RME zkr123 Would Amtrak ever consider adding an Auto Train service to Vegas? Ideally from Chicago or Denver. I am beginning to wonder something just a bit different. What if Amtrak offered a service that would coordinate or run a dedicated train of auto carriers separate from an "Auto Train" passenger consist, on a schedule either constituting a 'second section' of the passenger train or providing some guaranteed arrival time either before or reasonably after the passenger time? (No real reason why that service couldn't run with freight power and ordinary senior railroad crews, is there?)
zkr123 Would Amtrak ever consider adding an Auto Train service to Vegas? Ideally from Chicago or Denver.
I am beginning to wonder something just a bit different. What if Amtrak offered a service that would coordinate or run a dedicated train of auto carriers separate from an "Auto Train" passenger consist, on a schedule either constituting a 'second section' of the passenger train or providing some guaranteed arrival time either before or reasonably after the passenger time? (No real reason why that service couldn't run with freight power and ordinary senior railroad crews, is there?)
The guys in Omaha already offer a permutation of what you are suggesting. UP doesn't deal with consumers but they have a "retail" partner who does.
ShipCarsNow (UP)
https://www.shipcarsnow.com/index.html
Ready Logistics
http://readylogistics.com/
Now I guess the suggestion is Chicago to Denver, which might have some appeal.
Some of the recent comments ignore a few things that Congress baked into the original Amtrak concept, and are still part of the equation, whether you like it or not:
1. Amtrak was set up by Congress to provide year-round passenger rail service. Not to set up one way service, yielding the reverse travel to airlines. It was not set up for seasonal travel, although seasonal fluctuations are unavoidable in many, if not most, markets.
2. It doesn't matter where you try to establish a new Auto Train service. There is no Amtrak budget to buy new auto carrying equipment and finance the creation of new terminals with auto handling facilities for a speculative new experimental service. If you have a good idea (arguable, but let's assume), plus absolutely no money, then we can create an algebraic equation. If B equals Brainstorm, then 1B x $0 = 0.
Tom
American-European Express started in 1989, bankrupt in 1991. AOE started in 1991, went bankrupt in 2006, well before the economic crisis of 2008. GrandLuxe took over and later went bankrupt. Pattern?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The point I elaborated on was a narrow vision how AOE understood the market no longer wanted to waste another day and night traveling to get their vacation going. To the same extent, this would support an Auto Train concept, at least during the summer season, between CHI-DEN, allowing travelers to avoid the tedious drive and still have their family car with them. AOE sold-out and became Grand Luxe, just before the economy creashed in 2007.
Cute! That would go hand-in-glove with a former Amtrak CEO claiming to the world how "Amtrak was on a glidepath towards solvency."
Frankly, AOE did understand the market re the point I have made and reiterated here today.
Excuse me, but I was strictly referencing how AOE clearly understood how the market had changed, which is why they flew travelers to Albuquerque, Salt Lake, etc. for no more than 1 night aboard between any destination vs. traditional 2 nights coming out of CHI or west coast.
If I remember correctly, AOE was purchased by Colorado Railcar and re-named Grand Luxe; over expanded right before the Great Recession.
Your points are fully appreciated; however, one of the lingering issues with Amtrak has been its fixation to settle on the routes it was given in 1971. (Auto Train was pushed by Claytor's proforma to Congress in 1983--the last new long distance train/route).
Amtrak needs to learn how to re-structure itself to serve seasonal destinations.
(FYI-your response did not come up on Disquis)
Airline service to and from Las Vegas so competitive. I live 4 hrs into California from Las Vegas and I can drive it round trip for less than round trip air. But sometimes that trip time can double depending on travel dates as i-15 backs up in those areas where it is only 2 lanes yet. Taxis, Uber, Lyft all available in Las Vegas. MGM branded casinos on strip now charging for valet AND self parking. If you want to tour places outside of Las VEgas like Hoover Dam you might consider renting a car or taking a day tour.
Any conversation about rail passenger service to Las Vegas seems to me entirely idle. The market has gotten along without it very well since when -- the 1990s and the Desert Wind?
Auto train? "High-speed rail"? Let's see the market for an Amtrak-style plug first.
Resurrection of Midwest-Florida Auto Train service is a recurring topic on the Amtrak Unlimited site and here. It's been discussed to death, and the practical realities of scheduling, routing, equipment availability, cooperation from host railroads, support from appropriate State governments, etc. always seem to collide with these dreams. If you live to see it, that means you are very young indeed.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Actually, the market they need to get back into, and it would still require equipment investment(and possibly route upgrading) is from the Midwest to Sanford, FL. Louisville, KY was not the optimal starting point, but somewhere in Indiana would be much more practical, say half way between Chicago, IL and Indianapolis, IN, plenty of land available...and it's close enough to Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio that those people could drive in one day and still catch the train...but would they is the question, hence why you perform marketing surveys.
Actually, the market they need to get back into, and it would still require equipment investment(and possibly route upgrading) is from the Midwest to Sanford, FL. Louisville, KY was not the optimal starting point, but somewhere in Indiana would be much more practical, say half way between Chicago, IL and Indianapolis, IN, plenty of land available...and it's close enough to Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio that those people could drive in one day and still catch the train...but would they is the question, hence why you perform marketing surveys.
The route would need major improvements along with permission from CSX/NS. Good luck with that!
I'm not rerally arguing with the basic concept. I just think it would be a bit of a hard sell to convince the freight railroads that they need to cooperate with this, and to operate the auto-carrying freight train in such a disciplined way that the owners of the automobiles can count on their cars being there when they want them. Furthermore, the current Auto Train carries as many as 600 passengers and 300 autos in one consist (round numbers). I don't think it's likely that you'll find any market that comes anywhere near these numbers, much less exceed them, in the foreseeable future, so I fail to see the need for separating the auto carrying portion from the passenger carrying portion. It would just complicate the operation and make for greater problems in the event that something happens to delay the passengers or the autos.
ACYYou have just described a freight train, which is not part of Amtrak's mission.
Yeesh, think about it a moment, it's freight equipment as an explicit adjunct to passenger service. And I'm not saying Amtrak has to run it themselves, just coordinate it. This doesn't have to be 'MHCs for automobiles' (although I thought then, and still do, that there's a valid role for MHCs on Amtrak trains, quite distinct from what could be done in Viewliner baggage cars...)
Amtrak's "mission" is not just to move pax between stations. That's part of the attitude that has caused trouble with dining service, 'attendant' morale, and a number of other issues. If customers want to 'take their cars along' when they travel Amtrak, why wouldn't Amtrak want to coordinate something that lets them do that?
You have just described a freight train, which is not part of Amtrak's mission. Whether somebody else might do it is a different question.
zkr123Would Amtrak ever consider adding an Auto Train service to Vegas? Ideally from Chicago or Denver.
The Auto Train had a $2.7 million operating profit in 2015. And an average load factor of 73 per cent. Even after adding a reasonable albeit unknown amount for depreciation, interest, etc., the Auto Train probably covered all of its expenses in 2015.
The Auto Train is the only long distance train to have had an operating profit. It may even have broken even on a fully allocated cost basis.
Don't mess with success, especially for a company that has not had many if any commercial winners when the total cost picture is considered.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
I hope this thread isn't going to devolve into the old "Why doesn't the Auto Train go farther North (or South)?" discussion. That poor old horse has been beaten to death too many times already.
Philly Amtrak FanI wouldn't mind taking the current Auto Train and having a second stop somewhere north (New Jersey, somewhere halfway between New York and Philly) so passengers from those areas don't have to drive down to Virginia to get on it. The problem is you'd have to replace the Superliners with Viewliners to fit through Baltimore's tunnel.
Auto racks wouldn't fit either. The Lorton location gives those from further North a relatively easy one day drive to Lorton and thus a feeling of 'accomplishment' in driving to their vacation. Likewise Sanford being in Central Florida also gives them the sense of accomplishment in a easy drive to their ultimate destination.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wouldn't mind taking the current Auto Train and having a second stop somewhere north (New Jersey, somewhere halfway between New York and Philly) so passengers from those areas don't have to drive down to Virginia to get on it. The problem is you'd have to replace the Superliners with Viewliners to fit through Baltimore's tunnel.
Nothing speaks market knowlege like bankruptcy.
ACY SuperChief49: If AOE had such a great understanding of the market, why aren't they running today? Tom
SuperChief49:
If AOE had such a great understanding of the market, why aren't they running today?
Exactly. What lesson is there to be learned from them on rail cruises? It seems they failed. In any case, AOE was tapping an entirely different market than Amtrak's mission.
SuperChief49 Rather than discounting the "Auto Train" during the off summer Florida season, Amtrak should have produced a proforma to evidence the revenue generating capacity of utilizing the consists for summer seasonal service between Chicago-Denver, or better, Colorado Springs. Either city in Colorado is the gateway to the many popular western national parks that used to be so well served by summer trains, such as to Yellowstone. What should have also been learned is how the former American Orient Express understood the market; how travelers did not want to waste the time running overnight just to get into position to vacation. That is why my trips on the AOE in 2004 started in Santa Fe and Salt Lake City. However, the market would have embraced families traveling with their autos to maximize their vacationing in the national parks.
Rather than discounting the "Auto Train" during the off summer Florida season, Amtrak should have produced a proforma to evidence the revenue generating capacity of utilizing the consists for summer seasonal service between Chicago-Denver, or better, Colorado Springs. Either city in Colorado is the gateway to the many popular western national parks that used to be so well served by summer trains, such as to Yellowstone.
What should have also been learned is how the former American Orient Express understood the market; how travelers did not want to waste the time running overnight just to get into position to vacation. That is why my trips on the AOE in 2004 started in Santa Fe and Salt Lake City. However, the market would have embraced families traveling with their autos to maximize their vacationing in the national parks.
Your not going to be able to flip the Auto Train to whatever route you choose in the Summer. It's not a normal Amtrak train, it has no intermediate stops and it is considerably longer in length as well as starting and stopping it takes more time. Hence the tenant frieght railroad would balk about the different characteristics of train handling. Liability Insurance requirements for an Auto Train are likely greater as well than a normal Amtrak train due to the significant property in the back being carried (private autos).
Actually, up through the mid-1950s, the private railroads worked quite well with The Pullman Company to optimally utilize dedicated consists between seasonal trains. What comes to mind is how the same consist was used during the winter as the Seaboard's "Orange Blossom Special" between NYC-Miami; during the summer, as the PRR/NYNH&H/B&M/MC "Bar Harbor Express" between Washington-NYC-Maine.
Whether we're talking about Las Vegas, Phoenix, or some other destination, it's unlikely that any existing passenger station would be adaptable as an Auto Train destination due to lack of available space for automobile handling. This is particularly true of the cramped location of the Phoenix station on the former S.P. In earlier discussions of potential Auto Train service to the area, there was brief consideration of extending the run from Flagstaff to Phoenix via the Peavine, which would have probably meant a brand new terminal facility along the AT&SF, closer to the West side of town and closer to Sun City, etc., but this was quickly nixed as impractical.
What I say is based on my understanding of the space requirements at the current Auto Train terminals at Lorton and Sanford. Of course, a smaller operation might require less space. But a smaller operation is likely to be less cost effective due to the economics of scale. This leads to the obvious question: It may be true that there is some potential market, but how big is that market?
CMStPnPProperty taxes on the Midwest property approx $1500 more a year and you pay income taxes as well. Hence you can see why folks only pick a few states to retire too. It makes really good financial sense.
No state income tax in FL or TX. This is also a factor for permanent relocation.
An auto train service between Las Vegas and Los Angeles would be such a short haul that it would lose to autos because of the time lost on loading and unloading vehicles. Driving on I-15 would be faster.
Actually, an auto train service might be just the thing for Las Vegas-Los Angeles servcie. As I recall, the last incarnaton of HSR between the two cities was symied by a lack of entry to LA, which Auto Train does not need.
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