One point that I haven't seen mentioned (or I missed it) is Beech Grove shops had both locomotive and passenger car buildings co-located, making for a smaller footprint and fewer facilities to maintain.
In regards to earlier postings, although the PRR closed the Altoona passenger shops in the mid-50's, it kept the Renova Passenger car shops open until sometime in the mid 60's to make major repairs. I can't rmember if it was 1962 or 1964 that it closed down. However, passenger cars were scrapped in Renova until about the start of Amtrak.
CMStPnP ROBERT WILLISON We purchased the former sp 10/6 sleeper the 9001, built for the post war sunset limited. The car had retained much of it's orginal sp look with some 1970 decor added in. Isn't there a generally agreed upon rule though that if a mechanical breakdown occurs on the car that limits it's movement..........the host railroad it is on currently makes a repair to get the car moving again and rebills the owner OR does that only apply to freight cars?
ROBERT WILLISON We purchased the former sp 10/6 sleeper the 9001, built for the post war sunset limited. The car had retained much of it's orginal sp look with some 1970 decor added in.
Isn't there a generally agreed upon rule though that if a mechanical breakdown occurs on the car that limits it's movement..........the host railroad it is on currently makes a repair to get the car moving again and rebills the owner OR does that only apply to freight cars?
At this point it only applies to freight cars, once did apply to passenger but they are no longer considered interchange equipment. The billing you refer is in place only if both parties are signatories to the AAR interchange agreement.
ROBERT WILLISONWe purchased the former sp 10/6 sleeper the 9001, built for the post war sunset limited. The car had retained much of it's orginal sp look with some 1970 decor added in.
What I read about this in the past was either in Private Varnish publication or on the AAPRCO website somewhere. The article was pretty clear among several owners they though Beech Grove did meatball surgury compared to quality repairs. Would be curious what the folks at Illinois Railway Museum think as they have a number of former Amtrak cars. Also, I have seen it advertised on Ozark Mountain Railcar when they put up a ex-ATSF car for sale that never ran outside of ATSF ownership, car "impeccably" maintained at Tokpeka Shops. Pretty sure that is a coded language dig at ex-Amtrak cars. However read more than one comment from AARPCO members they had high respect for ATSF passenger car maintenence at Topeka shops.
CMStPnP ROBERT WILLISON I never knew the shop was open to private car work. Your making that conclusion. It could very well be they bought the car from Amtrak and the maintenence records show where it was maintained. I know on DB in Germany the practice was to put the maintence log for the passenger car in the electrical cabinet in the vestibule of the car, there was a metal sleve for it in the electrical cabinet which was locked by a conductors key. No idea what American Railroads do but I would suspect similar. Also in some cases of Private Car ownership, if the repair is to fix a condition that limits the cars movement (and makes it more expensive to ferry), they might not have a choice on what shops to use.
ROBERT WILLISON I never knew the shop was open to private car work.
Your making that conclusion. It could very well be they bought the car from Amtrak and the maintenence records show where it was maintained. I know on DB in Germany the practice was to put the maintence log for the passenger car in the electrical cabinet in the vestibule of the car, there was a metal sleve for it in the electrical cabinet which was locked by a conductors key. No idea what American Railroads do but I would suspect similar.
Also in some cases of Private Car ownership, if the repair is to fix a condition that limits the cars movement (and makes it more expensive to ferry), they might not have a choice on what shops to use.
Once the deal was finalized, Amtrak provided a one way move to your location at the new owners expense. Once at your facility, the car had to be reinspected by a qualified Amtrak car inspector. All defects had to be repaired before Amtrak would move the car again. The car would undergo a 40 year inspection, including the trucks, side seal's, frame and major operating components. If the a major defect was found and could not be repaired, the car was basically condemned and would never be handled by Amtrak. The car had to heped and modern plumbing and holding tanks installed.
We purchased the former sp 10/6 sleeper the 9001, built for the post war sunset limited. The car had retained much of it's orginal sp look with some 1970 decor added in.
ROBERT WILLISONI never knew the shop was open to private car work.
I never knew the shop was open to private car work. The pv cars owners I talked to and the experience I had with private shops we're very mixed. Thier are some very good shops out thier and some with very questionable business ethics.
I can't imagine the work at beech Grove would be inexpensive, being an all Union shop. All I can say is that Amtrak and thier various shop have kept a fleet of ever aging equipment road worthy. I can not recall ( correct me if I am wrong ) any major Amtrak incident do to equipment failure.
My guess is that Amtrak is to stringent on pv owners, keeping many cars from turning a wheel on a Amtrak' train.
If you talk with Private Passenger Car Owners, they all avoid Beech Grove, like it is a Leper Colony and the criticism is centered around the lack of quality in their repair approach. You'll hear raves about ATSF Topeka shops and hear them praise other private shops but nobody will say anything positive about Beech Grove.
CMStPnP ROBERT WILLISON Passenger car servicing ended in 1971. You would think that was true because it was when Amtrak was formed. I would agree that major operations of the Passenger car shops ended before 1971. Milwaukee Road was in the passenger business and had a passenger department until at least July 31, 1972 out of Milwaukee (running the Milwaukee to Watertown route at it's own expense). Further they had a fleet of office cars they maintained in Milwaukee like most other major railroads so there were some in the Passenger department post 1971 to maintain and service cars........though I do not know how many. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmwde3Zju8 See "Cannonball" on below link: http://www.schaarcommunications.com/brookfieldrails.html
ROBERT WILLISON Passenger car servicing ended in 1971.
You would think that was true because it was when Amtrak was formed. I would agree that major operations of the Passenger car shops ended before 1971.
Milwaukee Road was in the passenger business and had a passenger department until at least July 31, 1972 out of Milwaukee (running the Milwaukee to Watertown route at it's own expense). Further they had a fleet of office cars they maintained in Milwaukee like most other major railroads so there were some in the Passenger department post 1971 to maintain and service cars........though I do not know how many.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmwde3Zju8
See "Cannonball" on below link:
http://www.schaarcommunications.com/brookfieldrails.html
CMStPnP: Agree. I think the maintenance record of the Milwaukee shops looks pretty good compared to the shabby condition of former NYC cars running on PC passenger trains, if that is any indication of the quality of work. Or do folks think those PC passenger trains were exemplary?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Thier ya go,the cannonball continued the Milwaukee road proud history of passenger service.
Kinda of like the Hooterville cannonball, can't keep a good train down. Lol
ROBERT WILLISONPassenger car servicing ended in 1971.
RME schlimm Thanks. So now we know. Political. Yes, but why say this disparagingly. From what I can see, Hartke was one of the first on record to confront Roger Lewis over the "Amtrak is only to help phase out those money-losing passenger trains" secret agenda. Shouldn't he get credit for that in particular?
schlimm Thanks. So now we know. Political.
Yes, but why say this disparagingly. From what I can see, Hartke was one of the first on record to confront Roger Lewis over the "Amtrak is only to help phase out those money-losing passenger trains" secret agenda. Shouldn't he get credit for that in particular?
In my book, the word "political" isn't a term of contempt, as it is with so many forum members. Sen. Hartke was outstanding, but not above using his influence to benefit his own state, which is, in fact, commendable since it also was good for Amtrak.
For what I can find the last batch of passenger cars were built for the four generation of Hiawatha trains between 1933- 1947. No cars were produced thier after that date.
By 1975, when Amtrak was looking for a shop. The Menomonee complex was freight and Diesel shop only. Passenger car building was in its very distsnce past. Passenger car servicing ended in 1971. Even the railroad itself only had 7 years to live and had been on life support since is failed merger with c&nw 1969/70.
I'm not saying it wasn't a tremendous facility in it's time. But I doubt Amtrak ever considered it.
schlimmThanks. So now we know. Political.
ROBERT WILLISONso why is the Milwaukee shop a better choice? How does it compare to beech Grove? How is it better? Just wondering?
Well there is no comparison to Beech Grove, in my view. Milwaukee Shops would have won hands down only because they fabricated everything onsite including the wheel sets, trucks, seats, upholstery, flooring, trim and every single part used in Passenger Car construction. The Milwaukee shops complex manufactured and stored a good portion of the railroad's inventory for the most part. Rails, Ties, Tie Plates, Spikes. They ordered the rails, ties and tie plates from other firms but had their own creasote plant for the ties........which the EPA had to cleanup after. Massive shops complex. They also built freight cars from the ground up in Milwaukee. There is a good youtube.com video on the Milwaukee Shops complex showing them constructing freight cars. They calculated they saved I think it was about $7 million building most of the Hiawatha trainsets in house vs ordering them from exterior car companies. They did order specialized cars like the Dome Cars from Pullman, they of course bought the sleepers and LD Skytops for the Olympian Hiawatha from Pullman as well. Milwaukee had problems with curved glass and hence on the Twin Cities Skytops they only use flat glass cut angularly which makes it look curved but it is straight.........this is probably the reason they outsourced the dome cars and LD Olympian Hiawatha Skytops.....just a guess though.
Beech Grove has to import parts and is not self contained. However, understandable why they picked Beech Grove over Milwaukee. Milwaukee shops were older and spread out over far more acreage so would have been more costly to operate.
BTW, Avalon Railcar has a facebook page with pictures it looks as large as Beech Grove on the inside but maybe it is the photo perspective.
C&O must think Bear, DE is "chopped liver" (1902 PRR Shop Complex) and talent to man the shops can just walk in off the street. ATK got a good facility with excellent staff and it saved their butts in the early years and got them beyond bubblegum and bandaids for tired equipment of many pedigrees. Then the politician penny pinchers, non-railroad mismanagers, unions and the rapid brain drain almost did-in the ex-Big4/NYC/PC shops. (you can't lay off people like they kept doing and expect them to stay)
Beech Grove also did passenger car overhauls during the Penn Central era and also there is a large diesel shop there as well that can handle several units at the same time. I've been in the Beech Grove shops many times over the years and the work flow from one building to the next until the car leaves is quite impressive.
schlimmThanks. So now we know. Political. Sen. Hartke helped start Amtrak, helped get Medicare, Medicaid, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed and was an early opponent of the wars in SE Asia. He also worked hard to get a bill passed that got dialysis centers established more widely, saving many lives.
The very antithisis of what the Senate is on both sides of the aisle today.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks. So now we know. Political. Sen. Hartke helped start Amtrak, helped get Medicare, Medicaid, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed and was an early opponent of the wars in SE Asia. He also worked hard to get a bill passed that got dialysis centers established more widely, saving many lives.
https://books.google.com/books?id=aBqwDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA259&dq=%22Beech+grove%22++hartke&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiE75jFiMTVAhVj74MKHYqgBlsQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Beech%20grove%22%20%20hartke&f=false
Also central, also on Amtrak routes and very experienced at car building and in an historically strong, union manufacturing city. Maybe no better than the NYC's shop, but as good.
While we are on the subject of passenger car shops. what about Bear?
Johnny
My personal preference goes to the B&O's Mount Clare Shops. They rebuilt all the coach and non-Pullman cars that were used on The Royal Blue Limited, The Capitol Limited, The National Limited and The Cincinnatian. However, I do believe by the time Amtrak was becoming a reality the passenger shop had been closed for several years.
schlimm Deggesty That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds Sorry Johnny. I apologize for my error. It was all in good fun referring to our recent peeves about homonyms. It was Robert Willison who wrote beach, but on one quoted post (the one I was looking at) it showed up under your name. This seems to happen on Trains Forum software. And that explains why Beech Grove, not Altoona, though Milwaukee shops would have been a better choice, IMO.
Deggesty That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds
That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds
Sorry Johnny. I apologize for my error. It was all in good fun referring to our recent peeves about homonyms. It was Robert Willison who wrote beach, but on one quoted post (the one I was looking at) it showed up under your name. This seems to happen on Trains Forum software.
And that explains why Beech Grove, not Altoona, though Milwaukee shops would have been a better choice, IMO.
There is was the old Pullman plant in S Chicago and The old Budd Car plant in Philly.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so. obviously Amtrak took beach Grove The question is why, not does. Obviously that choice was made. But was it wise? Altoona and the Milwaukee shops actually designed and manufactured or rebuilt passenger cars. Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny) Grove do that? Maybe they did and still do rebuilds, but given the problems with Viewliner 2 cars, would not perhaps an in-house builder have been useful?
ROBERT WILLISON schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so. obviously Amtrak took beach Grove
schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so.
Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use.
As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so.
obviously Amtrak took beach Grove
The question is why, not does. Obviously that choice was made. But was it wise? Altoona and the Milwaukee shops actually designed and manufactured or rebuilt passenger cars. Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny) Grove do that? Maybe they did and still do rebuilds, but given the problems with Viewliner 2 cars, would not perhaps an in-house builder have been useful?
As for the prr Altoona shops, the prr closed down the all but the diesel shops in 1956.The car shop was transferred to the new Samuel rea shop in hollidaysburg pa. It focused on building and shopping freight cars. The facility turned out thousands of freight cars for the prr, pc, and Conrail. It never produced passenger cars. In 1975 it was still active frt car shop for the Penn Central and not available for purchase for Amtrak.
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