Whats the history here and why Beech Grove? Why not have the main car shop in Philly or Chicago?
What car shops were there in Chicago and Philadelphia?
The New York Central had a shop in Beech Grove--and it was closer to the center of long distance car usage than any other existing shop. So, why build a new car shop instead of using an existing faciilty? At the time that this facility was chosen, there was daily passenger train service to Indianapolis.
Johnny
Deggesty At the time that this facility was chosen, there was daily passenger train service to Indianapolis.
At the time that this facility was chosen, there was daily passenger train service to Indianapolis.
There still is.
An "expensive model collector"
Deggesty What car shops were there in Chicago and Philadelphia? The New York Central had a shop in Beech Grove--and it was closer to the center of long distance car usage than any other existing shop. So, why build a new car shop instead of using an existing faciilty? At the time that this facility was chosen, there was daily passenger train service to Indianapolis.
Didn't the PRR build and maintain passenger cars around Altoona? The Milwaukee Road built superb cars in Milwaukee. The C&NW had its California Avenue Shops.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I think thier we're few reasons why Amtrak selected the former beach Grove shop.
Fisrt it was a major NYC shop, that did major over hauls on steam, diesels freight and passenger cars. The shop was also large enough to handle the ex atsf hi level cars and future super liners cars ordered in 1974.
The shop was Centrally located on two Amtrak lines, NYC to KC, the National limited. And the Chicago to Cincinnati James Whitcomb riely, which morphed into the wasington- chicago George Washington and later the Cardinal.
I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus.
schlimmDidn't the PRR build and maintain passenger cars around Altoona? The Milwaukee Road built superb cars in Milwaukee. The C&NW had its California Avenue Shops. Add Quote to your Post
Off topic a little but....
A lot of the Milwaukee's equipment was auctioned off locally and formed the basis of firms such as Northern Railcar (not sure if it is still in operation). Avalon Railcar just West of Miller Stadium and the VA grounds on the former Milwaukee Road Airline stub did the VIA Rail Canada Prestige Class cars along with some other rebuilds recently..........Wikipedia says Avalon Railcar was formed by former employees of Northern Railcar in 2000, they are still doing fairly good business in 2017 with mostly private and museum railcars but some public firm railcars as well.
If the state ever gets into the owning passenger cars they have a decent firm in Milwaukee to contractually maintain them fairly close to the Amtrak Depot............they do not need Talgo, even though Talgo is now rebuilding subway cars for someone in Milwaukee at the same former Tower Automotive plant they whined about not being able to use in the lawsuit with the State of Wisconsin. The Tower Plant is the former A.O. Smith plant that used to make auto frames for Detroit and I believe it is accessed via the former Milwaukee Road North line that branches off the main at North Milwaukee.
ROBERT WILLISON I think thier we're few reasons why Amtrak selected the former beach Grove shop. Fisrt it was a major NYC shop, that did major over hauls on steam, diesels freight and passenger cars. The shop was also large enough to handle the ex atsf hi level cars and future super liners cars ordered in 1974. The shop was Centrally located on two Amtrak lines, NYC to KC, the National limited. And the Chicago to Cincinnati James Whitcomb riely, which morphed into the wasington- chicago George Washington and later the Cardinal. I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus.
Deggestyobviously
DeggestyI think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use.
As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so.
schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so.
Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use.
ROBERT WILLISON schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so. obviously Amtrak took beach Grove
obviously Amtrak took beach Grove
The question is why, not does. Obviously that choice was made. But was it wise? Altoona and the Milwaukee shops actually designed and manufactured or rebuilt passenger cars. Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny) Grove do that? Maybe they did and still do rebuilds, but given the problems with Viewliner 2 cars, would not perhaps an in-house builder have been useful?
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON schlimm Deggesty I think the Penn Central opted to keep the former Altoona shop for its own. Making beach Grove surplus. And, if Penn Central chose to keep the Altoona shop, it obviously was not available for Amtrak to use. As I recall, PC/CR only kept part of Altoona in operation, not the passenger car shop because it was no longer needed. Obviously, if so. obviously Amtrak took beach Grove The question is why, not does. Obviously that choice was made. But was it wise? Altoona and the Milwaukee shops actually designed and manufactured or rebuilt passenger cars. Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny) Grove do that? Maybe they did and still do rebuilds, but given the problems with Viewliner 2 cars, would not perhaps an in-house builder have been useful?
As for the prr Altoona shops, the prr closed down the all but the diesel shops in 1956.The car shop was transferred to the new Samuel rea shop in hollidaysburg pa. It focused on building and shopping freight cars. The facility turned out thousands of freight cars for the prr, pc, and Conrail. It never produced passenger cars. In 1975 it was still active frt car shop for the Penn Central and not available for purchase for Amtrak.
There is was the old Pullman plant in S Chicago and The old Budd Car plant in Philly.
That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds
Deggesty That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds
Sorry Johnny. I apologize for my error. It was all in good fun referring to our recent peeves about homonyms. It was Robert Willison who wrote beach, but on one quoted post (the one I was looking at) it showed up under your name. This seems to happen on Trains Forum software.
And that explains why Beech Grove, not Altoona, though Milwaukee shops would have been a better choice, IMO.
schlimm Deggesty That ( Did Beech (not 'beach' Johnny)) is not my error. So far, I have referred to trees, not playgrounds Sorry Johnny. I apologize for my error. It was all in good fun referring to our recent peeves about homonyms. It was Robert Willison who wrote beach, but on one quoted post (the one I was looking at) it showed up under your name. This seems to happen on Trains Forum software. And that explains why Beech Grove, not Altoona, though Milwaukee shops would have been a better choice, IMO.
My personal preference goes to the B&O's Mount Clare Shops. They rebuilt all the coach and non-Pullman cars that were used on The Royal Blue Limited, The Capitol Limited, The National Limited and The Cincinnatian. However, I do believe by the time Amtrak was becoming a reality the passenger shop had been closed for several years.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
While we are on the subject of passenger car shops. what about Bear?
ROBERT WILLISONso why is the Milwaukee shop a better choice? How does it compare to beech Grove? How is it better? Just wondering?
Also central, also on Amtrak routes and very experienced at car building and in an historically strong, union manufacturing city. Maybe no better than the NYC's shop, but as good.
https://books.google.com/books?id=aBqwDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA259&dq=%22Beech+grove%22++hartke&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiE75jFiMTVAhVj74MKHYqgBlsQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Beech%20grove%22%20%20hartke&f=false
Thanks. So now we know. Political. Sen. Hartke helped start Amtrak, helped get Medicare, Medicaid, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed and was an early opponent of the wars in SE Asia. He also worked hard to get a bill passed that got dialysis centers established more widely, saving many lives.
schlimmThanks. So now we know. Political. Sen. Hartke helped start Amtrak, helped get Medicare, Medicaid, the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act passed and was an early opponent of the wars in SE Asia. He also worked hard to get a bill passed that got dialysis centers established more widely, saving many lives.
The very antithisis of what the Senate is on both sides of the aisle today.
Beech Grove also did passenger car overhauls during the Penn Central era and also there is a large diesel shop there as well that can handle several units at the same time. I've been in the Beech Grove shops many times over the years and the work flow from one building to the next until the car leaves is quite impressive.
C&O must think Bear, DE is "chopped liver" (1902 PRR Shop Complex) and talent to man the shops can just walk in off the street. ATK got a good facility with excellent staff and it saved their butts in the early years and got them beyond bubblegum and bandaids for tired equipment of many pedigrees. Then the politician penny pinchers, non-railroad mismanagers, unions and the rapid brain drain almost did-in the ex-Big4/NYC/PC shops. (you can't lay off people like they kept doing and expect them to stay)
Well there is no comparison to Beech Grove, in my view. Milwaukee Shops would have won hands down only because they fabricated everything onsite including the wheel sets, trucks, seats, upholstery, flooring, trim and every single part used in Passenger Car construction. The Milwaukee shops complex manufactured and stored a good portion of the railroad's inventory for the most part. Rails, Ties, Tie Plates, Spikes. They ordered the rails, ties and tie plates from other firms but had their own creasote plant for the ties........which the EPA had to cleanup after. Massive shops complex. They also built freight cars from the ground up in Milwaukee. There is a good youtube.com video on the Milwaukee Shops complex showing them constructing freight cars. They calculated they saved I think it was about $7 million building most of the Hiawatha trainsets in house vs ordering them from exterior car companies. They did order specialized cars like the Dome Cars from Pullman, they of course bought the sleepers and LD Skytops for the Olympian Hiawatha from Pullman as well. Milwaukee had problems with curved glass and hence on the Twin Cities Skytops they only use flat glass cut angularly which makes it look curved but it is straight.........this is probably the reason they outsourced the dome cars and LD Olympian Hiawatha Skytops.....just a guess though.
Beech Grove has to import parts and is not self contained. However, understandable why they picked Beech Grove over Milwaukee. Milwaukee shops were older and spread out over far more acreage so would have been more costly to operate.
BTW, Avalon Railcar has a facebook page with pictures it looks as large as Beech Grove on the inside but maybe it is the photo perspective.
schlimmThanks. So now we know. Political.
Yes, but why say this disparagingly. From what I can see, Hartke was one of the first on record to confront Roger Lewis over the "Amtrak is only to help phase out those money-losing passenger trains" secret agenda. Shouldn't he get credit for that in particular?
For what I can find the last batch of passenger cars were built for the four generation of Hiawatha trains between 1933- 1947. No cars were produced thier after that date.
By 1975, when Amtrak was looking for a shop. The Menomonee complex was freight and Diesel shop only. Passenger car building was in its very distsnce past. Passenger car servicing ended in 1971. Even the railroad itself only had 7 years to live and had been on life support since is failed merger with c&nw 1969/70.
I'm not saying it wasn't a tremendous facility in it's time. But I doubt Amtrak ever considered it.
RME schlimm Thanks. So now we know. Political. Yes, but why say this disparagingly. From what I can see, Hartke was one of the first on record to confront Roger Lewis over the "Amtrak is only to help phase out those money-losing passenger trains" secret agenda. Shouldn't he get credit for that in particular?
schlimm Thanks. So now we know. Political.
In my book, the word "political" isn't a term of contempt, as it is with so many forum members. Sen. Hartke was outstanding, but not above using his influence to benefit his own state, which is, in fact, commendable since it also was good for Amtrak.
ROBERT WILLISONPassenger car servicing ended in 1971.
You would think that was true because it was when Amtrak was formed. I would agree that major operations of the Passenger car shops ended before 1971.
Milwaukee Road was in the passenger business and had a passenger department until at least July 31, 1972 out of Milwaukee (running the Milwaukee to Watertown route at it's own expense). Further they had a fleet of office cars they maintained in Milwaukee like most other major railroads so there were some in the Passenger department post 1971 to maintain and service cars........though I do not know how many.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjmwde3Zju8
See "Cannonball" on below link:
http://www.schaarcommunications.com/brookfieldrails.html
Thier ya go,the cannonball continued the Milwaukee road proud history of passenger service.
Kinda of like the Hooterville cannonball, can't keep a good train down. Lol
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