What is the maximum allowable speed for any train, passenger or freight, on the BNSF Transcon?
Currently, the Southwest Chief traverses most of the BNSF Transcon, the balance along the old Transcon segment between Newton, KS, and Dalies, NM. According to a news report, "BNSF doesn't want to upgrade sections of the [old Transcon] track used by its slower-moving freight trains to meet the higher speed requirements for Amtrak's passenger trains."
My understanding is that the Transcon, old and new, has been built or re-built for a 79 mph maximum. Once long ago, I do know speeds in excess of 100 mph were permissible, as I rode the El Cap for years
.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
As of a few years ago, there were still some stretches of 90 mph in NM (west of Belen) and AZ. You used to be able to download BNSF timetables at their web site.
Back in the early 90s, Amtrak tested their RoadRailers on the NEC at 100 mph as part of being allowed to operate them at 90 mph on the SW Ltd.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Class 4 track is 79 or 80 mph passenger maximum, and Class 3 is 60 maximum-- didn't I read that some of the SFe main via La Junta is now Class 3?
For freights to be allowed 70 mph the track has to be Class 5, which is 90 passenger if the ATS is still there. Dunno how much of it is.
My rough guess would be 75 for Freight in Texas. You tube videos where the driver claims the BNSF freight is doing 80..........have my doubts on that but I can believe 75 with the speed limit being 70 and the locomotive speedometer being off............or the locomotive engineer claiming that.
timz For freights to be allowed 70 mph the track has to be Class 5, which is 90 passenger if the ATS is still there. Dunno how much of it is.
I believe it's still 90 Mph (AT&SF operated trains at 100 for a while, but scaled back to 90 due to maintenance costs, just like ACL tjat also operetd some of it's Champions at the same s+peed between 1955 & 1957). Porviding track is kept to class 4 standards for passenger trains (and class 5 for Intermodals) and ATS is in place.
Just because of that, one doubt assaulted my mind : the NS trackage between Pittsburg and Cleveland is equipped witha cab signal system (The ETTs I have, refer it to be Rule 191/CSS), but maxium speed is only 79 Mph, can that limitation be related to the standard of track maintenance ?
Mario_vthe NS trackage between Pittsburg and Cleveland is equipped witha cab signal system (The ETTs I have, refer it to be Rule 191/CSS), but maxium speed is only 79 Mph, can that limitation be related to the standard of track maintenance ?
Yes. It's class 4 track: 60 frt, 80 pass. It could be made 80 mph, but I guess nobody thought about it, cared or bothered to change the ETT after the cab signal was installed several years ago. I suppose if Amtrak bugged NS about it, NS would make the change.
This reminds me of the Southern's practice. In all of the ETTs that I have which showed ATS, the maximum speed limit for passenger trains on any line with ATS was79 mph, so when Southern petitioned to discontinue ATS, it made no difference at all as to the speed limits. Perhaps the railroad did not feel it was worth it to maintain the track so as to allow higher speeds (not that the speed limit was always observed by engineers)?
Johnny
I believe that the "Super C" was allowed 70 MPH since it was intermodal equipment which was all roller-bearing-equipped. It also stopped only for crew changes (17 times) and used the southern main line to avoid Raton Pass.
Chicago-Los Angeles in 40 hours or less was pretty much limited to the "Super Chief-El Capitan" and used to serve as a selling point for those trains. I don't think that any other Santa Fe trains had the same schedule.
CSSHEGEWISCH I believe that the "Super C" was allowed 70 MPH since it was intermodal equipment which was all roller-bearing-equipped. It also stopped only for crew changes (17 times) and used the southern main line to avoid Raton Pass. Chicago-Los Angeles in 40 hours or less was pretty much limited to the "Super Chief-El Capitan" and used to serve as a selling point for those trains. I don't think that any other Santa Fe trains had the same schedule.
I think the Super C was allowed ATSF passenger speeds. It ran in the day before there were FRA specific for train speed by track class.
The 89 foot flat cars were pretty stable at those speeds.
One of us is going to have to dig out the old Trains Mag article...
Wasn't the article with the timings and detailed operating information in Classic Trains? Might even have been one of the 'special' issues.
If someone will give me a year and month, I'll look up the Trains reference in my collection. Putting "Super C" in the search field resulted in all kinds of extraneous references... interesting, mind you, but not germane to finding out more about speeds involved...
I was paralyzed at the thought of truck skew at 90 mph then. Truth to tell, I still am.
The recently posted Trains map
http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/Map%20of%20the%20Month/Fastest%20rail%20lines%20in%20America.pdf
shows a couple of long segments on the Transcon where 90 MPH speeds are "authorized but not scheduled". Parts of the segments are current-of-traffic ABS installations, where conversion to bidirectional CTC may change the status of ATS. The ATS design is ancient from an electronic standpoint, but still required on Metrolink lines in the LA basin.
CSX's ex-NYC signal system from Cleveland to Hoffmans (Albany) can be used at speeds above 80 but higher speeds aren't authorized. New York State is working to get some 90+ segments accepted by CSX, while looking at building a couple of 110MPH passenger-only segments either on the CSX ROW or on former West Shore ROW. East of Hoffmans Amtrak has taken over signal work and is replacing just about everything (at federal and New York's expense) before allowing 110MPH speeds.
rcdryeCSX's ex-NYC signal system from Cleveland to Hoffmans (Albany) can be used at speeds above 80 but higher speeds aren't authorized.
This hasn't been true for decades. NYC train stop didn't even make it to the end of PC. It's just straight-up 251 territory. No train stop, no cab signal, nada. 79 mph is all there is.
Overmod One of us is going to have to dig out the old Trains Mag article... Wasn't the article with the timings and detailed operating information in Classic Trains? Might even have been one of the 'special' issues. If someone will give me a year and month, I'll look up the Trains reference in my collection. Putting "Super C" in the search field resulted in all kinds of extraneous references... interesting, mind you, but not germane to finding out more about speeds involved... I was paralyzed at the thought of truck skew at 90 mph then. Truth to tell, I still am.
Long cars and jointed rail pretty much kill any hunting that might want to get going at those speeds. I wonder how much welded rail ATSF had back in the days of the Super C.
Looks like the likely power for the train (FP45s) were geared for 80 mph service - so that may have been the limiting factor.
ATSF often ran the Super-C with passenger F3s and F7s with 56:21 gears - 102 MPH. The FP45s were delivered with 56:21 gears but probably got regeared down to 59:18 (~83) to match ATSF's other power.
By contrast SP's passenger FP7s and SDP45s in the same era had 60:17 gears (~77MPH).
ATS has largely been deactivated on both ATSF northern & southern transcons. The problem, more than anything else was the poor condition of the Amtrak truck mounted ATS shoes. Starting in 1998, the ATS shoes were removed by ATSF/BNSF signal forces as they came due..
(Got called out multiple times to patrol track looking for baby Amthrax' lost shoes between Dodge City and La Junta - most fell off in Kansas between Lakin and Syracuse.)
79 MPH Pass and 70 Freight. Long stretches of 132# jointed are now 60 because you can't hold surface anymore because of end batter and bad joint memory....The equipment used to maintain that stuff wore out and wasn't replaced. You can't expect a limited number of welders to build up/maintain that many joints.
mudchicken ATS has largely been deactivated on both ATSF northern & southern transcons. The problem, more than anything else was the poor condition of the Amtrak truck mounted ATS shoes. Starting in 1998, the ATS shoes were removed by ATSF/BNSF signal forces as they came due.. (Got called out multiple times to patrol track looking for baby Amthrax' lost shoes between Dodge City and La Junta - most fell off in Kansas between Lakin and Syracuse.) 79 MPH Pass and 70 Freight. Long stretches of 132# jointed are now 60 because you can't hold surface anymore because of end batter and bad joint memory....The equipment used to maintain that stuff wore out and wasn't replaced. You can't expect a limited number of welders to build up/maintain that many joints.
I was back in Illinois about a year and a half ago and was surprised (shocked, actually) to see a contractor doing a thermite weld on the old ATSF Illinois Division through my hometown. The Santa Fe welder for that section (Johnny Focci, he was from my hometown too) must have retired ten years ago but I still can't believe that BNSF would let one of those guys work on their rail (where's the accountability?). I guess things change.
No ATC from Elinor to La Junta, with ATC from La Junta to Las Vegas; ABS or CTS all the way, with Track Warrant Control in ABS territory, except within yard limits in ABS territory; all 79-70 track is east of Hutchinson.
Of interest: Direction is westward from Ellinor to Las Animas Jct., northward from Las Animas Jct. (comes up from Amarillo) to La Junta (continues to Pueblo and Denver), and westward from La Junta on.
Were the ATS shoes on Amtrak engines ancient?
FWIW, the Super C was covered in the Classic Trains Fast Trains Special Edition No. 7 (2009), pp. 28-35. There is also a WikiPedia article on the train. Service lasted eight years, but it never caught on big with shippers, who were unwilling to pay the surcharge for the quicker delivery. The route taken was the southern TRANSCON, and it was the only train permitted to travel up to 90 mph over its entire route wherever possible. Normal maximum was 79 mph. The FP45s and GE U28CGs were specially modified to accommodate that increased higher speed.
Intermittent Inductive Automatic Train Stop equipment consisted of an inductor "shoe" mounted outside the RH running rail and a two-coil electromagnet receiver mounted on the truck of the locomotive. There was no physical contact.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Regardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves.
Can't speak about all ATS inductors down south, but a good number are missing between Simpson/ Earl and Trinidad.
mudchickenRegardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves.
What was the expert consensus on what was making them come off? General decay of the insulated attachment points? Spring sag bringing the truck frame down *just* enough that the effective inductor air gap goes to zero?
Educated guesses backed by 'forensic evidence' welcome...
Overmod mudchickenRegardless., the shoes fell off regularly. Usually around crossings and big curves. What was the expert consensus on what was making them come off? General decay of the insulated attachment points? Spring sag bringing the truck frame down *just* enough that the effective inductor air gap goes to zero? Educated guesses backed by 'forensic evidence' welcome...
A note I failed to note yesterday concerning TT direction, connected with the Boise City Sub: "Rule 5.11: Between La Junta and Animas Jct. only, timetable directions are different from geographic directions. Southbound trains travel northeast and Northbound trains travel southwest." Perhaps this note is necessary so conductors who have not served as fireman will not be confused to as which direction they are going?
ATS still seems to be working just fine, probably because it is maintained, on the ex-CNW UP west line.
There is no ATS on the West Line, only ATC, a different system. UP (formerly C&NW) has ATS only on the Northwest Line (Harvard Sub.) and North Line (Kenosha Sub.).
True. My error, but externally the systems look similar.
"Automatic Train Control (ATC) is used between Chicago Passenger Terminal (CPT) and Council Bluffs. It was installed around 1926, and consists of a two-aspect color indication in the locomotive cab (green or "clear" and red-over-yellow or "restrictive"). Except at interlockings and their approaches, there are no wayside signals along this route [not true today]. ATC also enforces speed control, such that if a locomotive engineer fails to control the speed of the train according to cab signal indications, the ATC will make a penalty brake application and stop the train. The signal current passing through the rails when a clear block exists ahead of a train is detected by pick-up coils located underneath the front pilot, behind the plow or breastplate. "
"Automatic Train Stop (ATS) is used between CPT and both Harvard and Kenosha, Wis. (on the Northwest and North suburban lines, respectively). ATS does not feature any cab signal indicator, with engineers relying on wayside signals. ATS also uses electrical inductors, one located to the right of the track at each signal location and another mounted to the right-front axle journal box on equipped locomotives. When the locomotive inductor passes over the trackside inductor, power is passed magnetically to the locomotive inductor if the signal indication is clear. If the signal is other-than clear, no power passes to the locomotive inductor, and the engineer must acknowledge the signal or a penalty stop will be made. ATS does not enforce any speed limits." [from UtahRails.net]
schlimm True. My error, but externally the systems look similar. "Automatic Train Control (ATC) is used between Chicago Passenger Terminal (CPT) and Council Bluffs. It was installed around 1926, and consists of a two-aspect color indication in the locomotive cab (green or "clear" and red-over-yellow or "restrictive"). Except at interlockings and their approaches, there are no wayside signals along this route [not true today]. ATC also enforces speed control, such that if a locomotive engineer fails to control the speed of the train according to cab signal indications, the ATC will make a penalty brake application and stop the train. The signal current passing through the rails when a clear block exists ahead of a train is detected by pick-up coils located underneath the front pilot, behind the plow or breastplate. " "Automatic Train Stop (ATS) is used between CPT and both Harvard and Kenosha, Wis. (on the Northwest and North suburban lines, respectively). ATS does not feature any cab signal indicator, with engineers relying on wayside signals. ATS also uses electrical inductors, one located to the right of the track at each signal location and another mounted to the right-front axle journal box on equipped locomotives. When the locomotive inductor passes over the trackside inductor, power is passed magnetically to the locomotive inductor if the signal indication is clear. If the signal is other-than clear, no power passes to the locomotive inductor, and the engineer must acknowledge the signal or a penalty stop will be made. ATS does not enforce any speed limits." [from UtahRails.net]
ATS shoe is on outside of truck frame mounted to journal. Cab signal receiver bars (antennae) are mounted over the rails behind the end sheet. Cab signal is continuous. ATS is intermittant.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.