Everybody is down to 79MPH since ATS came out (Passenger & Freight)...and rarely were freight trains allowed above 60 anymore. The difference was in design speed where passenger trains were allowed the 3 inch (and at one point 3.50 inch) unbalance in the speed calculations. Freight trains were stuck with the 1.75 inch unbalance.
The limits of 90 MPH running between Ellinor and La Junta on the La Junta Sub has been shrinking rapidly. There is no more 90 MPH Running between Syracuse and La Junta, it's all 79 MPH with freight dropped to 55. About 55 miles of that 102 miles used to be 90 per. Not anymore. Basically, there is no longer any 90MPH track left in CO (The ATS inductors between La Junta and Trinidad were supposed to be removed, but it appears some of the inductors are still out there where EMD and GE occasionally test under absolute block protection....There's nothing out there except the Army tank range at Simpson/Pinion Canyon.)
Until the tonnage on that line comes up (most of it siphoned off by the ex-BN/CB&Q lines to the north), there's no need to maintain to a higher standard.
AMTK55 Some people have got to have some timetables.
Some people have got to have some timetables.
I beg to differ. Not just in New Mexico and the BNSF Needles Sub, but also in Northern Missouri, Amtrak 3&4 can go 90. Intermodal, Autoracks, TOFC and some X trains go a max of 79 out there I believe. I've been within 15ft of a Z train blasting by a platform at 70-79. Hoooooly crap. Really Scary. ATSF went a whole lot faster back in the day. I remember hearing about speeds around 100mph, then brought it down to 90 because the maintenance costs were just too much to keep up with. Some people have got to have some timetables.
crew-change/refuelling points only
erikem My recollection of the Trains coverage of the Super C was that the train made time without using streamliner speeds by avoiding streamliner stops. - Erik
My recollection of the Trains coverage of the Super C was that the train made time without using streamliner speeds by avoiding streamliner stops.
- Erik
I read that as well, that West of Kansas City almost all the way to CA most everything was either a flagstop or skipped. I believe they stopped at the larger cities like Albequerque though.
oltmanndI think the Super C was allowed ATSF passenger speeds.
schlimm True. My error, but externally the systems look similar. "Automatic Train Control (ATC) is used between Chicago Passenger Terminal (CPT) and Council Bluffs. It was installed around 1926, and consists of a two-aspect color indication in the locomotive cab (green or "clear" and red-over-yellow or "restrictive"). Except at interlockings and their approaches, there are no wayside signals along this route [not true today]. ATC also enforces speed control, such that if a locomotive engineer fails to control the speed of the train according to cab signal indications, the ATC will make a penalty brake application and stop the train. The signal current passing through the rails when a clear block exists ahead of a train is detected by pick-up coils located underneath the front pilot, behind the plow or breastplate. " "Automatic Train Stop (ATS) is used between CPT and both Harvard and Kenosha, Wis. (on the Northwest and North suburban lines, respectively). ATS does not feature any cab signal indicator, with engineers relying on wayside signals. ATS also uses electrical inductors, one located to the right of the track at each signal location and another mounted to the right-front axle journal box on equipped locomotives. When the locomotive inductor passes over the trackside inductor, power is passed magnetically to the locomotive inductor if the signal indication is clear. If the signal is other-than clear, no power passes to the locomotive inductor, and the engineer must acknowledge the signal or a penalty stop will be made. ATS does not enforce any speed limits." [from UtahRails.net]
True. My error, but externally the systems look similar.
"Automatic Train Control (ATC) is used between Chicago Passenger Terminal (CPT) and Council Bluffs. It was installed around 1926, and consists of a two-aspect color indication in the locomotive cab (green or "clear" and red-over-yellow or "restrictive"). Except at interlockings and their approaches, there are no wayside signals along this route [not true today]. ATC also enforces speed control, such that if a locomotive engineer fails to control the speed of the train according to cab signal indications, the ATC will make a penalty brake application and stop the train. The signal current passing through the rails when a clear block exists ahead of a train is detected by pick-up coils located underneath the front pilot, behind the plow or breastplate. "
"Automatic Train Stop (ATS) is used between CPT and both Harvard and Kenosha, Wis. (on the Northwest and North suburban lines, respectively). ATS does not feature any cab signal indicator, with engineers relying on wayside signals. ATS also uses electrical inductors, one located to the right of the track at each signal location and another mounted to the right-front axle journal box on equipped locomotives. When the locomotive inductor passes over the trackside inductor, power is passed magnetically to the locomotive inductor if the signal indication is clear. If the signal is other-than clear, no power passes to the locomotive inductor, and the engineer must acknowledge the signal or a penalty stop will be made. ATS does not enforce any speed limits." [from UtahRails.net]
ATS shoe is on outside of truck frame mounted to journal. Cab signal receiver bars (antennae) are mounted over the rails behind the end sheet. Cab signal is continuous. ATS is intermittant.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Overmod mudchickenRegardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves. What was the expert consensus on what was making them come off? General decay of the insulated attachment points? Spring sag bringing the truck frame down *just* enough that the effective inductor air gap goes to zero? Educated guesses backed by 'forensic evidence' welcome...
mudchickenRegardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves.
What was the expert consensus on what was making them come off? General decay of the insulated attachment points? Spring sag bringing the truck frame down *just* enough that the effective inductor air gap goes to zero?
Educated guesses backed by 'forensic evidence' welcome...
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
There is no ATS on the West Line, only ATC, a different system. UP (formerly C&NW) has ATS only on the Northwest Line (Harvard Sub.) and North Line (Kenosha Sub.).
ATS still seems to be working just fine, probably because it is maintained, on the ex-CNW UP west line.
A note I failed to note yesterday concerning TT direction, connected with the Boise City Sub: "Rule 5.11: Between La Junta and Animas Jct. only, timetable directions are different from geographic directions. Southbound trains travel northeast and Northbound trains travel southwest." Perhaps this note is necessary so conductors who have not served as fireman will not be confused to as which direction they are going?
Johnny
Regardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves.
Can't speak about all ATS inductors down south, but a good number are missing between Simpson/ Earl and Trinidad.
Intermittent Inductive Automatic Train Stop equipment consisted of an inductor "shoe" mounted outside the RH running rail and a two-coil electromagnet receiver mounted on the truck of the locomotive. There was no physical contact.
FWIW, the Super C was covered in the Classic Trains Fast Trains Special Edition No. 7 (2009), pp. 28-35. There is also a WikiPedia article on the train. Service lasted eight years, but it never caught on big with shippers, who were unwilling to pay the surcharge for the quicker delivery. The route taken was the southern TRANSCON, and it was the only train permitted to travel up to 90 mph over its entire route wherever possible. Normal maximum was 79 mph. The FP45s and GE U28CGs were specially modified to accommodate that increased higher speed.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
mudchicken ATS has largely been deactivated on both ATSF northern & southern transcons. The problem, more than anything else was the poor condition of the Amtrak truck mounted ATS shoes. Starting in 1998, the ATS shoes were removed by ATSF/BNSF signal forces as they came due.. (Got called out multiple times to patrol track looking for baby Amthrax' lost shoes between Dodge City and La Junta - most fell off in Kansas between Lakin and Syracuse.) 79 MPH Pass and 70 Freight. Long stretches of 132# jointed are now 60 because you can't hold surface anymore because of end batter and bad joint memory....The equipment used to maintain that stuff wore out and wasn't replaced. You can't expect a limited number of welders to build up/maintain that many joints.
ATS has largely been deactivated on both ATSF northern & southern transcons. The problem, more than anything else was the poor condition of the Amtrak truck mounted ATS shoes. Starting in 1998, the ATS shoes were removed by ATSF/BNSF signal forces as they came due..
(Got called out multiple times to patrol track looking for baby Amthrax' lost shoes between Dodge City and La Junta - most fell off in Kansas between Lakin and Syracuse.)
79 MPH Pass and 70 Freight. Long stretches of 132# jointed are now 60 because you can't hold surface anymore because of end batter and bad joint memory....The equipment used to maintain that stuff wore out and wasn't replaced. You can't expect a limited number of welders to build up/maintain that many joints.
No ATC from Elinor to La Junta, with ATC from La Junta to Las Vegas; ABS or CTS all the way, with Track Warrant Control in ABS territory, except within yard limits in ABS territory; all 79-70 track is east of Hutchinson.
Of interest: Direction is westward from Ellinor to Las Animas Jct., northward from Las Animas Jct. (comes up from Amarillo) to La Junta (continues to Pueblo and Denver), and westward from La Junta on.
Were the ATS shoes on Amtrak engines ancient?
I was back in Illinois about a year and a half ago and was surprised (shocked, actually) to see a contractor doing a thermite weld on the old ATSF Illinois Division through my hometown. The Santa Fe welder for that section (Johnny Focci, he was from my hometown too) must have retired ten years ago but I still can't believe that BNSF would let one of those guys work on their rail (where's the accountability?). I guess things change.
ATSF often ran the Super-C with passenger F3s and F7s with 56:21 gears - 102 MPH. The FP45s were delivered with 56:21 gears but probably got regeared down to 59:18 (~83) to match ATSF's other power.
By contrast SP's passenger FP7s and SDP45s in the same era had 60:17 gears (~77MPH).
Looks like the likely power for the train (FP45s) were geared for 80 mph service - so that may have been the limiting factor.
Overmod One of us is going to have to dig out the old Trains Mag article... Wasn't the article with the timings and detailed operating information in Classic Trains? Might even have been one of the 'special' issues. If someone will give me a year and month, I'll look up the Trains reference in my collection. Putting "Super C" in the search field resulted in all kinds of extraneous references... interesting, mind you, but not germane to finding out more about speeds involved... I was paralyzed at the thought of truck skew at 90 mph then. Truth to tell, I still am.
One of us is going to have to dig out the old Trains Mag article...
Wasn't the article with the timings and detailed operating information in Classic Trains? Might even have been one of the 'special' issues.
If someone will give me a year and month, I'll look up the Trains reference in my collection. Putting "Super C" in the search field resulted in all kinds of extraneous references... interesting, mind you, but not germane to finding out more about speeds involved...
I was paralyzed at the thought of truck skew at 90 mph then. Truth to tell, I still am.
Long cars and jointed rail pretty much kill any hunting that might want to get going at those speeds. I wonder how much welded rail ATSF had back in the days of the Super C.
rcdryeCSX's ex-NYC signal system from Cleveland to Hoffmans (Albany) can be used at speeds above 80 but higher speeds aren't authorized.
This hasn't been true for decades. NYC train stop didn't even make it to the end of PC. It's just straight-up 251 territory. No train stop, no cab signal, nada. 79 mph is all there is.
The recently posted Trains map
http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/Map%20of%20the%20Month/Fastest%20rail%20lines%20in%20America.pdf
shows a couple of long segments on the Transcon where 90 MPH speeds are "authorized but not scheduled". Parts of the segments are current-of-traffic ABS installations, where conversion to bidirectional CTC may change the status of ATS. The ATS design is ancient from an electronic standpoint, but still required on Metrolink lines in the LA basin.
CSX's ex-NYC signal system from Cleveland to Hoffmans (Albany) can be used at speeds above 80 but higher speeds aren't authorized. New York State is working to get some 90+ segments accepted by CSX, while looking at building a couple of 110MPH passenger-only segments either on the CSX ROW or on former West Shore ROW. East of Hoffmans Amtrak has taken over signal work and is replacing just about everything (at federal and New York's expense) before allowing 110MPH speeds.
CSSHEGEWISCH I believe that the "Super C" was allowed 70 MPH since it was intermodal equipment which was all roller-bearing-equipped. It also stopped only for crew changes (17 times) and used the southern main line to avoid Raton Pass. Chicago-Los Angeles in 40 hours or less was pretty much limited to the "Super Chief-El Capitan" and used to serve as a selling point for those trains. I don't think that any other Santa Fe trains had the same schedule.
I believe that the "Super C" was allowed 70 MPH since it was intermodal equipment which was all roller-bearing-equipped. It also stopped only for crew changes (17 times) and used the southern main line to avoid Raton Pass.
Chicago-Los Angeles in 40 hours or less was pretty much limited to the "Super Chief-El Capitan" and used to serve as a selling point for those trains. I don't think that any other Santa Fe trains had the same schedule.
I think the Super C was allowed ATSF passenger speeds. It ran in the day before there were FRA specific for train speed by track class.
The 89 foot flat cars were pretty stable at those speeds.
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