Thanks. Too bad the audio quality isn't better. Good for some of the closest questioners, very poor for one woman, mediocre for Ed. Much better would have been a direct feed from the sound system, rather than an in-audience pickup, probably via cell-phone tablet.
He comes across as rather sarcastic at times and I think it has to do with frustrations of dealing with the government which as a former small business person I could understand completely. Lets see Building Occupation Inspection, Fire Safety Inspection, Department of Health Inspection, Oy the insanity on why they cannot be combined into one.
Here's a wild idea. Have Amtrak continue running the legacy LD trains (OK, kill the Cardinal), coaches + buffet only, but let Ed Ellis' company provide and manage the first class sleeper and dining car service on the back cars.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Why would Ed Ellis want to take over money losing dining cars and sleepers? Regularly scheduled passenger operations are a Little different then his Pullman co and not like his Hoosier train which he isn't operating for a profit. He paid to run the train. The state of Indiana picks up the losses.
How would the existing labor contracts be delt with. Are Ed excursion trains a union shop? Just wondering. Who would handle maintenance long term and on a daily basis. Where would Ed get the capital to purchase a large number of expensive passenger cars?
A neat idea but their a underlying reasons why the original Pullman company and privately operated railroads passenger trains were discontinued. They were labor intensive, required huge amounts of capital and lost money regardless how the accounting was done.
ROBERT WILLISON Why would Ed Ellis want to take over money losing dining cars and sleepers? Regularly scheduled passenger operations are a Little different then his Pullman co and not like his Hoosier train which he isn't operating for a profit. He paid to run the train. The state of Indiana picks up the losses. How would the existing labor contracts be delt with. Are Ed excursion trains a union shop? Just wondering. Who would handle maintenance long term and on a daily basis. Where would Ed get the capital to purchase a large number of expensive passenger cars? A neat idea but their a underlying reasons why the original Pullman company and privately operated railroads passenger trains were discontinued. They were labor intensive, required huge amounts of capital and lost money regardless how the accounting was done.
Run the 3-4 Pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices.
The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible.
You suggesting running like Budd equipment, not Amtrak super and view liners
ROBERT WILLISON You suggesting running like Budd equipment, not Amtrak super and view liners
No. Where did I say that? I am suggesting using whatever is available.
Your right, you never said it. So your suggesting a new operator buy or lease existing equipment. Pay prevailing labor rates. Pay Amtrak maintenance, inspection costs and any related charges. Station costs and a haulage fee?
ROBERT WILLISON Your right, you never said it. So your suggesting a new operator buy or lease existing equipment. Pay prevailing labor rates. Pay Amtrak maintenance, inspection costs and any related charges. Station costs and a haulage fee?
Never said any of the above. It is very difficult to discuss ideas with someone who fabricates another's statements. I suggest you re-read my posts on this and offer your own ideas.
Hard to have s discussion without discussing.
ROBERT WILLISON Hard to have s discussion without discussing.
"Run the 3-4 sleeper/pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices.
The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible."
The cars would be whatever is available - Superliners and Viewliners. Ellis would be paid a small fee to operate plus he would be responsible for setting fares and paying his staff and would keep any profits.
I hope ED Ellis gets this suggestion: He should tack a sleeper or a sleeper with a buffet lounge with meal possibilities, on the back of the overnight Boston - Newport News train. This train does not have sleeper service at present, althougj it does have Business Class. There should be a market for overnight Boston and Providence - Baltimore and Washington and Richmond business travel. There should be a market for Boston and Providence - Williamsburg tourist travel. Travel to the Norfolk area would be supplentary, and 1st Class Washington - Williamsburg and Newport News would be an addition, with daytime service. I thihnk the market is there and the present train without really 1st Class service does not serve it.
Ed Ellis is paying Amtrak to provide the operating crew (Engineer and Conductor) similar to Via Rail. He provides the onboard passenger personel (which I suspect are not union). If you listened to his talk, you heard him say that the Amtrak provided crew people are friendly and good ambasadors for the train. I don't know whether there was any selection on his part but he's very satisfied with them. Amtrak has problems motivating some of their on board crew and keeping them from taking their discontent out on the passengers. It can be a thankless job. Long hours and too much nit picking sometimes can be stressful. Most Amtrak trips I have taken have had good crews but I have run into some bad situations. There was a crew chief on the now discontinued Chicago to Portland via Denver (connecting to the CZ) train that had a feud with a car attendent and it got nasty. I gave the car attendent my name if she needed a witness for what transpired. Makes the think of some politically incorrect statements which I will suppress here. Crew chief had the power and she was throwing her weight around. Bad vibes for the passengers.
The overnight Boston - Newport News sleeper can be test for the Ed Ellis - Amtrak relationship. If it works out well for both, then one by one, he can take over 1st-class sleeper service on long distance trains that already have sleeper service.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON Hard to have s discussion without discussing. "Run the 3-4 sleeper/pullman cars tacked on the end of LD trains for a small fee paid to Ellis to operate the same way he does the Hoosier State (non-union, I think). He could charge what he wants for tickets and meals. Acquisition and maybe maintenance would remain with Amtrak. I think it would be less of a loss for Amtrak and the nostalgia buffs could have their paradise, but at market prices. The details could be worked out. The purpose is to opt Amtrak out of the hugely expensive, subsidized pullman business on LD trains but to keep them running as transportation with far less expense. Those who want deluxe sleepers can pay. Handicapped folks can get reduced fare, if eligible." The cars would be whatever is available - Superliners and Viewliners. Ellis would be paid a small fee to operate plus he would be responsible for setting fares and paying his staff and would keep any profits.
Illinois Railway Museum has a LOT of surplus sleepers lined up in their restoration line........I don't think there is a shortage of the old Budd and Pullman Sleepers in this country. Even appear on Ozark Mountain Rail equipment sales quite a bit.........there are a few sleepers there for sale now. You can even modify a sleeper and add kitchen or lounge space to it.
Note Ed has the sleepers just sittting around since the end of C-NO service. At Boston maintenance service is available from either Amtrak or the MBTA. Emergencies at Washington, should they ever occur, gives the choice of Amtrak, MARC, or Virginia Express. Still, if one car is scheduled each way, two protection cars probably should be provided, one in Boston and one in Washington.
Electroliner 1935If you listened to his talk, you heard him say that the Amtrak provided crew people are friendly and good ambasadors for the train. I don't know whether there was any selection on his part but he's very satisfied with them.
I think the train being up for bid by State of Indiana and Amtrak's rather shaky status has a lot to do with Amtrak employee motivation to keep passengers happy and attract more. They know if the train goes away, it's either they get sent to another one that travels longer than a few hours or potentially the unemployment line.
If the Pullman Rail Journeys Chicago-New Orleans operation did not draw enough passengers, what would make a Newport News-Boston line any better?
CSSHEGEWISCH If the Pullman Rail Journeys Chicago-New Orleans operation did not draw enough passengers, what would make a Newport News-Boston line any better?
It might not work, true. However, there are differences with the CNO failed experiment.
1. The Boston Newport News train seems like a sure loser for sleepers.
2. AFAIK, the CNO trial had Ellis' sleepers tacked behind regular Amtrak sleepers, so in competition. I am suggesting Ellis operate the only sleepers on an LD train, preferably in the West, under contract with Amtrak. Perhaps less luxurious than in the CNO trial?
Minor problem. If Ellis ran his own sleepers behind a Superliner consist, he would also have to provide his own dining car and lounge equipment, adding to his expense with not much more income.
Instead of BOS - Newport news sleeper run the sleeper BOS - WASH then attach it onto the end of of the Meteor to MIA. Unfortunately northbound poses many problems.
Now if Palmetto is ever extended to MIA but fat chance.
1. The Boston - Washington market exists. Does not currently have a sleeper. It can be a business market, including Providence - Baltimore, because the times are reasonable and do not interfere with the business day. Acela is competition but takes time from the business day, especially the going part, less the evening return, the comjpetition is also first class air plus expensive hotel.
2. The train runs through to Newport News Colonial Williamsburg is a marketable tourist attraction and educational experience, extremely worthwhile and a relatively unknown in the Boston market, a market that vaules histiory more than most other USA communities. So weekend non-business travel is a possibility. A clever travel agency can do a job on marketing this service, Raymond and Wittcome come to mind. Day travel between Baltimore and Washington and Williamsburg and Newport News can fill some of the seating available when sleeping accomodations vacated at Baltimore and Washington are converted for daytime use.
3. Going to Miami takes extra equipment and competes with existing Amtrak sleepers. Also switching charges at Washington. The Silver Meteor is still a very decent train with good dining and loujge accomodatons and would give competition. Would not draw additional overnight business travel.
The real market are those prefer rail but find Acela cuts into the business day. In addition to the round-trip business, both ways, there are thsoe that would go via Ellis-Pullman and return via Acela. Most of these would fly if Acela were the only premium service.
1957-1967 I worked in the Bolt Beranek and Newman Cambridge, MA office. Every other professional consultant flew to distant jobs, in general, while I tried to use train service whenever possible and practical, often flying to a jobsite and returning by rail and countine the rail time as office time because I could do the needed calculations and design and write the report without interfering phonecalls and requests for help by my fellow consultants.
But Washinton and Baltimore were exeotions for most of my fellow consultants. Service on the overnight Federal was decent enough for them to enjoy an evening at home with family before boarding at South Station at 10pm or Back Bay five minutes later, with parking available, or at Route 128. Some would fly back home, others had friends and/or relatives to visit in Washington before boarding the Federal. None traveled coach, all that is avilable today, and would fly if the sleeperes were sold out.
If anything, flyers are worse off today. Then the Eastern Shuttle was a walk-on operation, and for a whle Northeast also offered this kind of service. No airport security checks.
Back in the late 80's or early 90's, I was taking one of my All Aboard America mileage trips where I went from Chicago to Baltimore on the Cardinal, then I was to take the overnight sleeper to NYC ( Amtrak ran two cars, one to BOS & one to NYC which was parked until 7:30 AM and a similar operation Southbound) Then I was going to take the train (Maple Leaf) to Toronto and Via Rail to Halifax and continue. Had all my tickets and went to the Baltimore station and the train arrived about 11:40 and only had one (BOS) sleeper. Conductor claimed I should have been notified. He allowed me and I chose to ride through to New Haven and return back to NYC on an early Metroliner (which I had to pay for) that got to NYC in time make the connection to Toronto. I did not desire to stay in Penn Sta from 2 AM until 7:30 AM. Rest of trip went as planned. Did get a voucher for the unused sleeper cost. Never did get any expanation why the sleeper had been annulled and I hadn't been notified.
Electroliner 1935 Back in the late 80's or early 90's, I was taking one of my All Aboard America mileage trips where I went from Chicago to Baltimore on the Cardinal, then I was to take the overnight sleeper to NYC ( Amtrak ran two cars, one to BOS & one to NYC which was parked until 7:30 AM and a similar operation Southbound) Then I was going to take the train (Maple Leaf) to Toronto and Via Rail to Halifax and continue. Had all my tickets and went to the Baltimore station and the train arrived about 11:40 and only had one (BOS) sleeper. Conductor claimed I should have been notified. He allowed me and I chose to ride through to New Haven and return back to NYC on an early Metroliner (which I had to pay for) that got to NYC in time make the connection to Toronto. I did not desire to stay in Penn Sta from 2 AM until 7:30 AM. Rest of trip went as planned. Did get a voucher for the unused sleeper cost. Never did get any expanation why the sleeper had been annulled and I hadn't been notified.
Johnny
CSSHEGEWISCH Minor problem. If Ellis ran his own sleepers behind a Superliner consist, he would also have to provide his own dining car and lounge equipment, adding to his expense with not much more income.
One last time. The Ellis group (or some other three-year contracted operator) would operate the sleepers and one dining car using Amtrak equipment tacked on the end of the Amtrak-operated, coaches + bistro car (fast food) front part of LD trains. Ellis would get a declining fee to operate. He would use his staff and pay them. He would set his standards and sleeper surcharges (tickets) along with food menus and prices. He would keep the profits, if any. After three years, re-evaluate. If people won't pay what it really costs, then d/c the sleeper services on a route by route basis.
My guess is few people on here who demand 1950s nostalgia LD trains are willing to pay 2017 prices. Heavily government-subsidized deluxe train services free marketers and Libertarians here should oppose on principle.
schlimmOne last time.
You should be used to repeating yourself by now. Just like practicing the phrase "President Trump" in front of the mirror each night.....heh-heh.
CMStPnPYou should be used to repeating yourself by now. Just like practicing the phrase "President Trump" in front of the mirror each night.....heh-heh.Big Smile
Perfect for those trying to lose weight through vomiting.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Basically, I agree with the above. But I think the Boston - Newport News train would be an excellent first test of the concept. And since Amtrak cannot spare a sleeper to start the service, Ed should provide three of his own.
Just a crazy thought,
Why not run a diner on the Silver Star(the train that had the diner discontinued by congress)?
Probably wouldn't work.
Would be a gpod experiment
I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money.
MidlandMike I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money.
Only until someone realize that you can charge market prices for decent food, just like in a regular food establishment...once people(aka passengers) realize there's decent food on the train at normal prices they'll stop bringing their own on board and more will purchase the on board food. As far as sleeper accomodations go, the current pricing isn't has highly subsidized as some would like to believe...you're additional cost is what vs a coach; both have attendants(or should, in the coaches case...yes, it should be one attendant per coach). Personally, and from what I've heard they don't make as much as we like to think they make, though it's not poverty level either, it's not living like a king wage either(that's just salary, the benefits are the killer, and RR retirement).
Everythin I read says you can't brake even charging normal prices in a rail diner. The have more expences than stationary restaurants. There is the expense and maintainence of the railcar, commissary, crew travel expense, etc.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR MidlandMike I get the impression that diners are a loss leader, and that you would also need the sleeper fares to make money. Only until someone realize that you can charge market prices for decent food, just like in a regular food establishment...once people(aka passengers) realize there's decent food on the train at normal prices they'll stop bringing their own on board and more will purchase the on board food. As far as sleeper accomodations go, the current pricing isn't has highly subsidized as some would like to believe...you're additional cost is what vs a coach; both have attendants(or should, in the coaches case...yes, it should be one attendant per coach). Personally, and from what I've heard they don't make as much as we like to think they make, though it's not poverty level either, it's not living like a king wage either(that's just salary, the benefits are the killer, and RR retirement).
Dining cars are not even true loss leaders, since all LD trains lose money, with the exception of the Auto-Train. With loss leaders, the loss is tolerated to attract customers in an overall profitable venture or for a limited period of time in a new or revamped venture. LD train have lost a lot of money throughout its 46 year history. Dining cars lost money prior to Amtrak as well.
To make it pay: Charge the real costs plus a profit, with reservations in advance for a complete meal service for the entire trip. Possibly $200.00. But make it worth it. Food and service and decore entirely comoperable to the Torquise Room on the Super Chief.
Cut losses by the menue given at the time of the reservation, and the food furnished and prepared exactly as the customer desires.
No refunds for no-shows. If there are no-shows, then the specific meals can be sold for reduced cost on the train for those without reservations.
Would begin with one car each way per week, timed for the heaviest days of travel.
What can be prepared in advance and kept heated or cooled on board without loosing quality would be so prepared. But some on-board cooking and preparation would be essential for the quality approach.
daveklepperTo make it pay: Charge the real costs plus a profit, with reservations in advance for a complete meal service for the entire trip. Possibly $200.00. But make it worth it. Food and service and decore entirely comoperable to the Torquise Room on the Super Chief.
On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
^^^ Yes, completely missing from Amtrak. You can significantly reduce the dining car losses and food waste if you manage the asset intelligently with a General Manager at the Commissary that knows how a train should be stocked from experience being an on board Chef. I agree with most of what Dave says though I would tweak a few areas. Intelligent management of the menu is the difference between a huge loss and a much smaller loss.
For example, having the same hamburger for sale on the Dining Car menu for $10 more than you charge in the snack or Cafe car is just pure stupidity. Lets look at Ham, baked Ham on Thursday night. Leftover Ham is ground up to make ham salad sandwiches the next day and/or placed in split pea with ham soup. You can also strip or cube the ham and place it in a chef's salad along with turkey. The concept is to reuse the leftovers in follow-on reciepes as Ham does not spoil overnight and lasts a few days after being cooked. So does turkey. Reusing in such a mannger reduces waste and utilizes storage space better on board.
For Soda.........why the hell Amtrak is carrying cans of soda everywhere instead of syrup is beyond me. The canned soda is heavier and requires more handling and is not as easy to store as the syrup is. Amtrak is also paying for the much increased price of packaging of the soda (Aluminum Can) greatly reducing the profit on the sale of a soft drink. All around idiotic. Price it out folks a box of syrup costs $15-20, creating at least 750-850 drinks. How many cans of Soda does that amount too?, then you have to lug the Aluminum Cans off the train and dispose of them. If you are cycling the dining car from train to train you can leave the boxes of syrup on the train and connected to the dispenser.
Definety start selling alcholic beverages and have a bar tender on board whose sales will more than pay for his position. Another case study in stupidity, Amtrak dumped the bar steward position and went with mini mix it yourself bottles of hard liquor. Again significantly reducing liquor margins as well as significantly reducing the ordering of mixed drinks (a lot of folks do not know how to mix their own). Would definitely take the rolling hotel approach with liquor and buy the full size bottles, and place someone besides the bartender in charge of inventory and resupply.
Buy raw potatoes and bake them on board or use a French Fry slicer to make Fries and then freeze the leftover raw fries for the next meal if not used in the current service. Nobody can tell the difference between a fresh fry and frozen fry that has been deep fried unless you keep the frozen fry in the freezer for a long time. French Fries, yes it is quicker to deep fry them but you can also bake them if there is no room for a deep fryer and in fact I would not put a deep fryer in a rolling dining car because of the hot oil danger and the need to always change the oil (which is a pain), bake the french fries and bake the fried chicken. If you do it the right way, comes out similar enough to fried.
Ask ACY. Lots of problems in your plan.
schlimmOn the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
$3000 for a Bedroom, $1500 for a roomette. Raise the coach seat to $350 each way.
schlimmAsk ACY. Lots of problems in your plan. Add
I am sure there are from an Amtrak perspective but I thought we were talking about replacing Amtrak with a privately run diner.
CMStPnPFor Soda.........why the hell Amtrak is carrying cans of soda everywhere instead of syrup is beyond me. The canned soda is heavier and requires more handling and is not as easy to store as the syrup is.
Yes, but even McDonalds has had issues with sanitation of the dispenser heads, they need to be cleaned per strict rules. Also, you need CO2 tanks and carbonators to supply the water. I doubt that Ed Ellis uses syrup on his cars.
I have read only a few of the most recent posts in this thread, and have not seen the video. It's almost an hour long, and I was assuming it wouldn't be of much interest to me. The idea that a new non Amtrak startup would be a COST-EFFECTIVE success doesn't seem likely, and the argument is tiresome to me. It's not tiresome to CMStPnP. I've been avoiding this conversation because we've plowed this ground before. In the past, not much that I've said has ever had a whole lot of impact on CMStPnP's thinking, so I'm not so confident that it will be any different this time 'round. But my name was brought up, and I guess there is some sentiment saying I ought to chime in. So I'll catch up some time soon and see the video.
For those who don't know, I retired from Amtrak onboard service a little over two years ago with a little over 26 years of service, in sleeping car and coach service, as well as food service (which is always implied, no matter what onboard service job you're doing). I understand CMStPnP has experience in some sort of stationary food service outlet.
I've read his comments about the need for soda machines instead of cans. Of all the serious problems Amtrak faces with regard to food service, it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that this will help; and it is utterly ridiculous to suggest that a new non Amtrak startup would benefit any more. A soda machine requires maintenance and cleaning. It represents a significant investment and is subject to enroute mechanical failures, which might not be repairable until servicing at the next terminal. It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain, so it can't be installed just anywhere in a railroad car. It requires frequent cleaning to FDA standards, which isn't always easy to accomplish enroute. On the other hand, canned soda requires nothing but refrigeration, which the cars already have anyway. In fact, canned sodas can be provided without refrigeration if the refrigerators fail enroute (not unheard of), although the customer would probably want ice.
If you want french fries on a moving train, then YOU can be the guy who has to work next to a deep well of scalding hot oil on a moving train. I'm not going to do it, and I don't know any modern Amtrak chef who is that stupid. Yes, deep frying was done in the past. No, it was never a good idea. They used to use Presto Logs, too.
Less than three years ago, chefs on my train were baking raw potatoes to accompany made to order steaks, just as you suggest. They plated them and sent them to me to serve to passengers. Our chefs are talented, skilled, and proud of their work, and it was a rare occasion when the passenger sent such a meal back because he was unhappy with it. When it did happen, it was usually because of a misunderstanding of the difference between medium rare and rare, or some such issue. It can be done, so you're not saying snything new about that. The bean counters said it cost too much, so the steaks and baked potatoes are gone from my train. You can have your baked potatoes if you want to spend the money. I don't see why you think you're saying anything special or new.
I get awfully tired of CMStPnP's ideas that his experience in stationary food service can translate into the onboard, enroute realities of food service on a moving train in interstate service, subject to the regulation of FDA. These factors will be there whether the operator is Amtrak or somebody else, so don't give me those tired old arguments about how hopelessly terrible Amtrak is. That's never been true, and solutions just aren't that simple.
Tom
(First paragraph edited for emphasis; conclusion also amplified)
CMStPnP schlimm On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138. $3000 for a Bedroom, $1500 for a roomette. Raise the coach seat to $350 each way.
schlimm On the Southwest Chief, that would be 2 dinners, 1 lunch and 2 breakfasts + two nights room accomodation all with deluxe service and decor for $200? A Superliner roomette is $523 while a bedroom charges $1314, while the coach seat is $138.
And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
Passenger trains shouldn't have to make money today. They rarely did back in the day, before cars, buses and planes.
Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either. We indulge and spend lots and lots of taxpayer dollars on them because people want and use them.
Should be no problem with passenger trains -- suburban, corridor and LD -- as long as they are well patronized. What if we applied profit as the survival test of METRA, the Sounders, the Corridor?
ACY. It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain
It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more.
Further, I always get luke warm soda can on Amtrak with a cup of Ice. Sometimes the snack bar refrigerates but not a lot a large reserve so back to Luke Warm when they run out of the refrigerated stuff. Maybe it is the Texas Eagle route vs. Auto-Train.
schlimmAnd you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
How the hell would I know? I am just throwing it out there because you were complaining the price was too low and DaveKeeper was adding services and car refurbishment at a highly unfunded rate.
ACYI get awfully tired of CMStPnP's ideas that his experience in stationary food service can translate into the onboard, enroute realities of food service on a moving train in interstate service, subject to the regulation of FDA. These factors will be there whether the operator is Amtrak or somebody else, so don't give me those tired old arguments about how hopelessly terrible Amtrak is. That's never been true, and solutions just aren't that simple.
See and now your upset again and why? Because you listened to Schlimm and he wanted you to comment.......so blame him.
The thread is on Privately run passenger trains and we delved into the hypothetical privately run operation. Sorry but Mr. Ellis a former Amtrak VP disagrees with you on several points regarding onboard services if you watched his video. And now he is competing with your former employer for corridor services, so that should give you pause. That does not necessarily make him wrong but of a different opinion.
Likewise I am pretty confident we will see Brightline clean the floor with Amtrak's onboard food service theories when it rolls out it's Bistro Car to the public. Definitely a diifference between private and public sector thinking. It's the difference between the thinking of "we have to make a profit" and "we will never make a profit so why bother". We'll see but I fully expect Amtrak is going to be surprised in more than one area with Brightline when it comes to corridor services.
dakotafredThose cars, buses and planes don't make money, either.
In the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense:
schlimmIn the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense: American Airlines. Second quarter 2016 pre-tax profit of $1.5 billion, or $1.6 billion excluding special charges, and net profit of$950 million, or $1.0 billion excluding special charges Excluding special items, UAL reported second-quarter net income of $863 million, and pre-tax earnings of $1.4 billion. Delta Air Lines Announces June Quarter Profit ï‚· June 2016 quarter GAAP pre-tax income of $2.4 billion, adjusted pre-tax income1 of $1.7 billion
Your both actually right. I would point out that Airline profitability is a function of the price of oil all other things on the side. Further the profits your pointing to do not include the absolute full costs of delivering the service. Airlines are subsidized in part by the DoD (troop fleet), Congress (flights to underserved airports), as well as Airport bonding and never having to pay taxes on terminals, there is more. Just add up the direct airline subsidies and you exceed annually the subsidy to Amtrak.
Remember that if you argue that airlines pay the full cost of their terminals, a claim I find really a stretch. They still get a huge subsidy on bonding for airport construction in that the much, much lower interest rate and higher credit of the local taxing authority is used instead of the much higher and much lower credit of the airline to build the terminal.
CMStPnP schlimm And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that? How the hell would I know? I am just throwing it out there because you were complaining the price was too low and DaveKeeper was adding services and car refurbishment at a highly unfunded rate.
schlimm And you think there is anything beyond a small, niche market for trains charging that?
The problem with some posters here is they want a cordon bleu dining experience on Amtrak at sandwich shop prices. I mentioned ACY because he knows what he is talking about from first-hand experience. I do not nor do you (about onboard food service).
Amtrak undercharges (below the operating cost) for both sleepers and food service on its LD trains except for ACY's Auto Train. As to Ellis, his little Pullman experiment tacked onto the City of New Orleans was a failure, so his expertise seems of dubious value.
schlimmThe problem with some posters here is they want a cordon bleu dining experince on Amtrak at sandwich shop prices. I mentioned ACY because he knows what he is talking about from first-hand experience. I do not nor do you (about onboard food service). Amtrak undercharges (below the operating cost) for both sleepers and food service on its LD trains except for ACY's Auto Train. As to Ellis, his little Pullman experiment tacked onto the City of New Orleans was a failure, so his expertise seems of dubious value.
All that might be correct BUT if ACY was 100% correct, his former employer would not be facing increasing competition on corridor services.......would it? I mean if everyone was following the Amtrak model on corridor services what would be the point of these new companies being formed?
As to long distance trains, nobody has Amtraks power or authority yet to run them, once that playing field is level. We'll see if there are no entrants to the field to compete with Amtrak. The Pullman experiment was interesting and given the former American Orient Express I kind of had a hunch it might fail.
However, Ellis was stuck on the Amtrak Schedule and stops #1 because he choose the tack on approach. #2 Ellis really did not capitally invest in those cars a whole lot beyond the paint scheme. He basically bought private cars from AAPRCO stock and marginally invested in them. #3 Although he charged more for his service, he did not have add-ons that we see with Rocky Mountaineer such as extended city stays, hotel deals, carry the luggage from the train to hotel service. So his onboard services were basically Amtrak levels, his schedule was basically Amtrak, to which he was adding a premium to ride in a private car.
CMStPnPAirlines are subsidized in part by the DoD (troop fleet), Congress (flights to underserved airports)
And how much is all that? $50-100 million? Airlines also pay some federal income taxes and local property taxes (not airports), unlike Amtrak which pays zero.
How much are the airlines paying for the Air Traffic Control System?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CMStPnP:
Now you're accusing me of being upset with you. I'm not particularly, because I'm confident that there's not much to your arguments. You have completely ignored my reasons for believing cans are more sensible on a train than cumbersome, labor intensive, maintenance-needing machines that must be refilled, cleaned, serviced, and provided with electric power and floor drains. You also admit it requires a pressurized tank. Just one more potential problem in the event of a derailment, if you ask me. You and I aren't likely to find common ground because you have consistently refused to address the practical issues in the past, and you're doing it again.
I've been told by others, through implication if not directly, that I wouldn't have spent a career in passenger service if I had the intelligence and ability to do something else. Maybe you don't believe me because that's what you think. Well, I can't be responsible for your unwillingness to accept the shocking notion that I might have a brain. You're determined not to believe I have anything valuable to contribute, so how about you just stop reading posts when you see they're from me?
You say I'm upset with you. On the contrary, I think you're upset with me and the notion that I might actually have a clue about the realities of working on the train, where I believe you have admitted you never did.
ACYYou have completely ignored my reasons for believing cans are more sensible on a train than cumbersome, labor intensive, maintenance-needing machines that must be refilled, cleaned, serviced, and provided with electric power and floor drains
Electric Power is not needed either unless you have a huge display sign. The pressure from the carbon dixiode sucks the syrup out. Water pressure from a regular water line is enough to move the water. It's still just the syrup and the Carbon Dixode...heh.
The water drain is already in place in the upper level of the Superliner Lounge and I am pretty sure there is a carbonated beverage dispenser in place as well but I will double check on my Christmas trip home with the crews help if they have time.
BaltACD How much are the airlines paying for the Air Traffic Control System?
Our GOP friends want to privatize it. Happy?
schlimmAnd how much is all that? $50-100 million? Airlines also pay some federal income taxes and local property taxes (not airports), unlike Amtrak which pays zero.
I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking it up but I have figures for 2005, it is a payment in kind program. Government guarantees business in revenue in exchange for members having their fleet available on 24-48 hours notice.
In 2005 the guaranteed portion was $418 million across the Airline Industry but they actually paid out $1.5 Billion above that amount. So total in 2005 was $1.9 Billion approx just for the Military Civil Airline Fleet Allocation. Interesting Amtrak has no such arrangement with DoD or FEMA even though FEMA has used Amtrak for evacuations.
Essential Air Service Subsidy for 2014 = $241 million however it was on a upward trend year over year so for 2016 it is probably higher.
Property taxes for railroads are exceedingly complex. Though my argument would be that as a tenant Amtrak should be paying a portion of the Property Taxes of the Host Railroad........look at the complex tax analysis that BNSF did for New Mexico on the Raton Pass line........Hoooollllllyyyyyy Crap!!! Who thought up the NM taxation approach??? (lol). Unbelieveable.
https://www.codot.gov/about/southwest-chief-commission/nmdot-bnsf-property-tax-analysis
schlimm dakotafred Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either. In the case of airlines, you are spouting utter nonsense: American Airlines. Second quarter 2016 pre-tax profit of $1.5 billion, or $1.6 billion excluding special charges, and net profit of$950 million, or $1.0 billion excluding special charges Excluding special items, UAL reported second-quarter net income of $863 million, and pre-tax earnings of $1.4 billion. Delta Air Lines Announces June Quarter Profit ï‚· June 2016 quarter GAAP pre-tax income of $2.4 billion, adjusted pre-tax income1 of $1.7 billion
dakotafred Those cars, buses and planes don't make money, either.
For now -- with a lot of input from the taxpayer. The real story is told by the lousy stock prices; by the many trips to bankruptcy court and the folded lines; and by somebody's finding that, from the beginnings of commercial flight, the industry hasn't made a red cent, even with the ongoing public help.
The point is that the railroads' discovery of generations ago holds true for every transportation mode: You can't make money hauling people. Not without a lot of that public support.
I continue to argue the case for equal treatment for passenger rail that meets a public purpose and is well patronized.
Let's have a rational national transportation policy, with each mode encouraged for the niche it works best: airlines for longer distances and isolated communities; fast rail in ~500 mile corridors connecting major metro areas, along with a few LD routes; buses connecting the grid by feeding into rail and air.
You refuse to look at facts. Airlines have cycles dependent on the economy and fuel prices. So do railroads. Airlines have had bankruptcies and reorganizations. So have the rqils, many, many times. Some airlines went out of business. So have railroads. Airlines are profitable currently. So are the rails. So are Acela and the Auto-Train on Amtrak.
Amtrak does not need to be profitable, but it could be largely self-sufficient (aside from infrastructure) if we let it do what can do best (and the "free" market confirms this). This is especially important because running many trains at huge operating losses makes it vulnerable to GOP congresses that are largely anti-passenger rail.
I don't know whether anybody has ever said it before, but I'll say it here:
"The mere fact that the other person has stopped talking does not mean you have won the argument."
ACY I don't know whether anybody has ever said it before, but I'll say it here: "The mere fact that the other person has stopped talking does not mean you have won the argument."
Your quite right. Thanks to your encouragement on the issue I am going to push Amtrak on the issue and see what happens. I think I will frame the argument as reducing back or load injuries while resupplying Amtrak trains enroute. That should capture their attention.
Electroliner 1935Yes, but even McDonalds has had issues with sanitation of the dispenser heads, they need to be cleaned per strict rules. Also, you need CO2 tanks and carbonators to supply the water. I doubt that Ed Ellis uses syrup on his cars.
Actually incorrect there, dispenser heads you just unscrew and scrub the dried syrup with a toothbrush rinse with sanitizer fluid. It is not rigourous. If an Amtrak train ever saw the patronage of a local McDonald's we wouldn't have started this thread. So your dealing with a LOT less usage on an Amtrak train and a lot less volume used since Amtrak does not sell super-sized anything.
Amtrak would only need to clean the dispensers once a day at the most. The rest of the dispenser is self-maintaining and the rest of the machine is owned by a Coke or Pepsi contractor, they do not repair or patch, they replace.
I agree even that simple nightly cleaning event would be a major chore for an Amtrak employee hence you have the cans of soda which are costing the company a LOT more.
When I was in the Legacy Lounge in Chicago Union Station the attendent there was taking the hot water out of the coffee machine to fill a spray bottle then spraying it on the counter to wipe (with no other additive to the water). Think about that for a moment in your head. Hot water sent through the atmosphere via a spray nozzle before it hits a cold counter (heh-heh).
Anyways thats why I mentioned bringing the bartender back in the Lounge. He could also be responsible for the dispenser in the dining car.
I am not aware of railroad dining/club cars ever dispensing alcahol by the shot glass from a bottle of spirits. They have, in my experience, always used 'miniture' containers of the named spirit. Minitures can be accounted for by number; the number of shots from a bottle will vary with the steadiness of the bar tenders hand (wink wink, nod nod). Not accounting for booze can be contributory to losing $985M a year operating a casino.
Nowadays the high volume bars use computerized drink measuring and dispensing equipment. Your corner bar may vary.
BaltACD I am not aware of railroad dining/club cars ever dispensing alcahol by the shot glass from a bottle of spirits. They have, in my experience, always used 'miniture' containers of the named spirit. Minitures can be accounted for by number; the number of shots from a bottle will vary with the steadiness of the bar tenders hand (wink wink, nod nod). Not accounting for booze can be contributory to losing $985M a year operating a casino. Nowadays the high volume bars use computerized drink measuring and dispensing equipment. Your corner bar may vary.
Actually provided a picture earlier of the 1940 Hiawatha with full liquor bottles in the background on the club car. I suspect the mini-bottles appeared towards the end of Private Passenger Car service, once the airlines started ordering them as an Economy measure but I have no clue.......when they first appeared.
However, I am not really concerned all that much about the alchol distribution, primarily due to the markup on booz and the space and weight it takes up it is arguable to which method is better. Though with a bartender on board, might be a personal preference thing. Soda and Iced Tea are more price sensitive and less room for markup. Also, carbonated Soda I believe is more perishable than it's syrup. Not sure about brewed Iced Tea vs Syrup Iced Tea as far as which has a better shelf life.
In 1971, the C&NW provided liquor in miniature bottles--for $1 a bottle.
I don't have my copy of Pullman's instructions for buffet service here, but, as I recall, it describes the serving of liquor in miniature bottles--the attendant was to show the bottle to the customer before breaking the seal.
CMStPnP ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more. ...
ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain
...
You do not mention the space needed for the water, to mix with the syrup and gas. They would need to carry water, over and above what they already carry.
MidlandMike CMStPnP ACY . It requires occasional replenishment with syrup and soda water, which must be stored in cars with limited storage space. It requires a floor drain It only requires regular water to which syrup is added, the carbonation comes out of a pressurized tank, all three are combined at the dispenser. Combined the syrup and pressurized tank would cut on board storage requirements vs canned soda by at least 2/3 if not more. ... You do not mention the space needed for the water, to mix with the syrup and gas. They would need to carry water, over and above what they already carry.
Soda fountain
Looks like it takes a lot of space even in a McDonalds. Add to that the large water tanks needed on a train and........
OK, lol, I will admit now that I did not know that Amtrak service personell get confused which color coded hose connects to the water tank to refill.........gross.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2012/04/30/epa-orders-amtrak-to-test-drinking-water-on-trains/#2953e07844ad
That is kind of sad but it also kind of proves something about supervision of Amtrak health standards I guess.
DeggestyI don't have my copy of Pullman's instructions for buffet service here...
Until you can get it, you can find the beverage instructions here on p.21. Notably this says
...always show the bottle to the passenger before opening. This will act as a protection to employe [sic] as he will be assured that he is serving the passenger just what is wanted. All bottles must be opened in the presence of passenger.
Note also the immediately preceding instructions about suggestive upselling, and that a seltzer siphon (charged with CO2 gas) will be provided free ... if grudgingly ... on request. I'd be tempted to consider using something like a SodaStream machine (charged from a larger tank and not overpriced Israeli cartridges) if extending the 'make as you go' model to car service: this would entail filling a bottle with potable water, adding an appropriate metered squirt of syrup, and locking the device onto the carbonator for a timed charge, after which the bottle would be capped and transported to the customer 'for display', opened and dispensed. It should be possible to control sanitation and cleanliness in this environment as it would NOT be for dispensing mixed soda into open glasses. Interestingly, it would also be possible to adjust some of the soda characteristics (e.g., adding additional malic or citric acid for more 'tang' or hands-free adding custom flavors like vanilla or cherry) for any particular bottle on request, probably for a value-added additional charge; this would be enormously simpler and cheaper than doing 'all that' in a computerized machine like the current Coke versions, and would not be subject to the mechanical and sanitary failures of such machines in a vibrating environment away from convenient service tech access...
I remain quite convinced that closed bottles are a better solution for soda service in most 'commodity' passenger-service requirements where a limited number of soda choices is inherently tolerable. It is also possible -- albeit with a better commissary system in general -- to stow a certain number of specialty products that have been requested by passengers (a few bottles of Briar's or Reed's, perhaps, or diet drinks for PKU sensitives) without incurring the sort of major storage-space-requirement ballooning that corresponds to planogram wars in supermarkets. Hard to beat the simplicity of bringing a few stackable crates full of pre-carbonated bottles and cans aboard compared to tinkering with CO2 tankage, regular rinse, purge and wipedown of nozzles, checking and opening up the syrup rack to change pouches on rough track, etc. If the train weren't moving, and you could easily arrange for the NuCO2 guy to service your Dewar when and wherever you needed it, the typical restaurant (or bar) model for soda dispensing might be attractive... if it weren't a Government-associated show.
(Personally, I was never happier than when I had a freshly-made "Am and Cheese" sandwich, a red can of Coke, and a tall plastic cup full of cold pebbled ice to take to my seat... but I'm hardly typical of Pullman customers.)
I try to avoid getting sucked into this nonsense, but you just won't quit, will you? I'm really, really, REALLY getting sick of this.
If your last comment proves anything, it proves that you are all too willing to use poorly interpreted, very old data to make your shaky points. Sanitation is a very serious issue, and I don't want to deny that. But a bit of perspective seems to be called for.
The article came out in 2012, four years ago, and cites information from 2009 and 2010, six and seven years ago. It says serious problems (fecal coliform bacteria) were found in three passenger cars and one water stanchion at one location in Sunnyside Yard, New York. It does note some less serious nonfecal coliform bactreria discovered in a small number of additional cars. If you read the whole article, you will discover that EPA did this testing after discovering such problems on an astounding 15% of airliners at 19 airports. In other words, the problem at Amtrak was far less severe than on the airlines. The article says nothing about any such Amtrak problems since 2010. I know it's presumptuous, but could that be because there haven't been any?
I know Amtrak inspectors routinely do inspect the cars and the water stanchions. In fact, I personally am aware of a situation where an Amtrak inspector checked the stanchions at a local rewatering facility and found that they were contaminated. Further investigation revealead that the contamination originated in the LOCAL CITY WATER SUPPLY, and was not caused by anything Amtrak did. The local folks were notified immediately, corrective measures were taken, and the city water supply was brought into compliance quickly and without incident. That, of course, never found its way into your Forbes article because a problem solved is not juicy news.
To add insult to injury, you say Amtrak service personnel get confused as to which color coded hose to use to differentiate potable from nonpotable water. You don't just suggest it or imply it. You state it categorically. Nowhere in the article was it even remotely suggested that the contamination came from that. It could have come any of a number of sources. My own best guess is that it was from an underground leak. That's just a guess, but it's probably a much better guess than your own quackamamie ideas.
I have no idea how you think this addresses the many objections to your harebrained schemes to apply the standards of a stationary restaurant to the realities of a mobile facility with limited space, limited windows of opportunity for service, and all the other factors that distinguish railroad food service.
The little dig about the intelligence of Amtrak service personnel was just icing on the cake.
Is it any wonder that I have such a hard time taking you seriously?
ACY,
Your posts are written very well. Were you an English teacher at some point in your life?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
schlimmSoda fountain Looks like it takes a lot of space even in a McDonalds. Add to that the large water tanks needed on a train and...
Except that's not a soda fountain, it's a high-speed automated drink machine. The purpose is primarily for 'fire and forget' drink ordering for the takeout line in a fast-food restaurant: that environment does not exist on a train, let alone any prospective dining or lounge-car service.
McDonald's had a previous (very, very interesting and successful) version of this approach in their older drink machine. The employee (who was assumed to be young, fairly inexperienced in the wiles of 'soda jerking', and not terribly quality motivated) held the glass up against the dispensing bar, and the computer metered a 'full charge' of ice and drink into the cup, staging the feed to avoid overfoaming and underfilling, without further attention. The time and aggravation this simple thing solved, especially at rush times, was amazing. Probably very useful on a moving train, too, and with no greater 'footprint' than an ordinary close-quarters soda dispenser.
If it were possible to get around the various sanitary issues and Federal regulations with an enforceable set of policies and procedures and good maintenance equipment, I don't think the 'logistical' issues involved with a dispenser vs. the 'equivalent' in bottles and cans are particularly insoluble on -- let's say, a modular lounge-car interior that would actually fit in a Viewliner II shell. [/snark] The various syrups would be packaged in pouches, probably with a better method of latching and connecting them to the lines, and these could easily be made in smaller individual size than the large ones needed for, say, a high-volume fast-food store. An individual cabinet 'out of the way' accessible without bending or stooping or banging the anatomy when bad geometry is encountered is not rocket science, and even if there needs to be a procedure to purge and flush the feed line when syrup is changed (I don't see a reason for this if done promptly when a reservoir is near empty) that can be done reasonably quickly to sealable container. I never had a particular problem with CO2 bottles in the Cottage taproom, where we served a far larger crowd than any train, even with a discotheque car, would produce, although there does need to be some care with interlocks for the valving and lines, and I think you'd need wheels and oversized handles to carry the tankage up and down tight stairs and corridors and guards to ensure that the inevitable drops or banging wouldn't damage valves, create impromptu rocket motors, etc. The hard part is the drain if there's lots of slop in the ice dispenser, excessive foamover on filling, leaks in nozzles, etc. but I can think of several expedient solutions to this that would work for any extended period. I don't consider adding volume of potable water roughly equivalent to the volume now provided in the full load of bottles and cans to be an insoluble difficulty, nor do I think that a proper portable station to filter and treat this water as it goes into the dispenser (think refrigerator icemaker filters, people) is colossally impractical.
The real issue, though, is as Tom described (from hard and reasonably long) experience: the amount of work and general tribulation added to the car attendants' jobs to support a fountain and all its maintenance requirements will quickly eat up any marginal savings on the food cost of the individual drink servings. Let alone the first lawsuit when a step is missed in one of the procedures and a customer even sees an opportunity to complain. Sealed bottles, as noted here and elsewhere, have few if any of those potential problems, are easily replenished from many ad hoc sources enroute or delivered by untrained personnel, and (as has not been mentioned yet) can be easily removed from the train and stowed cheaply if unused on a particular run, or kept on the car indefinitely if rules permit. That will probably NOT be the case for syrup in (or around) a dispenser, especially if for some reason the car is off power or shore HVAC for any great length of time...
JPS1:
I take that as a great compliment, but nope.
Eight years of Catholic Parochial school under the tutelage of the Sisters of the Holy Humility of Mary, then four years of high school under the Brothers of Holy Cross (same folks who run Notre Dame). After that, I spent several years in a couple different colleges, mostly as an English major, but I really think my strongest grounding in English came under Brother Harold, Brother Liguori, and Mr. Schmidt in High School. I never graduated from college for a number of reasons (excuses?), and spent most of my life working in one form or another of service jobs. The last 26 years before retirement in 2014 were in service as an Amtrak onboard service attendant.
It may be a shock to CMStPnP, but I knew what hose to use to fill the tanks, and I did it hundreds --- maybe thousands --- of times without killing anybody!
RMEThe real issue, though, is as Tom described (from hard and reasonably long) experience: the amount of work and general tribulation added to the car attendants' jobs to support a fountain and all its maintenance requirements will quickly eat up any marginal savings on the food cost of the individual drink servings.
I think that's what most of us have been saying.
RMENote also the immediately preceding instructions about suggestive upselling, and that a seltzer siphon (charged with CO2 gas) will be provided free ... if grudgingly ... on request. I'd be tempted to consider using something like a SodaStream machine (charged from a larger tank and not overpriced Israeli cartridges) if extending the 'make as you go' model to car service: this would entail filling a bottle with potable water, adding an appropriate metered squirt of syrup, and locking the device onto the carbonator for a timed charge, after which the bottle would be capped and transported to the customer 'for display', opened and dispensed. It should be possible to control sanitation and cleanliness in this environment as it would NOT be for dispensing mixed soda into open glasses. Interestingly, it would also be possible to adjust some of the soda characteristics (e.g., adding additional malic or citric acid for more 'tang' or hands-free adding custom flavors like vanilla or cherry) for any particular bottle on request, probably for a value-added additional charge; this would be enormously simpler and cheaper than doing 'all that' in a computerized machine like the current Coke versions, and would not be subject to the mechanical and sanitary failures of such machines in a vibrating environment away from convenient service tech access...
That refers to Selzer Water described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_syphon
It's a slightly different concept as the water is pre-carbonated in the bottle before it is added into a cup not mixed at a dispenser nozzle. Not sure if you have any experience with that type of setup but if your not careful with the dispensing lever it sprays selzer water everywhere (lol). There is skill there in dispensing.
As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. Those LD trains generate HUGE and I mean HUGE amounts of trash and if you look most is all paper, card board, plastic water bottles, etc. Surprised they don't have a trash compactor but that is just me letting my mind wonder.
Of course we should probably ask if they make the ICE on board or load it as well in bags into a freezer. I would guess the former but with Amtrak it could very be the latter <lets hope not>.
I dealt with COKE products mostly which included their Gold Peak Tea line of syrups as well as all their usual flavors FANTA ORANGE, DR PEPPER, SPRITE, DIET COKE, REGULAR COKE, ROOT BEER, etc. Gold Peak tea was a labor saver as you no longer had to brew tea first then ice it.
Syrup is resupplied by COKE, anywhere in the United States there is a restaurant, just call an 800 number and they will setup a date and time for you. I am sure they could work out a deal with COKE for resupply in an emergency to a train on the move as well as to the commissary. As I said before the dispenser itself does not require electric power or HVAC it uses the CO2 and pistons to propel the syrup to the nozzle, the syrup is mixed at the nozzle with the water and carbonation in the exact portions that COKE preset on the machine. COKE would take care of the machine and replace / maintain it. Actually, no maintenance or patching they just replace. They do not trust their clients to do so as they want a quality steady level of service and taste no matter where you buy a Coke. Thats how they protect their brand.
The Syrup comes as a bag in a box with a hose to connect to the CO2 piston, two sizes of syrup small size for about $8-10 and large size for about $18. Large size lasts about 1200 servings approx, Small about 600........just guessing on servings as I forget but am in the general ballpark. Large size box a little larger than the size of a shoe box. Small size about half.
Really only way Amtrak could screw this up is by running out of CO2, which by the way you can get from any welding supply company in the United States via phone call and account. They swap the tanks and disconnect / reconnect them for you if you ask. And I said earlier there is a fairly quiet alarm that goes off as the CO2 gets low but it continues to serve for a while after that. Quiet beeping sound, powered by CO2 pressure.
In regards to cleaning you only have to clean the nozzle and COKE provides a kit with clear instructions. I am absolutely confident EPA, FDA or whatever else would not be more stringent than that. What happens if you don't clean the nozzle, well it takes a lot of servings to show up ( approx 400+) but the syrup has a tendency to coagulate in the nozzle. It would be gross to see it floating in a cup but I doubt anyone would get sick and it's not a critical item on the health department inspection unless you miss it chronically. As for the front of the dispenser if you bought a small client facing dispenser instead of a wand (like bartenders use), the ice catch and overfill catch drain to a regular floor drain. You just need to pour HOT WATER down the drain sometimes during heavy usage to clear the ice and liquid, I have never seen it clog but if it does there is also a declog stick COKE provides. Front of the Client facing dispenser, wipe down with a spray of sanitizer as needed and cloth........they have to do that anyway on a cafe serving line. It's really not complicated. Coke does most of the work and service to protect their brand.
Oh and when you see HVAC on a Coke machine it is used to pre-chill the water and syrup lines or keep the ICE in the ICE hopper cool, both items are unnecessary for operation, you only need the syrup, water, CO2......and just pour it over ICE....same deal with the cans. Sometimes served warm with a glass of ICE.
I think we beat this horse to death, time to move on.
OK, kids, I have had no experience in this business, but it seems to me that the difference in cost of serving drinks with either method would be mighty insignificant compared to the total cost of running any food service on a train.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimmI think that's what most of us have been saying.
User Maintenence is roughly equal to brushing your teeth at night. Everything else is covered by COKE and it's contractors. Reachable via 800 number and they even have emergency service.
CMStPnP schlimm User Maintenence is roughly equal to brushing your teeth at night. Everything else is covered by COKE and it's contractors. Reachable via 800 number and they even have emergency service.
schlimm
We can put hard numbers on this (and get a partial answer to what Paul noted) at this point.
Compare what Coke would charge for the installation for a month (net of all overhead) plus the marginal 'food cost' for all the factors
with
the cost to supply the current number of bottled drinks via the commissary system (either Amtrak's or a politically-acceptable substitute) for the same period.
That includes the time cost involved with serving and, if necessary, delivering the completed drink orders. (The cost for 'spillage' of open drinks on poor track involves minimal food cost, but substantial crew cost for the cleanups, so it might be useful for Tom to approximate what the number of spilled open drinks vs. dispensed bottles might involve. That's the only cost that I think needs to be approximated for our purposes.)
Be interesting to see what Coke would put together as a service package for typical LD dining-car operation, including operational contingencies, business-interruption insurance coverage, etc. They might even be willing to provide a lower quote for the publicity inherent in the operation.
Personally, I agree with Paul that the absolute savings aren't 'relevant enough' to make concentrating on this part of the service more than a demonstration of effective planning and execution within overall competent management. But remember that the topic of this thread isn't the same as the previous one(s) where this beverage option was beaten to death -- the context here is explicitly that a high-end operator is providing service 'on his dime' that is inherently part of making a coherent 'user experience' that will justify enough revenue and return business to make the thing -- including the food and beverage service, though perhaps not as a pure line-item -- practical enough to at least carry it through the 'bad times' of lower passenger loading (which I think is one thing that killed the profitability of the CofNO add-on service that Ed Ellis was trying to run).
There might be a way to promote 'bottled beverages' as an option (see the comments about the Pullman commissary instructions on this very subject) but I think it might be more difficult to do this with 'ordinary' sodas and drinks in the luxury context. I'd tacitly agree with Paul that there's far more importance in things like reducing the cost of good food alternatives, and assuring the right attitude for 'customer interactions'. But I also can't help but wonder whether careful and thoughtful attention to saving money in every detail of food-service execution would count for something when it comes time to defend the retention of that service in the annual Congress run-around. That's why I've been following the involved discussion and taken careful notes on the points that have been made, here and elsewhere, by people with very different experiences in providing what they acknowledge to be appropriate customer service.
CM:
Yes, we had ice makers and trash compactors on the Amtrak Auto Train when it was equipped with single level heritage equipment. They were subject to all the buffeting that you might expect on the inconsistent and unpredictable track Amtrak trains use. They worked fine as long as they worked; a PIA when they broke down enroute with no way to fix them.
You say Coke will send a guy out on a service call 24/7. So he meets the train at some godforsaken outpost and climbs aboard. You say it's a 24/7 service, so let's say he gets aboard at 3 am so he can have the Coke machine repaired by the time the lounge car opens in the morning. He finishes at 6 am, and the train has moved 150 miles down the track, so the vehicle he arrived in is nowhere to be seen. Next train back to his vehicle is midnight tonight. You didn't think they were going to hold the train and tie up the host RR for a Coke machine, did you? This guy, who is accustomed to working on stationary Coke machines, must do his work while the train is in motion. Has he been trained in the Amtrak "Move Smart" program? Who paid for that training? Who is liable if he gets hurt while he's working on board? Isn't it a lot simpler and easier to just stock canned Coke?
You are parading a bunch of solutions, in search of a problem.
RMEWe can put hard numbers on this
Who will do that?
Soft drink dispensers, in addition to being space-eaters, are heavy.
(Also, I added info to my last previous post).
RMEThere might be a way to promote 'bottled beverages' as an option (see the comments about the Pullman commissary instructions on this very subject) but I think it might be more difficult to do this with 'ordinary' sodas and drinks in the luxury context.
Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice. That is fast-food quality. The soda dispenser also seems to have a lot more problems than canned drinks. Whatever cost benefits there are (if any) seem trivial.
schlimmIf a soft drink dispenser is such a money saver, why don't the airlines do that? Most people prefer soft drinks in a can or screw-top plastic bottle. European lines I ride use cans and bottles, BTW.
Looking at most self-serve soda dispensers in convenience stores and the like, I usually opt for the bottles. Plus the fact the public has their hands all over those dispensers and nozzles- and that people as a general rule are pretty disgusting...
RMECompare what Coke would charge for the installation for a month (net of all overhead) plus the marginal 'food cost' for all the factors
COKE only charges for the retail cost of the syrup and the cleaning kits. Everything else is free of charge including use of the machine, onsite labor, delivery costs of syrup.
They have a min purchase of syrup, min five large boxes with one delivery or it is not worth their while to send the truck.
The pistons on the machine are built like a tank other than the nozzles this is the only breakable item and I never had a machine break or seen one broken.
If you wanted you can call the local COKE distributor and price the difference but once you do that he will be all over you like a bad suit to get a machine installed and syrup delivered as that is where he gets commission from. Thats if you did it independently. Most firms have a National Account Number with COKE and work through one guy unless they are a large distributor then the guy is local.
Because there are only how many passengers on a flight and for how long? Also those compressed CO2 gas cylinders not sure how altitude changes impact them but I think the bottom line reason is they are really heavy when full. Most can move them when empty but you need a dolly when they are heavy. Also, what about a leak of CO2 on a enclosed space like an airplane not and issue on a train the ventilation could probably handle on a train.......airplane I think the ventiilation is weaker.
schlimm RME Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice.
RME
Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice.
No, it does not. The point I was making is that there may be 'value' to presenting a bottle of 'high-end' soda or water to a client in a luxury setting, but not bringing out a Diet Coke or even Barq's/Schweppe's "name-brand" bottle. So if a luxury client wants a Coke (in something like a tall crystal glass with the right kind of recommended 'wet' ice, garnish and so forth) there would be relatively less added 'perceived value' in letting him or her see you were opening up a fresh can or bottle.
I'm surprised (but glad) that no one brought up the 'bright idea' of using relatively inexpensive two-liter bottles instead of individual portion control, even though that is probably the lowest-cost approach per served drink (net of all capital and repair) of them all. Not a good answer on a train in this context, even hidden behind a bar, for many reasons.
The comparison numbers ought to come from CMStP&P as he has current connections with people at the Coca-Cola Company and he probably understands wholesale costing and availability for cases of canned and individual-bottle goods. I can probably work something up but it won't be current.
Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved?
I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible.
However, as you probably should have noted, the cost of the service contract that would provide the 'necessary' service -- which might make sense if it could be amortized across thousands of customers a day -- would all by itself destroy most if not all the competitive cost advantage of dispensed drinks over pre-packaged and passively stable cans or bottles on a luxury train.
RME schlimm RME Luxury does not imply soda from a machine in a cup with ice. No, it does not. The point I was making is that there may be 'value' to presenting a bottle of 'high-end' soda or water to a client in a luxury setting, but not bringing out a Diet Coke or even Barq's/Schweppe's "name-brand" bottle. So if a luxury client wants a Coke (in something like a tall crystal glass with the right kind of recommended 'wet' ice, garnish and so forth) there would be relatively less added 'perceived value' in letting him or her see you were opening up a fresh can or bottle. I'm surprised (but glad) that no one brought up the 'bright idea' of using relatively inexpensive two-liter bottles instead of individual portion control, even though that is probably the lowest-cost approach per served drink (net of all capital and repair) of them all. Not a good answer on a train in this context, even hidden behind a bar, for many reasons. The comparison numbers ought to come from CMStP&P as he has current connections with people at the Coca-Cola Company and he probably understands wholesale costing and availability for cases of canned and individual-bottle goods. I can probably work something up but it won't be current. Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved? I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible. However, as you probably should have noted, the cost of the service contract that would provide the 'necessary' service -- which might make sense if it could be amortized across thousands of customers a day -- would all by itself destroy most if not all the competitive cost advantage of dispensed drinks over pre-packaged and passively stable cans or bottles on a luxury train.
Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
CMStPnP ... As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. ...
As for carrying all this extra water, I'm too pretty sure the onboard tanks can handle the supply, have my doubts they carry extra bottled water currently for Coffee or Tea, though it would be humorous to see them pour previously loaded bottled water into a coffee maker based on what we learned so far I would not be surprised if that was the practice. ...
My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
RME .... Just as a note: he said the Coca-Cola guy would switch out the whole machine, or at the very least some diagnosed set of FRUs, and that should not take very long. If for some reason the train couldn't wait the few minutes for that, it seems pretty obvious that the repairman would have a co-driver who would take the service vehicle to the next scheduled stop and pick him up -- why should he need to sit around hours and hours waiting for uncertain return connections to whatever random burg he left an expensively provisioned service vehicle parked, when he could be doing other business (or going home) with only an additional driver's salary expense involved? I do not know whether there is a cost-effective level of preventive maintenance inspection, or remote monitoring, that would preclude most 'surprise' catastrophic failures in the first place. Certainly there is enough capability in the control bandwidth of the train's Internet connection to stream diagnostic ASCII messages with minimal latency, and I suspect enough repair personnel distributed across the United States to allow a reasonably rapid response time (again, to replace stuff rather than start tinkering with it in the cramped quarters of a train while passengers line up to watch the fun) possible. ....
....
Or they could just have the local Coke distributor leave some cartons of canned Coke products at the next station.
schlimmSandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
Oh I know that but this is a discussion forum as well to discuss things like this. I'll throw in the towel because I think we are beating a dead horse here. It was an interesting discussion.
MidlandMikeMy presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
See now that concept I would have trouble grasping because it implies that people drink Soda as an additional intake of fluids in all cases instead of a substitute for some other fluids. I would have a problem believing that as it also implies two digestive tracts, one for regular water and one for soda water.
CMStPnP schlimm Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges. Oh I know that but this is a discussion forum as well to discuss things like this. I'll throw in the towel because I think we are beating a dead horse here. It was an interesting discussion.
schlimm Sandwich shops and dining cars are apples and oranges.
This thread was about an Ed Ellis-style deluxe sleeper and dining car experience substituting for the standard Amtrak version on some LD trains. Your brief experience with a sandwich shop seems rather irrelevant, including soft drink delivery modes.
CMStPnP MidlandMike My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is. See now that concept I would have trouble grasping because it implies that people drink Soda as an additional intake of fluids in all cases instead of a substitute for some other fluids. I would have a problem believing that as it also implies two digestive tracts, one for regular water and one for soda water.
MidlandMike My presumption is that the water tanks in diners are sized for what they need, and any additional required volume for fountain drinks would have to be found. I would be happy to listen to someone who knows for sure which way it is.
Think about that again. It isn't such a difficult propsition. [Hint: the soda is now in cans.]
schlimmThink about that again. It isn't such a difficult propsition. [Hint: the soda is now in cans.]
Damn man how big is your bladder? Mine is still the natural size and still inside the body version.
So your presumption is that a cup of soda, is taken in addition to a cup of water to quench ones thirst? Now I understand they bring bottled water on board in addition to soda but if all of it was consumed in addition to the water in the tanks thats a lot of fluids per person consumed.
You really don't get it? The tanks are sized for a variety of current needs, not including dispensing soda because it is in cans. So now you would have to carry more water tanks (for the machine) in addition. Of course you could eliminate the soda cans, but the machine likely takes up more space. The space in diners is very limited.
You want to substitute fountain soda for can soda. That is what you would need more water capacity for. Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume? I think Schlimm has also answered your reply.
As far as I know the LD trains with Superliners that are 2-3 days in travel length have their water tanks topped off enroute. I doubt you would expand the tanks, if anything you could add another water stop but with the given stops and the passengers a LD Superliner carries, I think they have plenty of water onboard.
Amtrak Standard Maintenance Procedure 47601 "Water Tank Flush" revised 12/20/2005 lists the following cars types with the following water system capacity:Superliner I diner 660 gallonsSuperliner I all other types 500 gallonsSuperliner II deluxe sleeper 600 gallonsSuperliner II all other types 500 gallons
MidlandMikeWhy would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume?
Using the same logic one could argue the blackwater tanks fill faster with soda cans onboard because the serving size is greater. It's kind of a dumb argument either way in my view. Because those tanks are serviced enroute as well.
Oops, one more thing on the Soda / Water topic. Amfleet has the Toilet system water supply seperate from the general water supply via tanks because Amfleet toilets use more water than a Superliner Toilet. Superliner Toilet uses very little water and is largely a vacuum flush. Hence most of the water on a Superliner Sleeper goes for showers, sinks and drinking. On a Superliner Diner, you'll note there are no showers, and I can't speak for the lower level but on the upper level no restrooms. Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry.
Superliner Lounge, I don't remember if there are bathrooms if any but I will point out that the upper level wet bar is now used just for storage on most runs. There is a sink in the lower snack bar I believe for the attendent to wash his hands and probably also some beverage prep. BTW, most health departments mandate a sink for handwashing in food serving areas. Not sure how Amtrak handles that but I am pretty confident they have to follow it.
Onto the interesting points, I read that Amfleet I currently does have problems running out of water for toilets on runs longer than an overnight trip and it is the reason the tank on a Amfleet II for toilet use is 150 gallons vs 60 gallons for Amfleet I. So that might be the reason Amtrak does not intermix Amfleet I or II with Superliners on the Western Routes. Seems via their design (horrible) they have a distance limitation for water servicing for toilets BUT they both have a much larger water tank for general use outside of toilets. Why the need for two seperate water tanks on Amfleet is anyones guess.
Viewliner Sleeper all I have for water tank is 400-500 gallons.
You would think there would be an Amtrak Standard on Water Tank size but then again, they can't seem to stick with the same passenger car specs or builder over time so it will probably be mix and match in the future as well.
Couple more points, I have been riding Amtrak since formation. The water bottles placed in the Superliner Sleepers was not done from their introduction it was added later. Also the bar on the upper lounge used to serve chips and drinks just like the lower bar does today, the only difference is the lower snack bar has a microwave and serves sandwiches as well. There is an upper sink an lower sink in the lounge car easily meeting the drain requirement. Likewise for handwashing there has to be a sink in both the upper level and lower level of the dining car as well.
As for there not being any room on board for soft drink dispenser, seriously? To me it sounds like Old Men being ornary than a real engineering judgement.
CMStPnPSeems via their design (horrible) they have a distance limitation for water servicing for toilets BUT they both have a much larger water tank for general use outside of toilets. Why the need for two seperate water tanks on Amfleet is anyones guess.
I woudl guess that it would allow them to use a non-potable water source for the toilets in a pinch.
CMStP&P:
1. "On a Superliner Diner, you'll note there are no showers." Very perceptive. I'm sure most readers are shocked to read that.
2. Yes, Superliner diners have restroom facilities on the lower level for crew use only. They are off limits to passengers because access means passing through a food prep area. The chef can't be expected to hold it for the entire trip.
3. You say "...the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry." I have been on many trips with three full dinner seatings (180 or more passenger dinners, plus additional for the crew) when meals have been served on china and the dishwasher ran out of water before all the dishes were finished. The unwashed dishes were manually rinsed and set aside, and the washing was completed in the morning after the midnight water stop.
4. Superliner Sightseer Lounges have restrooms on the lower level. There are some variations in appontments, but I think this is true of all of them. At least, it's true of the ones I've worked.
5. In general, Lounge car attendants have two sinks. One is for food prep, and the other is for hand washing. With your experience in food prep, this should be no surprise to you.
6. Do you suggest Amtrak should waste potable water by using it to flush toilets?
7. I don't understand the relevance of the remark about Amtrak not providing bottled water in the past, but doing so now. It's never been explained to me and I've never cared enough to ask. However, I surmise it's because of the widespread acceptance of bottled water by the general public in the past generation or so. Passengers want it, so Amtrak provides it. I guess you are suggesting this has something to do with the quality of Amtrak tap water, which is perfectly fine. It does vary in flavor, depending on the local water supply at refill points. The OP may think many years of drinking water from Amtrak oboard taps has affected my powers of reason, but that's his opinion (to which I guess he is entitled).
8. Just because a drain exists, does not mean it's located in the right place to serve a Coke machine which, for any of a number of reasons, might have to be located a considerable distance away. But I'm tired of talking about your dang Coke machines.
9. Why do I waste my time?
Hey AC, you aare not wasting your time because other readers find your comments perceptive and informative. I see no reason for soft-drink machines on trains that have crewed meal and beverage service of any type. In fact, in one public building that I frequent they are a real nuscence, since users place their used cups and bottles on the water fountain that I would otherwise use!
I used the SP automat car on the Coast Daylight prior to Amtrak once. The food and coffee were a lot better than the really poor stuff Penn Central was dishing out in its snack cars that had replaced diners, Empire Service and Chicago - Detroit, but any Amtrak cafe car was better, in my opinion.
I don't remember just which trip it was, bu oncet in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a sower after we left Denver.
I don't remember just which trip it was, but once in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a shower after we left Denver.
ACY8. Just because a drain exists, does not mean it's located in the right place to serve a Coke machine which, for any of a number of reasons, might have to be located a considerable distance away. But I'm tired of talking about your dang Coke machines. 9. Why do I waste my time? Tom
ACY: You aren't wasting our time, but factual responses to CMStPnP's monologue about soft drink machines is probably wasting your own. I have no explanation for his fascination with those machines.
schlimmI have no explanation for his fascination with those machines.
Except that you and others keep asking me to explain different areas like a online Trivial Persuit game. Look I offered to cease the conversation twice but like the GodFather I keep getting sucked back in. So just give up on the conversation and it will go away. I fully understand that Amtrak won't get to the soda dispensers until if first addresses the must higher priority items that are driving it's costs higher than they should be.
ACY is retired from Amtrak nobody expects him to speak for them or explain items unless someone calls on him specifically. We should be able to speak freely about Amtrak or any other railroad topic on the forum within the limitations of the owner of the forum (Trains Magazine)........which of course excludes individual poster limitations to shutdown conversations they may not agree with or do not like.
Deggesty I don't remember just which trip it was, but once in the last two years I was unable to take a shower on #5 the morning after leaving Chicago because there was no water available. I was able to take a shower after we left Denver.
Well that could be explained in a few ways. Perhaps they didn't top off in Chicago, you had a shower queen on board, there could have been a slow leak in the tank.
Those sleepers may be just sitting around, but that service between New Oreleans and Chicago was discontinued for a reason - it did not make money, despite its premium cost tickets. So why would you expect a sleeper from Boston to Virginia to be profitable for someone other than AMTRAK to operate.
I have travelled tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak. I have seen potable water filled on every long distance trip. I have never seen black tanks serviced enroute. Are you sure about that one?
CMStPnP MidlandMike Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume? Using the same logic one could argue the blackwater tanks fill faster with soda cans onboard because the serving size is greater. It's kind of a dumb argument either way in my view. Because those tanks are serviced enroute as well.
MidlandMike Why would changing from fountain soda to cans have any thing to do with how much drinking water people would consume?
You seem to go into contortions to not answer a simple question. You imply the question is dumb, but yet you can't seem to answer it.
CMStPnP ... Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry. ...
... Most of the water on a Superliner Diner is used for either the dishwasher or food prep..........I am sure there is some left over since it has the largest tank in the fleet and I am sure the dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry.
Why would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on.
MidlandMikeWhy would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on.
Your absolutely right, I completely missed the fact the Auto Train was a Western LD train now and has the same level of patronage as other LD trains.........Sorry about that.
Excuse me, where did I say they did not need the water tank at all? I think I said expansion of them would not be an issue.
AMTRAKKER I have travelled tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak. I have seen potable water filled on every long distance trip. I have never seen black tanks serviced enroute. Are you sure about that one?
From now on all future questions, please use Google I am winding down the conversation to avoid hurt feelings. Everything I found I used Google. I should have asked people to use Google before but I had a hunch they would not. BTW, surprise I found which is kind of gross too. Lavatory sinks still drain to the tracks even with the retention tanks....oops. So it could very well be they are not the only drain to track routing and the retention tanks are just for raw sewage.
ACY
I have to write to a wider audience than you as you can tell from all the clarification posts and demands for follow-up. Different minds and thinking levels have to be attended to.
A big part of your issue is you read into what I write interpreting it all as written for you instead of a larger audience. You can ask for clarification. Point 7 for example was partly in response to the demand I provide information on where the extra water would come. Which I still think is a question asked without much thinking. I merely provided an example where Amtrak added Bottled Water to Sleeping Cars yet did not increase the size of the retention tanks which is a reverse of the we need to add capacity to the water tanks argument.
Point #6 general interest item has nothing to do with the topic.
Point 3, Your talking about the Auto-Train, I can surmise due to the # of passengers. How many passengers does that train carry per Dining Car? The whole we ran out of water before the water stop example is a good one for understanding BUT is that a show stopper? Lets say that happens with a soda dispenser on board, will there be an open insurrection or can the passengers wait a few hours until the tank is refilled (it ran out at or after Dinner right? You only waited until midnight). Now on most carriers if that happened once or twice, they would either increase the size of the water tank onboard or move the water stop to be closer. How much water did you have in Sanford when you arrived?
The point is really moot because I have been on trains that have run out of specific types of Soda. Not a huge deal, other flavors and other fluids available.
You also still have the bottled water right? Didn't you admit to using the bottled water to rinse the dishes? Even if you did not have bottled water on board you still have the chilled water in the tanks of the Coaches and Sleeping Cars. Add the water up on the Superliner Auto-Train consist it's a lot of water for the passengers being carried.
So the passengers will survive 4 hours without soda just like you survived 4 hours with out a dishwasher. There is still liquor and water on board just not on the Diner. And I'll bet the lounge car tanks still have water in them so not completely sure you would run out of soda completely just in the diner.
So can you relax a little here? #1 nobody asked you to respond. #2 nobody understands why your getting upset. #3 Don't interpret the entire post is written just for you.
So thats it from me on Coke dispenser talk from now on use Google everyone. Time to change the subject.
To all:
I was hoping I could stay out of this after my last comments, but I guess I have to apologize and make a correction since I misspoke. Amtrak passenger cars don't carry nonpotable water. I was mistaken in my comment about flushing the toilets with nonpotable water. Stanchions for nonpotable water are used for such things as locomotive radiators, although I was never involved in locomotive servicing so I can't give reliable information about that. It is absolutely forbidden to use a stanchion for a nonpotable water station to fill a potable tank, and I'm not sure that the nozzles would fit if you tried. So CMStPnP is correct about point 6.
CMSTPnP:
When you respond directly to what I have said, I take that as a comment directed to me because that's the way communication works in the English language. When you dismiss what I have said, I take that as a dismissal of the notion that my ideas might have some validity. It is not necessarily thin-skinned of me to interpret your words that way. Look at what you have said. Look at the logical comments that have been made in response to yours. Look at the self-important, all-knowing, superior and condescending attitude you display. Don't be so surprised that I find your comments offensive.
Moving the water stop closer means moving the crew change/service stop, which means installing expensive plumbing facilities for one train a day, at a location that Amtrak doesn't even own (CSX property). How much of your personal fortune do you plan to contribute, Mr Trump? Amtrak doesn't have that kind of spare cash lying around.
I did not admit to using bottled water to rinse dishes. I didn't think that much detail was required. If you must know, they were scraped and given a minimal rinse with residual water that still remained in the water lines leading from the tank to the sink, as opposed to the line running from the tank to the dishwasher. That water quickly ran out, but it was enough to get the worst of the residual food off the plates.
You say nobody understands why I get upset with you. Maybe it's because I get awfully tired of being cross examined every time I give an explanation. It's like trying to explain something to a 4-year old. No matter what I say or how thorough I try to make my explanation, the question keeps coming back: "Why?" I try to make my explanations understandable and fairly simple. I never realized you would want me to write a whole book to explain every last detail on every question. You say nobody asked me to respond. Well, I have something to ask of you: If you don't want responses from those who know, why do you ask the questions??????? And why do you always assume that somebody else's solutions must necessarily be inferior to your own, especially when you admit that you have never worked on the equipment?
(Seriously edited & expanded)
This is going to go on and on if I answer your questions. So lets drop it and move on to another topic.
CMStPnPSo thats it from me on Coke dispenser talk from now on use Google everyone. Time to change the subject.
Pepsi?
zugmann CMStPnP Pepsi?
CMStPnP
Dr. Pepper and Moon Pies?
BaltACD zugmann CMStPnP Pepsi? Dr. Pepper and Moon Pies?
DeggestyThe preferred combination was an RC Cola and a Moon Pie where I grew up.
It was during my seven years in Atlanta, even though it's Coke's headquarters: RC and MoonPie [no space].
Feel free to continue the soft drink discussion without me but I am pretty sure your going to need one of these at some point. Borrowed from our own Army:
http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Hurt-Feelings-Report.jpg
Thanks for deigning to give us lesser folk permission!
CMStPnPFeel free to continue the soft drink discussion without me but I am pretty sure you're going to need one of these at some point.
You should tell the MVT people to correct the spelling mistakes; a real Army bureaucrat would know how to spell 'obsolete' or recognize that the correct MI language in that phrase involves some form of the word 'supersede.'
And be careful: schlimm may be involved directly in the issuance and processing of the subsequent DA form 779-1A...
Deggesty BaltACD zugmann CMStPnP Pepsi? The preferred combination was an RC Cola and a Moon Pie where I grew up.
BaltACD zugmann CMStPnP Pepsi?
The preferred combination was an RC Cola and a Moon Pie where I grew up.
Not root beer???
And I am from the Northeast, land of the Boyer Mallo-Cup (perhaps the exemplar of the very last sort of candy that would be found for more than a few hours in the American South, particularly in summer weather) but I always found this "MoonPie" business interesting because on all the packaging I ever saw it's "MOON * PIE" with a fairly substantial gray dot and white space between the halves. Who do you trust, company flacks or your lying eyes?
RMEYou should tell the MVT people to correct the spelling mistakes; a real Army bureaucrat would know how to spell 'obsolete' or recognize that the correct MI language in that phrase involves some form of the word 'supersede.'
I have to say on the Army Form it goes to show you the great humor of Combat Arms in years when they are stressed that they produced something like that as a joke. It has been reproduced so many times I have no idea who created this copy. Not sure if you have seen some of the political pictures which are funny as well. Without breaching partisan sides of the aisle here an awesome one that is politcal is the BOB ON THE FOB comic strip written originally by a SSG with the 101st Airborne while in Iraq based on what he observed there during garrison Army life. Some of the comic strip pictures apply to folks as civilians as they do to folks in uniform and that is why the strip is a classic. BOB = Band of Brothers - reference name for 101st Airborne by Gen Petreus. FOB = Forward Operating Base. A lot of wartime humor in Iraq and Afghanistan unfortunately stayed there but the BOB ON THE FOB comics can be found on Facebook and via Internet searches.
Here is a small subset of the comics:
http://bradsexcellentadventure.blogspot.com/2008/02/bob-on-fob.html
CMStPnPan awesome one that is political is the BOB ON THE FOB comic strip ... Some of the comic strip pictures apply to folks as civilians as they do to folks in uniform and that is why the strip is a classic.
I've been thinking, on and off, that the Good Idea Fairy as described there particularly operates in some railroad ... and sometimes railroad forum ... contexts.
MoonPie & RC The lettering is inconsistent even though the same bakery in Chattanooga has made them since 1917. Link
CMStPnP MidlandMike Why would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on. Your absolutely right, I completely missed the fact the Auto Train was a Western LD train now and has the same level of patronage as other LD trains.........Sorry about that.
MidlandMike Why would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on.
It sounds like you are tryng to rationalize that since the example given was the Auto Train, that everyone has to show examples of every train's diner running out of water. Actually since you are the one suggesting that water capacity is not a problem, it is up to you to demonstrate that this was an isolated case.
CMStPnP MidlandMike Why would ATK put an extra large water tank on the diner if they did not need it all. No need to answer, since ACY has already witnessed that exact thing you doubted ("dishwasher per load basis does not suck the water tank dry") still emptied the tank on a diner he was working on. Excuse me, where did I say they did not need the water tank at all? I think I said expansion of them would not be an issue.
Where did I say, that you said they did not need the water tank at all? Now you are saying expansion of them (I presume you are still talking about the tanks) would not be an issue? Maybe they could put the extra tanks where the soda cans are stored. And you are also posting about extra water refill stops. I think I have made my point that the train would have to carry the same total volume of liquid on board, regardless of which type of soda (fountain or can) they served. I presume you know what you are talking about when you indicate a restaurant cuts cost with fountain drinks vs cans, and I have stayed out of that part if the conversation. However, with your cavalier attitude toward added costs for expanding potable water storage or filling facilities, in addtion to all the other problems other posters have brought up, it is hard to take you seriously that your proposal would save any money, much less space.
RMEThe preferred combination was an RC Cola and a Moon Pie where I grew up. Not root beer???
Don't you remember Brother Dave Gardner?
Paul of CovingtonDon't you remember Brother Dave Gardner?
Ah! you didn't say "ah-ruh-cee" That threw me off...
Actually, I was being sarcastic because an older response on the Trains Magazine forum to perceived dead-horse-beating was to change the general subject to root beer. A bit like the old New Jersey "Hey, how about those Mets?" line [insert favorite locally-politically-acceptable team name as appropriate].
Does Ed Ellis like root beer?
DeggestyDoes Ed Ellis like root beer?
Not sure, but the question is whether he likes it fountain style or out of a bottle.
Does anyone know if the actual soda that should govern a discussion thread like this one, Fan-Taz ("The Drink That Helps You Think"), qualified as a root beer? It certainly was associated with baseball...
RME Deggesty Does Ed Ellis like root beer? Not sure, but the question is whether he likes it fountain style or out of a bottle. Does anyone know if the actual soda that should govern a discussion thread like this one, Fan-Taz ("The Drink That Helps You Think"), qualified as a root beer? It certainly was associated with baseball...
Deggesty Does Ed Ellis like root beer?
But the simple answer was "I don't know" which wouldn't be entertaining. So in the true spirit of Forum posting I threw in some extraneous trivia to disguise the fact.
Re Brother Dave Gardner, ever since I heard that routine (1960 more or less), every time I see a semi double-clutching E-flat tractor trailer truck I think about "I might be slow, but I'm ahead of you."
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