sorry to hear this, as some people do not have computer or do not know how to work them. I have saved previous schedules and the last timetable, so I can refer to it and website to see if it has changed. If not, I still carry the old one with me. But I mostly ride MO River Runner and Lincoln Service, do plan to ride City of NOLA laster this summer so will be checking that one.
oltmannd So, we have a couple reasons we would like printed schedules. - the on-board experience, following the route and time keeping - trip planning We have a few solutions - kiosk printing at station in various forms - third party print and ship for fee - inclusion in seatback magazine - print at home I'm thinking the only really viable solution is "print at home" (or library, or Staples) and those that can't do this are just going to have to find a friend, relative or neighbor who can help them out. I think even having printable pdf schedules is going to be a thing of the past. Think about the cost to maintain them and even then, how often they are outdated before the next issue? So, what then? How can you easily do trip planning, have station and route info you need and be able to take hard copies with you if you like? For me the "gold standard" is https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml You want trip planning? It's there. You want train route info, click on the train number. You want station info? Click on the station info button. You want a route map? Click on the map view button. Then print to you heart's content.
So, we have a couple reasons we would like printed schedules.
- the on-board experience, following the route and time keeping
- trip planning
We have a few solutions
- kiosk printing at station in various forms
- third party print and ship for fee
- inclusion in seatback magazine
- print at home
I'm thinking the only really viable solution is "print at home" (or library, or Staples) and those that can't do this are just going to have to find a friend, relative or neighbor who can help them out.
I think even having printable pdf schedules is going to be a thing of the past. Think about the cost to maintain them and even then, how often they are outdated before the next issue?
So, what then? How can you easily do trip planning, have station and route info you need and be able to take hard copies with you if you like?
For me the "gold standard" is https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml
You want trip planning? It's there. You want train route info, click on the train number. You want station info? Click on the station info button. You want a route map? Click on the map view button.
Then print to you heart's content.
Good summary of the discussion, Don.
I don't think it should be hard to keep the PDF shedules updated and available. The railroad crews must have their own route timetables, so Amtrak's PR people can always piggyback on those.
For the future, I think inserting local route, schedules, and maps into the seatback magazines would work best for older cars (and older, less tech-savvy passengers). Seatback touchscreens would be ideal for new cars.
That Bahn website does look very well designed and user-friendly.
Amtrak's new website is not as bad as I first thought. I was used to the old one. Last week, when NER 94 north out of Richmond-Staples Mill was infinitely delayed (engine failure at Newport News), I was frantically trying to figure out alternatives to Boston (using other trains to connect in DC or NYC), and I overlooked the option on the Schedule page to "Get downloadable schedules for all routes," and didn't figure out an alternative until too late to board Train 92 (we got in line, but didn't make the cut for available seats, even in the Cafe Car). There were ticket agents at the station, but they were swamped helping others. Would the Bahn website have made it easier?
/Mr Lynn
Given the high percentage of people who have smart phones, tablets, etc., putting touch screens, etc. on seatbacks or anywhere on a train would not be cost effective.
One of the reasons Amtrak may have discontinued videos in the long-distance train lounge cars is because so many of the passengers can play a movie of their choice on their tablet, phone, etc.
I suspect a significant percentage of those who don't have a tablet, smart phone, PC, etc. are seniors. Not to worry. We will be gone in the not too distant future. And most of the young people, i.e. anyone under 70, have grown up accustomed to these devices.
The personal communication device revolution is just beginning. At some time in the future, hotels, cruise ships, etc. may remove phones from their rooms. Most of their guests will have a smart phone or at least a cell phone. This is largely true even today. For the few that don't the hotel could rent them a burner for a nominal fee.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
oltmannd zugmann oltmannd Just about every plane with a seat-back screen will show you route info and your position, speed, etc. Last time I rode amtrak, the on board wifi did just that. Cool. It's been a couple years since I've ridden. No WiFi then.
zugmann oltmannd Just about every plane with a seat-back screen will show you route info and your position, speed, etc. Last time I rode amtrak, the on board wifi did just that.
oltmannd Just about every plane with a seat-back screen will show you route info and your position, speed, etc.
Last time I rode amtrak, the on board wifi did just that.
Cool. It's been a couple years since I've ridden. No WiFi then.
Yes, the onboard train status and map via Amtrak Connect (wireless) is much improved. The maps still don't show names for bodies of water (my wife's frequent question: what river [or bay, or lake] is that?).
A touchscreen on the seat back with train status, maps, and timetables would be an ideal solution, obviating the need to bring your own wireless devices onboard (though of course many do anyway). But installing these would be a huge expense. Will the new coaches Amtrak has ordered to replace the aging Amfleet cars have them? For the older cars, putting maps and timetables into the seatback magazines would be a boon, IMO.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndFor me the "gold standard" is https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml You want trip planning? It's there. You want train route info, click on the train number. You want station info? Click on the station info button. You want a route map? Click on the map view button.
And, there is no reason Amtrak, et.al. couldn't contract with DB and have all this stuff work with US and Canadian schedules right now!
oltmanndJust about every plane with a seat-back screen will show you route info and your position, speed, etc.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
As for the on-board experience, Amtrak really needs to catch up with the airlines and cruise ship folk, and even some other railroads.
Just about every plane with a seat-back screen will show you route info and your position, speed, etc. Cruise ships have this info on one of the TV channels. Even Southwest airlines will show you this info on your own device via WiFi for free en route.
I rode a couple trains in New Zealand last year. (Both of which I highly recommend!) Both had on board displays with an audio route guide available from a headphone jack. No reason in this age that Amtrak could not do the same - using existing on-board WiFi to start.
https://blerfblog.blogspot.com/2017/07/transalpine-express.html
https://blerfblog.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-northern-explorer.html
MrLynn 'Costed-down smart devices'? 'Bluetooth'? 'Pairing algorithms'? Bluetooth is an erratic technology at best.
'Costed-down smart devices'? 'Bluetooth'? 'Pairing algorithms'? Bluetooth is an erratic technology at best.
This is not even remotely true. The only people who say that are people who don't use it.
Even more to my point: You don't use Bluetooth to get a train schedule, either.
With the emphasis on millenians could that trigger a possible age discrimination or handicapped law suit ?
Trains are different than airplanes. While a plane might make one or maybe even two stops en route, a train will make many. And the scheduled time of each stop is of interest and, sometimes, concern to passengers. If you're late at Oxnard, and later at Santa Barbara, it's a good idea to prepare to be late into Salinas and San Jose. As far as it goes, I'm not sure that printed timetables in stations are that important, but something should be available on the trains themselves.
All of this begs the question of who needs a timetable any way? Except of course railfans. The vast majority of people only want to know what time does my train leave and what time does my train arrive? In almost all instances anything else is superfluous.
Airlines have not published timetables for years. How do elderly noncomputer literate passengers get flight information? They call the airline or visit their travel agent. For Amtrak they can call the 800 number or visit a travel agent if they don't have a relative, friend or neighbor to help them get the information. By insisting that Amtrak maintain its old ways just to satisfy a small need it will never be able to grow.
runnerdude48Overmod referred to "government services". Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
He was referring to the department at a public library that provides government information and documents -- tax forms, for instance. There is no oxymoron whatsoever in what the library provides. Be more careful to understand the context before using cliches for comments.
One of the very particular concerns in this issue is that "just ask someone for help" business. If you are elderly and not particularly computer-literate, who do you ask for help you can understand, and by what methods do you go about doing the asking? It's not as simple as dialing 211 for 'the hookup' and asking the agent who answers to get you an Amtrak schedule from Cincinnati to Oakland.
Part of the difficulty 'so far' (as far as IxD is concerned) is that there is no one 'standard' to use with elderly non-computer-literate people. Just making large groups of such people aware of 'how to get schedules' can be difficult, first in making them aware that 'it can be done', then facilitating it when they actually start trying to do it and start encountering problems and confusion and delay.
Assuring that different "cohorts" all have simple experiences, almost by definition, requires complex systems and approaches overall. That is part of why the approach needs to be 'more complicated than that'.
runnerdude48 Overmod referred to "government services". Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
Overmod referred to "government services". Now there is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
Does that include such services as police & fire protection, public education, etc.??
You guys are making this way too complicated. If you don't know how to operate your computer and get the information for your trip online then just ask someone for help. Why make it more complicated than that?
zugmann Miningman Yes and I want the full time Government job of Amtrak Kiosk Stapler Re-Fill, Sanitizer, and Jam Fixer with full benefits and pension. Jam fixer would fall under MOW. Re-fill would fall under clerks. Sanitizer would be custodial.
Miningman Yes and I want the full time Government job of Amtrak Kiosk Stapler Re-Fill, Sanitizer, and Jam Fixer with full benefits and pension.
Jam fixer would fall under MOW. Re-fill would fall under clerks. Sanitizer would be custodial.
OK, so it was a dumb idea. Passengers will be advised to bring their own staplers.
How about binding the TTs into the complimentary magazines?
MiningmanYes and I want the full time Government job of Amtrak Kiosk Stapler Re-Fill, Sanitizer, and Jam Fixer with full benefits and pension.
"A stapler could be attached to the kiosk."
Yes and I want the full time Government job of Amtrak Kiosk Stapler Re-Fill, Sanitizer, and Jam Fixer with full benefits and pension.
MrLynnWhat is the ISTF?
Internet Social Task Force. It's the counterpart to the Internet Engineering Task Force that maintains the technical standards.
Overmod, I appreciate your detailed response to my kiosk suggestion. You make good points. Re folding, I don't think it's necessary; I printed out Amtrak's PDF from the website (once I found it) for our Virginia trip last week on the NEC on my HP color laser, and just stapled the upper-left corner of the four pages, then folded it to display the columns I wanted. A stapler could be attached to the kiosk. It could also be just b&w, which wouldn't look as good, but would be cheaper to maintain.
I rather doubt most non-computer travelers are going to think to 'ask Julie' about timetables, nor want to make special trips to Staples or somewhere to get them—unless they are train buffs (like me). I do think that mailed timetables would be a nice perk for Amtrak Guest Rewards customers (which I am—free train rides!); maybe even a complete System Timetable with periodic updates.
Here's another idea: Every Amtrak passenger faces a seat pocket with a magazine in it. I never look at the darned thing, but how about binding in the timetable for the route the magazine is on? This would be pretty easy to do, and probably the ads in the magazines would pay for them. Might actually get people like me to read them!
What is the ISTF?
oltmanndWhy not partner with a third party? You want printed timetables? You pay for Staples or Office Depot to print and pick up or mail. ..for a smallish fee. Could easily be part of Amtrak's website.
Sounds reasonable. If people have the time and disposable income to travel amtrak (a luxury most of us don't have), then paying a few bucks for a physical TT shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Both the idea of 'government services' print-on-demand and outsourcing to Staples/Kinkos are reasonable. The only major difficulty (aside from getting older clients to pay what may be upward of $2.50 per schedule page for the privilege) is going to be promoting the service in such a way as to get acceptable 'take rate'. First you need to make Amtrak customers specifically aware of ways to get printed schedules 'locally', then make it easy for them to place their order or find the appropriate facility and ask the right questions to get what they need. I am not sure that you'll get people to run errands to the library and then pay the duplication fee, when the 'alternative' is to get the thing made up and sent by mail straight to them effectively free. Which is really part of the point Mr. Lynn was making about preprinted schedules handed out or available in racks at stations.
I am TEMPTED to make x number of free schedules or an 'update service' available as a perquisite of the Amtrak rewards program, which essentially ensures that a customer getting a free printed schedule has already paid to ride Amtrak at least once... -
Why not make them printable at the local Library or Post Office as part of Government Services?
Why not partner with a third party? You want printed timetables? You pay for Staples or Office Depot to print and pick up or mail. ..for a smallish fee.
Could easily be part of Amtrak's website.
I think you're probably correct about the higher cost of bulk printing and distribution.
The chief concern I have with the kiosks is that the equipment to produce a reasonable-quality printed schedule is not trivial, and will not easily go either in the existing ticketing kiosks or in a module accessible from them that will stand up to the likely 'attention' at unattended stations and times.
An issue with laser printing is the bulk of the required engine, as there are at least four toner cartridges involved and most designs have the cartridge width spanning the printable width. While there is equipment that will reliably make and crease trifolds, it must be carefully located relative to the exit of the laser engine, and the output must be carefully guided out of the kiosk without jamming (which implies folding at right angles to paper exit from the laser engine). This is an awful lot of capital for a few paper schedules, but I don't think a more OTS solution (like a good commercial laser printer in a hardened enclosure with an accessible paper drawer) is likely to satisfy the "demand" long-term for unattended stations.
What I'm tempted to suggest is that in many cases 'print-on-demand' at the actual station is not the right answer, and in fact really wasn't the question most potential passengers would really be asking -- they would want the printed schedule when planning their trip, not when at the station looking for a train. And for that, a couple of fairly simple print-on-demand 'workstations' at L'Enfant Plaza with access to government franking privileges might be a reasonable answer.
The question then becomes how you make it easy for a non-computer-literate 'senior citizen' to request a copy of particular printed material easily -- and we spent hours and hours discussing ways to do this on the ISTF. One comparatively simple way is to add a few modules to Julie so that she can "converse" in a way that gets quickly to the right information and then the right mailing address for what may be wildly different 'user preferences', and store the 'transaction' information to be user-friendly ASAP if there is any subsequent problem. This is complicated back-end stuff, but it only has to be done once, and run from a minimum number of relatively secure (and maintainable) locations.
And yes, the 'mailable' result could just as easily be FedExed with a credit-card number or Amtrak account, or e-mailed as any desired format, or provided as an app coordinated with tracker, etc. etc. etc. ...
Overmod MrLynn Paper and ink printed at Schedule Kiosks would be a trivial expense.
MrLynn Paper and ink printed at Schedule Kiosks would be a trivial expense.
No, I have not done so. It's just a guess, but I think the kiosk route would be much cheaper than bulk printing (with frequent updates) of multiple schedules and distributing them to every station. Individual laser printing would be more expensive per document, but the quantity would be much, much smaller. Wouldn't hurt to do an analysis, though.
I am glad that my wife lured me into going on line by saying she would give me a new computer (I had been using her castoffs) if I went on line. Generally, I am able to get what I want, though I still ask one daughter for help on this or that.
Before a trip, I compose a schedule (and now, I have to work from the online information), and take it with me.
But, for people who have not gained access to the internet, it is an extremely difficult situation when it comes to planning a trip.
I trust that Amtrak will determine the saving--and publsih the result.
Johnny
Mr. Lynn, I like the idea of the kiosks. They would break down periodically but so do the Quick Track ticket machines but they get fixed (eventually) as would the schedule kiosks. But the whole thing is like Amtrak maintaining its outdated 1950s business plan. There are some people without computers but there is always someone to rely on to get them through. A child, grandchild, nephew, niece, librarian, neighbor etc. Amtrak shouldn't be catering to those who can't keep up with technology. The world will pass them by, which is already happening. I don't have a smart phone but I manage. Although I doubt that they printed the timetables themselves, Amtrak does save the contract costs of the print job. The current system works fine for the vast majority of people so that should be what stays. No need to go backwards.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.