Would Amtrak ever consider adding an Auto Train service to Vegas? Ideally from Chicago or Denver.
Who in their right mind would want to ship their car to Vegas to drive it up and down the Strip and park it expen$ively at a hotel so as not to have to use plebeian limos or complimentary courtesy shuttles? Must be that family-friendly aspect I have never quite recognized in the casino-gaming world.
Now, if you had something like a California Zephyr Auto-Train going from some point reasonably convenient to large chunks of the SF and LA regions that went through Vegas, you might have something that some people might come to use. But absent cruise-train amenities or Ed Ellis grade comp service for recognized high rollers, I don't really see even a regular 'casino train' from Chicago or Denver being much of a draw over the alternatives, let alone one with the overhead involved in handling vehicles.
There is also the question of opportunity cost. Full Auto-Train consists, in enough number to run a reasonable number of days of the week, could be used more successfully in many other prospective service corridors than ones going to Vegas as a terminal attraction.
Cost for a New Auto Train just on Equipment and Facilities alone (6 trainsets) is probably going to run you at least $500 million, then you have the operating subsidy. It's probably the same reason they never restarted Louisville, KY to Sandford, Florida Auto-Train service.
Once upon a time around the early 1990's, the Amtrak's Marketing Dept explored the possibility of putting auto carriers on the SW Chief between Chicago (or nearby) and Flagstaff, AZ. The idea was that motorists could fan out from Flagstaff to the Grand Canyon, Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas, or California destinations.
The whole idea came to nothing due to the impossibility of coming up with a practical schedule, lack of equipment, the need to build expensive new infrastructure for an experimental program, lack of available space for new facilities in Fragstaff, limited hotel accommodations in Flagstaff, and other factors.
An idea is just an idea until it collides with practical realities. If it overcomes them, it becomes a plan. It it doesn't, it's a pipe dream.
Tom
Chicago area to Las Vegas RT would take far too long for most folks wanting to go there. The average number of nights' stay in 2015 was 3.4 nights.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Currently, it would take two nights to get to Las Vegas from Chicago--and two nights to return. Add to that, the time between cutoff for loading and leaving, and the time to retrieve your car at the other end.
Johnny
Deggesty Currently, it would take two nights to get to Las Vegas from Chicago--and two nights to return. Add to that, the time between cutoff for loading and leaving, and the time to retrieve your car at the other end.
How many days do snowbirds spend driving from the upper Midwest to their winter quarters in Arizona or Southern Cal? How many people riding the present Auto train to Florida do so with the intention of staying only 3.4 nights?
ORNHOO Deggesty Currently, it would take two nights to get to Las Vegas from Chicago--and two nights to return. Add to that, the time between cutoff for loading and leaving, and the time to retrieve your car at the other end. How many days do snowbirds spend driving from the upper Midwest to their winter quarters in Arizona or Southern Cal? How many people riding the present Auto train to Florida do so with the intention of staying only 3.4 nights?
ORNHOOHow many days do snowbirds spend driving from the upper Midwest to their winter quarters in Arizona or Southern Cal? How many people riding the present Auto train to Florida do so with the intention of staying only 3.4 nights?
Your comparing apples and oranges and I can tell you why.......
1. Past posters were correct average visit to Las Vegas is only a few days. I don't know of many people that have a Winter House in Vegas. But it doesn't take much longer than 3 days to get bored of Las Vegas.
2. Arizona has specific retirement areas around Phoenix for retired people and I hate to tell you this but none of them are near a railroad. The biggest is Sun City, AZ. Look at where it is on the map of Phoenix and where Union Station is in Phoenix. Looks a fair distance by freeway but the rush hour and freeways in Phoenix are very congested so increase travel time of what you think by 1 hour minimum. Why I had the discussion earlier that the Maricopa Station location might not have been a bad idea than maintaining what? a 40 mile passenger train spur for one train a day each way? Most people that buy a second home in Phoenix intend to retire there and buy the home near a retirement area. When your older you will understand why this is but generally it has to do with access to Emergency Services and Health Care and being able to get around once Arizona yanks your Drivers License. In Sun City they can drive Golf Carts for short trips on Public roads, does not require a drivers license and very few other Phoenix Communities allow that.
3. I don't know of many people that buy a winter home in Southern California that live in the Midwest as that is a very major real estate investment. Perhaps you do but I don't so lets cross that one off.
4. Average trip length to Florida is one week because of Disney compare that to 3 Nights as previously stated for Las Vegas and you'll begin to understand why the current existing Auto Train routing makes sense. Florida also has a lot of retirement communities so the winter home concept applies as well.
5. As it stands now most people with Winter Homes in Phoenix and Florida fly by plane to their location and have an auto transporter bring one of their cars down (you see that Auto Train is really not needed at all..........it's a luxury or nice to have).
You know you can figure this stuff out yourself by looking at the size of the rental car fleet in each state and what the average car rental duration is. That should show you that most retirements that involve a second home are Florida, Texas, NM and Arizona. Guess why that is? Because if you live in the Midwest the home that costs you $450,000 new in a 24-30 mile distance from say a Milwaukee suburb, costs almost half or 1/3 as much in one of the retirement states. I bought my 2100 sq foot home 24 miles NE of Dallas for $148,000 new in 1999 at that time a comparable home in Wisconsin 24 miles from Milwaukee was well over $300,000. My home in Texas is 95% brick, concrete drive, 1/3 acre, sprinkler system, privacy fence, landscaping and sod included as well as appliances. The $300,000 home in Wisconsin, pretty stripped down and a lot of what is included in Texas you pay for in the Midwest. Property taxes on the Midwest property approx $1500 more a year and you pay income taxes as well.
Hence you can see why folks only pick a few states to retire too. It makes really good financial sense.
RME Who in their right mind would want to ship their car to Vegas to drive it up and down the Strip and park it expen$ively at a hotel so as not to have to use plebeian limos or complimentary courtesy shuttles?
Who in their right mind would want to ship their car to Vegas to drive it up and down the Strip and park it expen$ively at a hotel so as not to have to use plebeian limos or complimentary courtesy shuttles?
The majority of the hotels in Las Vegas offer free parking. The resorts that are owned by MGM just started charging for parking this past summer, but anyone with any status do not have to pay for it.
An "expensive model collector"
Actually, an auto train service might be just the thing for Las Vegas-Los Angeles servcie. As I recall, the last incarnaton of HSR between the two cities was symied by a lack of entry to LA, which Auto Train does not need.
An auto train service between Las Vegas and Los Angeles would be such a short haul that it would lose to autos because of the time lost on loading and unloading vehicles. Driving on I-15 would be faster.
CMStPnPProperty taxes on the Midwest property approx $1500 more a year and you pay income taxes as well. Hence you can see why folks only pick a few states to retire too. It makes really good financial sense.
No state income tax in FL or TX. This is also a factor for permanent relocation.
Whether we're talking about Las Vegas, Phoenix, or some other destination, it's unlikely that any existing passenger station would be adaptable as an Auto Train destination due to lack of available space for automobile handling. This is particularly true of the cramped location of the Phoenix station on the former S.P. In earlier discussions of potential Auto Train service to the area, there was brief consideration of extending the run from Flagstaff to Phoenix via the Peavine, which would have probably meant a brand new terminal facility along the AT&SF, closer to the West side of town and closer to Sun City, etc., but this was quickly nixed as impractical.
What I say is based on my understanding of the space requirements at the current Auto Train terminals at Lorton and Sanford. Of course, a smaller operation might require less space. But a smaller operation is likely to be less cost effective due to the economics of scale. This leads to the obvious question: It may be true that there is some potential market, but how big is that market?
Actually, up through the mid-1950s, the private railroads worked quite well with The Pullman Company to optimally utilize dedicated consists between seasonal trains. What comes to mind is how the same consist was used during the winter as the Seaboard's "Orange Blossom Special" between NYC-Miami; during the summer, as the PRR/NYNH&H/B&M/MC "Bar Harbor Express" between Washington-NYC-Maine.
Rather than discounting the "Auto Train" during the off summer Florida season, Amtrak should have produced a proforma to evidence the revenue generating capacity of utilizing the consists for summer seasonal service between Chicago-Denver, or better, Colorado Springs. Either city in Colorado is the gateway to the many popular western national parks that used to be so well served by summer trains, such as to Yellowstone.
What should have also been learned is how the former American Orient Express understood the market; how travelers did not want to waste the time running overnight just to get into position to vacation. That is why my trips on the AOE in 2004 started in Santa Fe and Salt Lake City. However, the market would have embraced families traveling with their autos to maximize their vacationing in the national parks.
SuperChief49 Rather than discounting the "Auto Train" during the off summer Florida season, Amtrak should have produced a proforma to evidence the revenue generating capacity of utilizing the consists for summer seasonal service between Chicago-Denver, or better, Colorado Springs. Either city in Colorado is the gateway to the many popular western national parks that used to be so well served by summer trains, such as to Yellowstone. What should have also been learned is how the former American Orient Express understood the market; how travelers did not want to waste the time running overnight just to get into position to vacation. That is why my trips on the AOE in 2004 started in Santa Fe and Salt Lake City. However, the market would have embraced families traveling with their autos to maximize their vacationing in the national parks.
Your not going to be able to flip the Auto Train to whatever route you choose in the Summer. It's not a normal Amtrak train, it has no intermediate stops and it is considerably longer in length as well as starting and stopping it takes more time. Hence the tenant frieght railroad would balk about the different characteristics of train handling. Liability Insurance requirements for an Auto Train are likely greater as well than a normal Amtrak train due to the significant property in the back being carried (private autos).
SuperChief49:
If AOE had such a great understanding of the market, why aren't they running today?
ACY SuperChief49: If AOE had such a great understanding of the market, why aren't they running today? Tom
Exactly. What lesson is there to be learned from them on rail cruises? It seems they failed. In any case, AOE was tapping an entirely different market than Amtrak's mission.
Nothing speaks market knowlege like bankruptcy.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wouldn't mind taking the current Auto Train and having a second stop somewhere north (New Jersey, somewhere halfway between New York and Philly) so passengers from those areas don't have to drive down to Virginia to get on it. The problem is you'd have to replace the Superliners with Viewliners to fit through Baltimore's tunnel.
Philly Amtrak FanI wouldn't mind taking the current Auto Train and having a second stop somewhere north (New Jersey, somewhere halfway between New York and Philly) so passengers from those areas don't have to drive down to Virginia to get on it. The problem is you'd have to replace the Superliners with Viewliners to fit through Baltimore's tunnel.
Auto racks wouldn't fit either. The Lorton location gives those from further North a relatively easy one day drive to Lorton and thus a feeling of 'accomplishment' in driving to their vacation. Likewise Sanford being in Central Florida also gives them the sense of accomplishment in a easy drive to their ultimate destination.
I hope this thread isn't going to devolve into the old "Why doesn't the Auto Train go farther North (or South)?" discussion. That poor old horse has been beaten to death too many times already.
The Auto Train had a $2.7 million operating profit in 2015. And an average load factor of 73 per cent. Even after adding a reasonable albeit unknown amount for depreciation, interest, etc., the Auto Train probably covered all of its expenses in 2015.
The Auto Train is the only long distance train to have had an operating profit. It may even have broken even on a fully allocated cost basis.
Don't mess with success, especially for a company that has not had many if any commercial winners when the total cost picture is considered.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
zkr123Would Amtrak ever consider adding an Auto Train service to Vegas? Ideally from Chicago or Denver.
I am beginning to wonder something just a bit different. What if Amtrak offered a service that would coordinate or run a dedicated train of auto carriers separate from an "Auto Train" passenger consist, on a schedule either constituting a 'second section' of the passenger train or providing some guaranteed arrival time either before or reasonably after the passenger time? (No real reason why that service couldn't run with freight power and ordinary senior railroad crews, is there?)
You have just described a freight train, which is not part of Amtrak's mission. Whether somebody else might do it is a different question.
ACYYou have just described a freight train, which is not part of Amtrak's mission.
Yeesh, think about it a moment, it's freight equipment as an explicit adjunct to passenger service. And I'm not saying Amtrak has to run it themselves, just coordinate it. This doesn't have to be 'MHCs for automobiles' (although I thought then, and still do, that there's a valid role for MHCs on Amtrak trains, quite distinct from what could be done in Viewliner baggage cars...)
Amtrak's "mission" is not just to move pax between stations. That's part of the attitude that has caused trouble with dining service, 'attendant' morale, and a number of other issues. If customers want to 'take their cars along' when they travel Amtrak, why wouldn't Amtrak want to coordinate something that lets them do that?
I'm not rerally arguing with the basic concept. I just think it would be a bit of a hard sell to convince the freight railroads that they need to cooperate with this, and to operate the auto-carrying freight train in such a disciplined way that the owners of the automobiles can count on their cars being there when they want them. Furthermore, the current Auto Train carries as many as 600 passengers and 300 autos in one consist (round numbers). I don't think it's likely that you'll find any market that comes anywhere near these numbers, much less exceed them, in the foreseeable future, so I fail to see the need for separating the auto carrying portion from the passenger carrying portion. It would just complicate the operation and make for greater problems in the event that something happens to delay the passengers or the autos.
Actually, the market they need to get back into, and it would still require equipment investment(and possibly route upgrading) is from the Midwest to Sanford, FL. Louisville, KY was not the optimal starting point, but somewhere in Indiana would be much more practical, say half way between Chicago, IL and Indianapolis, IN, plenty of land available...and it's close enough to Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio that those people could drive in one day and still catch the train...but would they is the question, hence why you perform marketing surveys.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR Actually, the market they need to get back into, and it would still require equipment investment(and possibly route upgrading) is from the Midwest to Sanford, FL. Louisville, KY was not the optimal starting point, but somewhere in Indiana would be much more practical, say half way between Chicago, IL and Indianapolis, IN, plenty of land available...and it's close enough to Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa and Ohio that those people could drive in one day and still catch the train...but would they is the question, hence why you perform marketing surveys.
The route would need major improvements along with permission from CSX/NS. Good luck with that!
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