not have any idea as to the meaning of the word?.."
Johnny, You are being too kind! Basicly, what that cold meal is, is just like in school; You got sent out the door to go to school with a sack lunch [PB&J sandwich(s?), and maybe, some chips?] I am reminded of a plane ride my daughter took some time back. Her complaint was they only had botteled water to drink, and her sandwich had a full growth of some nasty looking mold on it. She did not eat it, and left it in the overhead compartmen, in the Delta blanket.... The joys of modern Transport!
Correctly, ein deutsches Gift.
In the spy world beware Russians bearing "Gifts"...it's their preferred method.
Overmod My wish is that no one ever suffers a garnishMENT and that we get great gifts that are not in the German sense of the word.
My wish is that no one ever suffers a garnishMENT and that we get great gifts that are not in the German sense of the word.
Overmod recovers and gives an excellent counter. I declare a tie!
My wish is no one every suffers a garnishee and we all get great gifted gifts.
DeggestyWell, Webster's Third New International English Dictionary defends "garnishee" as a verb, meaning to attach part of a person's pay.
Yes, but (1) it's not the preferred verb; and (2) the OED makes the correct distinction -- they recognize the use as a verb, but note it's secondary.
This is one of those things like using 'gift' as a verb - you may find it in the dictionary as the rot spreads in the culture, but it will never be right.
....and Johnny counters with the old 'iron skillet to the head' move.
Deggesty Overmod Johnny, "garnishee" as a verb is, at best, a sturdy indefensible. It's the noun for the person whose wage is garnished. And we have too much using nouns as verbs in sloppy contemporary practice as it is. A bit like that ridiculous line of dreck that came out of 'the Mac is not a typewriter' -- the idea that there are not two spaces separating sentences in 'desktop published' composition. The wretched idea that the space between composed words is adjusted just like that between sentences not only makes a mockery out of esthetics, it makes it impossible to automate capitalization and punctuation in a straightforward way, especially if you are an iOS "engineer" trying to make text entry workable. Well, Webster's Third New International English Dictionary defends "garnishee" as a verb, meaning to attach part of a person's pay.
Overmod Johnny, "garnishee" as a verb is, at best, a sturdy indefensible. It's the noun for the person whose wage is garnished. And we have too much using nouns as verbs in sloppy contemporary practice as it is. A bit like that ridiculous line of dreck that came out of 'the Mac is not a typewriter' -- the idea that there are not two spaces separating sentences in 'desktop published' composition. The wretched idea that the space between composed words is adjusted just like that between sentences not only makes a mockery out of esthetics, it makes it impossible to automate capitalization and punctuation in a straightforward way, especially if you are an iOS "engineer" trying to make text entry workable.
Johnny, "garnishee" as a verb is, at best, a sturdy indefensible. It's the noun for the person whose wage is garnished. And we have too much using nouns as verbs in sloppy contemporary practice as it is.
A bit like that ridiculous line of dreck that came out of 'the Mac is not a typewriter' -- the idea that there are not two spaces separating sentences in 'desktop published' composition. The wretched idea that the space between composed words is adjusted just like that between sentences not only makes a mockery out of esthetics, it makes it impossible to automate capitalization and punctuation in a straightforward way, especially if you are an iOS "engineer" trying to make text entry workable.
Well, Webster's Third New International English Dictionary defends "garnishee" as a verb, meaning to attach part of a person's pay.
According to the OED, you are both correct. However, in law garnish is a verb, garnishee is a noun, as "a third party who is instructed by way of legal notice to surrender money to settle a debt or claim." It can also be used as an adjective, as "a garnishee order."
railfanjohn So if I understand all of this correctly - When I take the Capitol Limited in June; Washington, DC to Chicago, IL (and return); the train will not include a dining car? I am booked in sleeper space so I will get a cold meal delivered to my room, which I can then take to a table in the lounge car (seating subject to availability - 1st come 1st accomodated) ? Please explain to me how this will "enhance" my Amtrak experience?
So if I understand all of this correctly - When I take the Capitol Limited in June; Washington, DC to Chicago, IL (and return); the train will not include a dining car? I am booked in sleeper space so I will get a cold meal delivered to my room, which I can then take to a table in the lounge car (seating subject to availability - 1st come 1st accomodated) ? Please explain to me how this will "enhance" my Amtrak experience?
I do not know of any word similar in form to "enhance" that means "reduce pleasure," but I am reminded of the fact that some people use the word "garnish" ("add to") when they mean "garnishee" (sequester part of someone eles's pay).
this is interesting, I've not seen a thread or thread update about this I did read the newswire article but for whatever reason I've not been able to read comments on newswire for a couple weeks.
It certainly does seem like florFlo government is against private party passenger trains.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
CMStPnP chrsjrcj Are the sleeping cars a bigger money loser than coach? I would think the opposite when rooms can approach $1k on popular trains, where as a coach ticket is typically only $100-$200 for the same journey.
Well, I'll be damned. This is the second time in this thread that I agree 100 percent with CMStPnP's analysis. It is largely in line with the IG's 2005 study of sleeping car subsidies vs. coach subsidies.
zugmann I think partially that we want to keep politics out of here. You here the retoric for all sides all day long till it becomes numbing. In the case of bright line, is the flak coming from the highway lobbist? Between miami and cocoa beach I 95 is 8 laned for the majority of the trip and parallel to it the florida turnpike is 6 lane. The same goes for I 4 between tampa- Orlando and Daytona. We are talking like California grid lock with no more room for concrete. From what I read bright line is exceeding expectations, so Floridians have begun to embrace it. Maybe it's a little fear. CMStPnP I find it rather disconcerting that nobody was offended at how Brightline was treated by Congress this week. Apparently Congress feels that passenger rail operations should not be privately run either. A very clear bias that the highway lobby is in control. I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum. So why not start a topic?
In the case of bright line, is the flak coming from the highway lobbist? Between miami and cocoa beach I 95 is 8 laned for the majority of the trip and parallel to it the florida turnpike is 6 lane. The same goes for I 4 between tampa- Orlando and Daytona. We are talking like California grid lock with no more room for concrete.
From what I read bright line is exceeding expectations, so Floridians have begun to embrace it. Maybe it's a little fear.
CMStPnP I find it rather disconcerting that nobody was offended at how Brightline was treated by Congress this week. Apparently Congress feels that passenger rail operations should not be privately run either. A very clear bias that the highway lobby is in control. I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum.
So why not start a topic?
zugmannSo why not start a topic?
It's in the Trains Magazine Newswire section. Everytime I start a topic and link to that part of the website someone tells me I should have waited for Brian Schmidt (Trains Editor) to do the link.
CMStPnPI find it rather disconcerting that nobody was offended at how Brightline was treated by Congress this week. Apparently Congress feels that passenger rail operations should not be privately run either. A very clear bias that the highway lobby is in control. I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum.
BaltACDSleep Inn and Comfort Inn and a number of other motel chains offer a 'real' brealfast of your chosing. Bacon, Sausage, Eggs, Cereal, Fruit, Waffles - doing it on a train is more difficult, however, it could be done with one attendent and the proper supplies.
Holiday Inn Express has those "gain 5#s by looking at them" cinnamon buns, though.
CMStPnP Nothing has chsnged for the better. ROBERT WILLISON Hopefully the fall election's will solve some of these issues and restore funding that Amtrak needs to operate. The same conventional wisdom that led to the shock of 2016, will lead to the shock of 2018. It will be worth twice the snickering though if you ask me because again those that want the status quo will be again be shocked the country has changed and is tired of it. I find it rather disconcerting that nobody was offended at how Brightline was treated by Congress this week. Apparently Congress feels that passenger rail operations should not be privately run either. A very clear bias that the highway lobby is in control. I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum.
Nothing has chsnged for the better.
ROBERT WILLISON Hopefully the fall election's will solve some of these issues and restore funding that Amtrak needs to operate.
The same conventional wisdom that led to the shock of 2016, will lead to the shock of 2018. It will be worth twice the snickering though if you ask me because again those that want the status quo will be again be shocked the country has changed and is tired of it.
I find it rather disconcerting that nobody was offended at how Brightline was treated by Congress this week. Apparently Congress feels that passenger rail operations should not be privately run either. A very clear bias that the highway lobby is in control. I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum.
chrsjrcjAre the sleeping cars a bigger money loser than coach? I would think the opposite when rooms can approach $1k on popular trains, where as a coach ticket is typically only $100-$200 for the same journey.
Yup, they lose more money because they haul less passengers plus Amtrak wants to stick with a pricing model that attracts the most people to the train vs a pricing model that attempts to recover the actual costs. So even if Amtrak sold out the Sleeping car for 4-5 consecutive nights in a row on some runs, it would still lose money.
Some acedemic exercises for you to prove to yourself that Amtrak is undercharging for Sleeping Car Passengers.
1. See if you can find some old tarriffs from Class I Sleeping Car service for approx equal sized accomodations and bring the rates up to today using an inflation calculator.
2. If you find #1 too challenging, hell just compare the VIA Rail Canada Sleeping Car rates to Amtrak and make the appropriate dollar adjustments and see if VIA Rail is not charging more, for older equipment.
3. Sleeping Car passengers provide the bulk of the Dining Car's patronage yet most do not tip for the service nor do they pay much in the Dining Car because meals are free and included in the fare (which means Sleeping Car charges are even less than what you state above, if you subtract the meals included).
4. See any difference in price in the Viewliner Sleepers vs the Superliner Sleepers? Viewliner can carry less than a Superliner, is a lot newer, but should have approx the same single car running costs as a Superliner or close to it. But less passengers so what does Amtrak do? Well, um it is part of the Sleeping Car fleet......and the rooms are similar.......lets charge the same or similar rate as we do on a Western Train. Thats how Amtrak runs a business.
zugmannThey need a pancake machine like at Holiday Inn Express.
Sleep Inn and Comfort Inn and a number of other motel chains offer a 'real' brealfast of your chosing. Bacon, Sausage, Eggs, Cereal, Fruit, Waffles - doing it on a train is more difficult, however, it could be done with one attendent and the proper supplies.
MidlandMike So you cannot think of a successful business that wants to do things just like they were done in the 1950s. Is Greyhound still in business? Cruse lines cerentainly have changed since the 50s.
Cruse lines cerentainly have changed since the 50s.
Greyhound completely revamped its business model, thanks in no small part to the influence of First Group, which is the UK based firm that owns it.
Cruise ships have changed dramatically since they first appeared on the scene. They feature more amenities, in part because they are huge compared to their predecessors, and they carry lot more paying passengers.
The Carnival Valor, which I returned on today from a five day cruise, has a gross weight of 110,000 tons and carries 2,980 guests. But it is not Carnival's largest ship, which is the Vista class at more than 133,500 tons. They can carry more than 3,900 paying guests.
Cruise ships today don't look anything like they did 25 years ago when 70,000 tons and 2,000 guests was considered huge. That's the point. They have changed dramatically to meet a changing market.
Interestingly, the Carnival Vista's displacement at 133,500 tons outstrips the Gerald Ford class carrier at 100,000 long tons and 110,000 short tons.
Revamping the long-distance trains may be the best hope of keeping them around.
MidlandMikeMaybe the cruse lines should act like a business and just serve cold food and make people sleep on deck chairs.
As long as the passengers are drunk, teye'd be happy with that.
PJS1 CMStPnP I'm OK with the change and to me it appears to be a innovative move financially. Wow, I used Amtrak and "Innovative" in the same post. Sounds like Anderson is intent on managing Amtrak like a real business. And that is innovative. If I were Anderson I would get rid of the dining cars and sleepers. I would convert the sleepers to business class cars with pods similar to those found on international flights and upgrade the lounge car menus to include cold meals as well as whatever can be heated up in a microwave. I cannot think of a successful business that wants to do things just like they were done in the 1950s. But that's what those who insist on no changes to the long-distance trains seem to be saying. Eighty-five percent of the long-distance trains passengers ride coach class. I doubt that a sit-down meal in the dining car is high on their priority list.
CMStPnP I'm OK with the change and to me it appears to be a innovative move financially. Wow, I used Amtrak and "Innovative" in the same post.
Sounds like Anderson is intent on managing Amtrak like a real business. And that is innovative.
If I were Anderson I would get rid of the dining cars and sleepers. I would convert the sleepers to business class cars with pods similar to those found on international flights and upgrade the lounge car menus to include cold meals as well as whatever can be heated up in a microwave.
I cannot think of a successful business that wants to do things just like they were done in the 1950s. But that's what those who insist on no changes to the long-distance trains seem to be saying.
Eighty-five percent of the long-distance trains passengers ride coach class. I doubt that a sit-down meal in the dining car is high on their priority list.
Didn't the railroads run their passenger trains like a business? How did that work out for them?
So you cannot think of a successful business that wants to do things just like they were done in the 1950s. Is Greyhound still in business?
Cruse lines cerentainly have changed since the 50s. Passengers used to be happy with a porthole, but now they want a sliding glass door to a veranda. And passengers no longer have to dress up for dinner in the main dinning room, but have the option to go to the buffet in their shorts. Of course they can still get hot food. Maybe the cruse lines should act like a business and just serve cold food and make people sleep on deck chairs.
CMStPnP I would think all railfans would jump on but was met with a rather curious silence in these forums and a ho-hum.
ROBERT WILLISONHopefully the fall election's will solve some of these issues and restore funding that Amtrak needs to operate.
This is a service downgrade, plain and simple. At least when they whacked the diner off the Star, they cut prices on the sleeping car (since meals are technically included in the fare.
Are the sleeping cars a bigger money loser than coach? I would think the opposite when rooms can approach $1k on popular trains, where as a coach ticket is typically only $100-$200 for the same journey.
zugmann Maybe the engineer can make a few bucks heating up passengers' meals on the engine block?
Maybe the engineer can make a few bucks heating up passengers' meals on the engine block?
NKP guy Well, this is good news! Paying passengers will no longer have to wonder when the new Viewliner diners will finally be in service on the Lake Shore Limited because the answer is "never." These now-unneeded dining cars may be converted at probably modest cost into coaches. Futher benefits: Passengers will no longer have to endure moving to another car to eat their meals, only to find total strangers seated at their table. The dangers of hot food will be eliminated. Bonus: Passengers will now enjoy contemporary cold cuisine instead of the stodgy traditional dining and hospitality. National benefit: Amtrak will at last save enormous amounts of money; this will enable it to finally make a profit and earn the approval of a conservative-led Congress which has recently shown again its devotion to fiscal responsibility. Operational benefit: The inevitable fewer passengers will soon obviate the need for more than one sleeper and a coach or two. Another big savings here. Question: Which pizza shops in Rensselaer deliver to the trains at the railroad station?
Well, this is good news! Paying passengers will no longer have to wonder when the new Viewliner diners will finally be in service on the Lake Shore Limited because the answer is "never." These now-unneeded dining cars may be converted at probably modest cost into coaches.
Futher benefits: Passengers will no longer have to endure moving to another car to eat their meals, only to find total strangers seated at their table. The dangers of hot food will be eliminated. Bonus: Passengers will now enjoy contemporary cold cuisine instead of the stodgy traditional dining and hospitality.
National benefit: Amtrak will at last save enormous amounts of money; this will enable it to finally make a profit and earn the approval of a conservative-led Congress which has recently shown again its devotion to fiscal responsibility.
Operational benefit: The inevitable fewer passengers will soon obviate the need for more than one sleeper and a coach or two. Another big savings here.
Question: Which pizza shops in Rensselaer deliver to the trains at the railroad station?
Hopefully the fall election's will solve some of these issues and restore funding that Amtrak needs to operate.
A move in the correct direction. Diner service on these trains is lousy. Meals are overpriced. As a business, one has to be adapted and open to change. What worked 20 yrs ago may no longer be useful today. With high priced meals and food that is not all that good to begin with, fewer passengers are using the dining cars. Hope this new food service method is put in use on all long distance trains.
Good one Midland Mike...bravo!
Any fast food restaurant and even many food trucks can get you a hot meal. Amtrak has sunk to a new low. Perhaps the congressional cafeteria should only serve cold food to show how financially concerned they are.
I'm OK with the change and to me it appears to be a innovative move financially. Wow, I used Amtrak and "Innovative" in the same post.
Dude, you are right that the best Amtrak now offers is not really comparable to the former first class service. The sleeping compartments are smaller, and it is not as easy for a passenger in a roomette to get his berth down and back up as it was. The only thing going for the Amtrak bedrooms is the private shower.
Acela is the best Amtrak offers--but, to me, it does not compare well with the rotating, reclining parlor seats of old. The meal service is passable, but I found VIA's VIA 1 (which is now called "business") service much better.
Also, no longer is there one fare from Chicago to Los Angeles no matter which route you take (a stopover in Grand Canyon did cost more); fares on the Texas Eagle are higher than those on the Southwest Chief. Incidentally, Pullman space charges were the same (except for the Grand Canyon stopover), whether you took two nights or three nights to make the trip.
DeggestyOne of the pleasures of traveling first class has been that of eating a hot meal in the diner--in company with other diners who, often, provide pleasant conversation.
Miningman Bob Dorsch, Amtrak’s vice president of the Long Distance Service Line, is quoted in the release as saying, “Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient,” and that Amtrak looks forward to hearing from its customers about the change US Taxpayers actually pay this clown? It's over...move to Denmark.
Bob Dorsch, Amtrak’s vice president of the Long Distance Service Line, is quoted in the release as saying, “Our continued success depends on increasing customer satisfaction while becoming more efficient,” and that Amtrak looks forward to hearing from its customers about the change
US Taxpayers actually pay this clown?
It's over...move to Denmark.
My wife and I were subjected to the cold meals served on the Portland section of the Empire Builder; we did not complain for we had the hot meal service east of Spokane. (Oh, for the meal service that the SP&S provided into Portland!)
However, the idea of no longer having a diner on the New York-Chicago and the Washington-Chicago service is an atrocious idea. One of the pleasures of traveling first class has been that of eating a hot meal in the diner--in company with other diners who, often, provide pleasant conversation.
Incidentally, have all of the old single-level diners been retired? I ate on a Viewliner Diner on the Crescent on my latest trip (this month).
Even the airlines can provide a warm dinner.
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