This proposal probably will never see the light of day. There have been several major events that has caused different Commuter RRs and Amtrak to need surge equipment. Examples are among others VRE carrying Metro shutdown passengers, SEPTA now, NJT, LIRR on Fridays, MBTA, Amtrak to saratoga race track, Amtrak Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc, & others. Certainly others can list other examples.
It may be time for a national pool of single level cars and locos to be in various locations to provide surge capability. Certainly SEPTA and VRE could use some right now.
Who would pay to build such ? Well that is the reason nothing will ever be done. Just another stick it to the ptraveling public.
Heh, we still have 1970's passenger equipment in dead lines throughout the country that could be rebuilt to Amtrak standards and that would be cheaper than a new car. It will never happen because Amtrak wants standardization of parts and systems.
There is also the Amtrak deadline of equipment that has been wrecked or otherwise out of service needed major repair that also could be rebuilt or repaired before it would be feasible to start up a new car building line.
Above two, makes me optimistic that at some point we will see either a new corridor or a private company take advantage of one of the above two and either introduce new service or bid against Amtrak on a existing route and take it over.
Also, I think we should have a national standard for passenger cars to produce them economically using one design. I think Amtrak's existing standards has a lot of thought and experience put into it and we should at least adhere to that as much as possible if we are to build new Long Distance Cars.
Private companies also like to continue with an existing line of designed cars instead of switching to an all new one. Case in point: the Rocky Mountaineer going all the way to Europe to get it's former Colorado Railcar Ultra Domes replicated via Stadler railcar contract in Europe. Thats going to cost probably more than if they were built in the United States by the former Colorado Railcar but by the same token the Rocky Mountaineer folks are happy with the existing design and would rather not test a totally new one.
BTW, why we are on the topic, I wonder who owns the old Budd car designs and the old Superliner Car Designs? If we ever get a major LD railcar building program underway. I for one would vote to restart Superliner production and perhaps this maybe dreamland but would it kill Amtrak to buy 15-20 new Vista Domes based on the Budd design for the East?
Although Amtrak has days when it sells out, at least on some routes and for some classes of travel, its average load factor does not suggest it is seriously capacity constrained.
In 2015 the average system load factor was 51.3 per cent, which was down 9/10s of one per cent from 2014 and a full per cent from 2011.
The average load factor on the long distance trains in 2015 averaged 58.7 per cent. It too was down slightly from 2014, which was 59.1. It was down from 62.8 per cent in 2011.
The average system load factors, as well as the average load factors for each of Amtrak's segments, has remained fairly steady over the last five years.
Whether the fully allocated marginal cost of "surge" equipment would be covered by the incremental marginal ticket revenues is the important financial question. Otherwise, having equipment standby for marginal use that does not cover the cost - expenses - would not be a good business decision.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
JPS1Although Amtrak has days when it sells out, at least on some routes and for some classes of travel, its average load factor does not suggest it is seriously capacity constrained.
How do they measure capacity in a Sleeper? All beds occupied OR just the compartment rented? It would be interesting to find out because it seems to me that Amtrak loses the rail fare for each empty bed in a sleeping car as they have no surcharge for single occupancy in a multi-occupancy compartment.
I don’t know how Amtrak measures the capacity of its sleepers. If they tell the public, I don’t know where to find the information.
When I have calculated the load factor for a sleeper, I have used the number of beds as the base line. Also, I have used the number of rooms and assumed that the occupancy rate was 1.5 persons per room. I don’t have any data to justify the average occupancy rate per room - 1.5 - assumption. It is a WAG. If the attendant occupies one of the rooms, as is the case on the Sunset Limited, I reduced the number of beds by two or the number of rooms by one.
Either way, except for a small number of days each year, at least based on the loads for the trains that I have looked at, which is not a scientific survey, Amtrak does not appear to be capacity constrained.
The only justification for surge equipment is that the marginal revenues cover the marginal costs and expenses is the main point.
A search of fares from El Paso to Tucson for mid-September shows that the accommodation charge for an Economy Room is $47.55 higher for two people than for one. This is for daytime occupancy in an Economy Room.
I don’t do overnight on Amtrak’s trains. Leaving on a Jet Plane became my theme song shortly after an overnight train trip from New York to Florida. It is much more relaxing to fly to my destination and spend the night in a hotel if necessary. Moreover, my wife make it crystal clear. A train from New York to Washington was OK. Overnight? No way!
OK, I was just curious anyways how detailed the stats were. Amtrak is notorious for not being transparent in Passenger Train accounting. Some people say that is the industry but I have a hard time believing that FEC will operate that way with All Aboard Florida (Brightline) or that Rocky Mountaineer operates that way.
Personal opinion, but this is the way I'd look at occupancy rates...just whether or not the room is booked, not how many people it can hold and how many are in it. Simple example, you have a 10 bedroom car(not a real example, just a simple one), but each room can hold say 3 people, which would mean a capacity of 30, but if you have 1 person in each room, then the car is 100% booked, full capacity. In other words, you can't double, triple or quadruple up single people, therefore you have to take into account just whether the room is booked or not, not how many occupy the space vs how many it can hold.
Though it's been ages since I took the train anywhere(time constraints), I'd much prefer to travel via train(even overnight) than fly, but then again, I can sleep sitting up in an airport chair, so sleeping is not an issue.
When this poster started thread was looking for coach equipment not all the other equipment. IMHO it is a matter of have the most capacity for the buck. There are just too many times when one agency or another needs surge equipment because of weather, equipment malfunction ( SEPTA ), or what ever.
We are also finding out that the various Heritage fleets are nearing the end of their life for regular service
Did not look for very high density cars but single level cars.
So have changed title to meet purpose of thread
blue streak 1When this poster started thread was looking for coach equipment not all the other equipment. IMHO it is a matter of have the most capacity for the buck. There are just too many times when one agency or another needs surge equipment because of weather, equipment malfunction ( SEPTA ), or what ever.
Given all that, Amtrak ordered new baggage cars and diners, no coaches. Brilliant!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnP Also, I think we should have a national standard for passenger cars to produce them economically using one design. I think Amtrak's existing standards has a lot of thought and experience put into it and we should at least adhere to that as much as possible if we are to build new Long Distance Cars. Private companies also like to continue with an existing line of designed cars instead of switching to an all new one. Case in point: the Rocky Mountaineer going all the way to Europe to get it's former Colorado Railcar Ultra Domes replicated via Stadler railcar contract in Europe. Thats going to cost probably more than if they were built in the United States by the former Colorado Railcar but by the same token the Rocky Mountaineer folks are happy with the existing design and would rather not test a totally new one. BTW, why we are on the topic, I wonder who owns the old Budd car designs and the old Superliner Car Designs? If we ever get a major LD railcar building program underway. I for one would vote to restart Superliner production and perhaps this maybe dreamland but would it kill Amtrak to buy 15-20 new Vista Domes based on the Budd design for the East?
That standardized design you argue for is exactly what was the goal of the corridor car design committee. That was a concept first put forward by Angel Trains, by its North American representative. Like the PCC all the potential buyers were represented on the committee. Too bad NS has screwed it up so bad.
I guess you missed the news that Statler is opening a temporary manufacturing facility in Salt Lake while it looks for a permanent locationin the US.
All the Budd patents are now owned by Bombardier.
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schlimm Given all that, Amtrak ordered new baggage cars and diners, no coaches. Brilliant!
Priorities. If you lack sufficient coaches and non-revenue cars, which do uou get first? Or at least at the same time, some of each? It's not rocket science, but apparently too hard for Amtrak.
Once again the need for surge coaches becomes evident. The Delta computer meltdown has stranded many passengers. An example the Crescent ATL <> WAS for yesterday and today has alternated between full and one or two vacancies.
Granted a surge fleet would not even make a dent in stranded persons but the revenue bump for Amtrak would be significant.
blue streak 1 Once again the need for surge coaches becomes evident. The Delta computer meltdown has stranded many passengers. An example the Crescent ATL <> WAS for yesterday and today has alternated between full and one or two vacancies. Granted a surge fleet would not even make a dent in stranded persons but the revenue bump for Amtrak would be significant.
Did Amtrak find even ONE extra coach for the Crescent either day?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd blue streak 1 Once again the need for surge coaches becomes evident. The Delta computer meltdown has stranded many passengers. An example the Crescent ATL <> WAS for yesterday and today has alternated between full and one or two vacancies. Granted a surge fleet would not even make a dent in stranded persons but the revenue bump for Amtrak would be significant. Did Amtrak find even ONE extra coach for the Crescent either day?
Just checked. Nope. P42
P42
baggage
Business class coach
sleeper
diner
lounge
coach
The old railroads always had plenty of spare equipment. Don't know whether they kept it around out of a sense of responsibility or opportunity or because it didn't even have scrap value. In any case, they always had extra capacity for those holidays and college vacations.
Amtrak hasn't been around for as long as the old railroads, but has been on the scene for 45 years, which is long enough to have accumulated some of that spare capacity. If they haven't done so, for whatever reason, including intimidation by Congress -- shame on them.
Olt,amm: Thanks It is just amazing. Of course all their spare equipment may be tied up at SEPTA ?
If the corridor cars to be builtby Nippon Sharyo ever actually see the light of day, there will be a significant number of Horizon coaches displaced from the Midwest. They could be used for commuter or additional NEC capacity as is, or could be converted to long distance use with a significant upgrade in interior amenities.
This photo was taken in the last few months at Amtrak Beech Grove facility. Does not look like they have a lot of extra new equipment to work on and get back into service.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/579977/
blue streak 1 Olt,amm: Thanks It is just amazing. Of course all their spare equipment may be tied up at SEPTA ?
I can't imagine Amtrak leasing Amfleet II cars to SEPTA....
CMStPnPThis photo was taken in the last few months at Amtrak Beech Grove facility. Does not look like they have a lot of extra new equipment to work on and get back into service. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/579977/
While there doesn't appear to be a wealth of passenger equipment awaiting repair in that picture - there are at least 25 engines pictured. That is a lot of power to have out of service at one location.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD CMStPnP This photo was taken in the last few months at Amtrak Beech Grove facility. Does not look like they have a lot of extra new equipment to work on and get back into service. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/579977/ While there doesn't appear to be a wealth of passenger equipment awaiting repair in that picture - there are at least 25 engines pictured. That is a lot of power to have out of service at one location.
CMStPnP This photo was taken in the last few months at Amtrak Beech Grove facility. Does not look like they have a lot of extra new equipment to work on and get back into service. http://www.railpictures.net/photo/579977/
Different locomotives appear to be "weathered" (I know, I know, a model railroad term) in specific but different ways.
Does this speak to different failure modes of (cough, General Electric, cough) Diesel locomotives?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
There are only a few P42DCs that have been killed by GE turbo/engine fires, and two are plainly visible. Many of the rest are wrecked, primarily in collisions with trucks, as the Phase II heritage unit was. The earlier Phase IV units are the P40DCs, which were built for a stillborn service expansion, saw service for about 5 years until the P42DCs arrived, and have sat dead in Beech Grove since. Some have been rebuilt, but it seems odd not to rebuild the others since the P42DC fleet has had dismal reliability lately, and there has been quite a bit of wreck attrition. Money problems, as usual...
There's also speculation about a 150-unit SC-44 order that may or may not happen in a couple of years.
NorthWestThere are only a few P42DCs that have been killed by GE turbo/engine fires, and two are plainly visible. Many of the rest are wrecked, primarily in collisions with trucks, as the Phase II heritage unit was. The earlier Phase IV units are the P40DCs, which were built for a stillborn service expansion, saw service for about 5 years until the P42DCs arrived, and have sat dead in Beech Grove since. Some have been rebuilt, but it seems odd not to rebuild the others since the P42DC fleet has had dismal reliability lately, and there has been quite a bit of wreck attrition. Money problems, as usual...
Shhh. Don't let information like that get in the way of the good 'ol "GE sucks!" trope.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
The picture of Beech Grove shows, equipment that is scheduled for repairs or will be repaired in the near future. Amtrak stores locomotives in this area.
Long term storage is not visible in this photo as it is in the far background behind the shop buildings. There is not a lot of equipment there. Perhaps 30-35 cars, some are retired baggage cars, some wreck damaged.
This poster is bring the following over from AAF thread with some editing. The lease of the Talgos by Lossan may be just one indication of the need for quite a few spare coaches ?. As far as can recall the following agencies are short from just a few to many hundreds.
Amtrak, MBTA, Mass DOT, Conn DOT, NJT, SEPTA ( their fault scrapping the Silverliner -2s too soon, MARC & VRE which need more space for daytime car storage, CHI, LAX - LOSSAN, CalTrain, Capital corridor ( using old NJT Comet cars already ).
Now if Congress would appropriate enough funds to overhaul Amtak out of service cars that can be feasibly overhauled that might help but not for at least a year.
Partial quote
As much as this poster hates it maybe it is time for Amtrak lease the El Capitan cars upgrade them ( some one tell us if any of the retired Heritage car parts could be used ) and assign them to just one route. As enough ElCapitan cars are refurbished assign them to one train set with a couple spares along the route and at end points. The problem of the ElCapitan cars only coach, lounge, & diner does not solve sleeper availability but maybe Amtrak could start with rebuilding Superliner sleepers ? One thought would be Auto Train but that might have unintended consequences ? Another route would be the Southwest chief ? What ever route the El CAP cars would not solve the shortage of Superliner sleepers ?
UNQUOTE"
blue streak 1 This poster is bring the following over from AAF thread with some editing. The lease of the Talgos by Lossan may be just one indication of the need for quite a few spare coaches ?. As far as can recall the following agencies are short from just a few to many hundreds. Amtrak, MBTA, Mass DOT, Conn DOT, NJT, SEPTA ( their fault scrapping the Silverliner -2s too soon, MARC & VRE which need more space for daytime car storage, CHI, LAX - LOSSAN, CalTrain, Capital corridor ( using old NJT Comet cars already ).
I think the Talgo lease is primarily a reflection of the knock on effect of the NS Corridor Car fiasco. Cars from this build were expected to be in service at this time. There is no sign of when even a sample car will be available ( something weird going on here). Went by the plant the other day, there were no car shells present.
As to the reported shortage of cars on the T, I spent some time in Boston last month, stayed right next to 2 T lines (and I do mean right next to), one South Station line and one North Station line. I was able to see into the cars very well and there were lots of empty seats even during the rush. If there is overcrowding on other routes I can't believe cars can't be redeployed from these.
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