http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=429585
That is a great way to do it at maned stations with more than one person on duty ! !
So what prevents adoption of low-cost, low-tech solutions? And more costly, but achievable, all trains, at least in corridors, should have the automatic door systems as described above.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm On the platform, there is a diagram showing where each car on your train will be when it stops so that you can stand in the correct location if you have a reserved seat. This isn't hi-tech, just common sense solutions that could be implemented quickly in our emerging corridors.
On the platform, there is a diagram showing where each car on your train will be when it stops so that you can stand in the correct location if you have a reserved seat. This isn't hi-tech, just common sense solutions that could be implemented quickly in our emerging corridors.
There's at least one station where they have sort of done this.
At Alexandria VA, there's "Location" numbers (http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=429585 has an example) on light poles and support columns. Station personnel tell passengers which location to go to before the train arrives, so that they board the appropriate car for their ticket type. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out very well. Passengers don't pay attention very well, turns out.
I've seen other stations with location signs, but none of the stations I've been through actually used them, except for ALX.
OvermodNo one says you have to turn on the TV, or eat any of the (frankly, probably overpriced) snacks. On the other hand, you might want a fridge for the cream cheese or lox. A-and a small microwave or 'sealed' brewing arrangement for the coffee, or any reheating of your other food you might want.*
As long as I can turn off the TV and not buy the snacks. Right now I sit odwn and put my bagel and coffee on the pull down tray table. That is all that I need. I suppose someone will have to pull back on sthe sling short to shoot me into the passing train.
Couple of differences between European and Amtrak long distance cars that surely help make for faster on/off times:
Each passenger car has 2 doors on each side, not one, so only half as many passengers per door.
Platforms are higher and those portable step stools don't exist in Europe, so no delay before you can get on/off and no need for an attendant at each door.
Car doors are locked during travel and unlock when the train stops. Passengers open the doors themselves.
At departure time, all doors are closed from a central location by the conductor as part of the departure process. No manual closing of doors anymore. Conductor visually makes sure train is clear as it departs and then closes his/her door manually.
All together this makes for a speedier boarding/de-boarding process.
On the rare occasion that a train is longer than the platform, doors on cars not at the platform will not be released and passengers will have to walk to the next train car to get on/off.
John WRI could go with the bungee cord and the relief tube. But must I be burdened with TV and vending machine snacks? I'll bring my own coffee, bagel and a book.
It has to do with economies of scale -- cheaper to provide the modular amenities than to 'pick and choose' (you don't see many automobile rentals without radios and air conditioners to suit people who want a cheaper rental). Would you advocate taking out the minibar in a hotel room every time a guest doesn't plan to use it?
No one says you have to turn on the TV, or eat any of the (frankly, probably overpriced) snacks. On the other hand, you might want a fridge for the cream cheese or lox. A-and a small microwave or 'sealed' brewing arrangement for the coffee, or any reheating of your other food you might want.*
I'd thought of the "TV" more as a screen that could be used for connectivity to wireless devices, or to give access to the Internet, as easily as showing entertainment content -- or programmed promotional material or ads. I am, excruciatingly at times, aware of how boring it can be to wait in an enclosed space with some barker channel running. Would not wish it on a dog. (Run with the canine puns if ya wanna)
There might be liability issues with bring-your-own, so be prepared to sign a longer-than-usual standard waiver. And expect some nanny measures -- little IR detectors looking at the food in the microwave to keep its temperature safe, for example. Or coffee access lids little removed from the adult-proof covers on medicine bottles. All in the name of SAFETY -- Job One on the railroads, remember? We do our part.
* Yes, that is a Pynchon reference.
OvermodPassenger goes in a 'boarding module' which is properly constructed -- sorta like the way the F111 and B-70 cockpits were supposed to be. Can have all the comforts of home -- small snack vending equipment, relief tube, stereo TV with piped-in content... at small marginal cost compared with having to make All Those Station Stops. Long bungee a la those aircraft pick-up systems, and rails and hardpoints that control the path of the module as it goes into the train and then stops.
I could go with the bungee cord and the relief tube. But must I be burdened with TV and vending machine snacks? I'll bring my own coffee, bagel and a book.
Why couldn't we take the lounge car on a long distance train have a portion of the lower level serve as a waiting room / lounge. Everyone departing a train would be in the waiting room on arrival and depart through wide double door like a communter train. Embarking passenger would all board and the train leaves. Tickets, ID etc would be processed after departure. The other half of the lower level would be for checked baggage so the train stops in the middle and its length is not as important. I would have an elevator to get people needing assistance to the upper level. Your handicapped facilities might be in that car or come up with a power scooter/ wheel chair where an attendant could get the disabled to their seat or room.
Nice excursion, but back to 2013 and the original question.
. Why can't Amtrak reduce times at stops? On DB, the stopping times are typically 2-4 minutes to unload and load many passengers, often 50+ at a given station. And it is done smoothly, politely, safely, with few conductors, and the passengers often have several bags. And all the doors open and close, with the infrequent exception of some combined trains whose length exceeds that of the platform.. On the platform, there is a diagram showing where each car on your train will be when it stops so that you can stand in the correct location if you have a reserved seat. This isn't hi-tech, just common sense solutions that could be implemented quickly in our emerging corridors.
John WR I can picture it now, Balt. I'm standing on a platform suspended in the air. Suddenly a couple of padded hooks come out, enclose me and whisk me into the car. They open and I walk to my seat. No fuss, no muss. John
I can picture it now, Balt. I'm standing on a platform suspended in the air. Suddenly a couple of padded hooks come out, enclose me and whisk me into the car. They open and I walk to my seat. No fuss, no muss.
John
I'm SURE I covered this a few weeks ago. Early in April, I believe.
Passenger goes in a 'boarding module' which is properly constructed -- sorta like the way the F111 and B-70 cockpits were supposed to be. Can have all the comforts of home -- small snack vending equipment, relief tube, stereo TV with piped-in content... at small marginal cost compared with having to make All Those Station Stops. Long bungee a la those aircraft pick-up systems, and rails and hardpoints that control the path of the module as it goes into the train and then stops.
Deboarding is accomplished using NASA technology developed for Mars exploration. Inflatable sphere with re-entry seat at the center, in damped gimbals. Ball is armored against whatever it may contact ... it just bounces around until all the energy is spent, then signals the station to send the Google-self-driving Quigley van for pickup [In the interest of fair disclosure, I am waiting for the first surplus-property sale of these to buy one cheap...]
Naturally luggage would go in a separate module -- do you think we are barbarians? -- although it would be Kevlar-tethered to the main module to prevent what I like to call the lost-golf-ball scenario.
I had originally thought that deadheading the modules, particularly the entry modules, would pose a problem. But it is actually an advantage! First, a la Keith Laumer, there is now no need for more expensive infrastructure in the cars -- ordinary pulpwood racks or even spine cars can be easily and quickly adapted to rack these modules, and even automatically connect amenities and power. This in turn may allow passengers to be conveniently handled in freight consists without further ado, or allow joint operations using the FEMA stock (with proper grapples on the modules to engage the shackle mounts) Second, the modules can be adapted to fit inexpensive chassis or powered-wheel mounts, allowing conversion to economical BEVs for quick and effective last-mile service without wasting time to find a rental-car outlet and then discover you don't qualify to rent anything from them. "On Amtrak, It's Guaranteed! <r> " Third ... well, there doesn't need to be a third, the details of this bold new, yet modest proposal speak for themselves far more eloquently than my mere words can.
Anyone who wishes to add details and features may contact me, or comment here. But act quickly as I may present this to the FRA and schedule meetings with key Congressmen ASAP.
BaltACD Refine and redesign the old RPO mail pick-up and discharge systems for passengers. Station dwell to ZERO - pick-up and discharge on the fly.
Refine and redesign the old RPO mail pick-up and discharge systems for passengers.
Station dwell to ZERO - pick-up and discharge on the fly.
See July 1965 TRAINS, "Boarding the Century at Utica".
The platform is suspended in the air?
Detraining is a bit more troublesome; is the passenger put inside a heavy canvas bag that is well padded, and the carry-on baggage is also put inside such a bag which is thrown from the train after the passenger is thrown off?
Johnny
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
oltmannd OvermodI have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door. They act as if this is true. There is a trainman and attendant at the sleeper door and coach door at Gainesville every time. I'm thinking the "California Cars" are the solution to the problem. They have two wide doors per car and can serve a quasi-low level platform w/o needing a train step. Such a platform would not interfere with freight clearances. The problem is what to do about NEC extension stops that don't have high level platforms. You can always open the traps on an Amfleet car, but there is no analog for "California Cars".
OvermodI have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door.
They act as if this is true. There is a trainman and attendant at the sleeper door and coach door at Gainesville every time.
I'm thinking the "California Cars" are the solution to the problem. They have two wide doors per car and can serve a quasi-low level platform w/o needing a train step. Such a platform would not interfere with freight clearances. The problem is what to do about NEC extension stops that don't have high level platforms. You can always open the traps on an Amfleet car, but there is no analog for "California Cars".
The United Aircraft TurboTrain had Alan-Cripe designed entry stairs where you walked down into the train from a high-level platform, stepped up into the train from a conventional platform. Like the Talgo, the TurboTrain had a low floor height.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
DeggestyAs to having all hands on the platform at a station stop, I do not think it to be a wise move to use dining car personnel during meal times, nor to require all attendants to be on the platform in the middle of the night--even the car attendants need sleep, and they will arrange to share cars so that one or more will be able to sleep through a stop.
Agree, although you could probably spare a dining car steward or two for 5 minutes during a meal.
Also, if they rotated car attendants off the train with the operating crew, you wouldn't have any needing sleep (or taking up revenue space). After all, the person at the Hampton Inn desk when you check in, isn't there when you check out. Why should the train be different (other than that's the way Pullman did it.)
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
As to having all hands on the platform at a station stop, I do not think it to be a wise move to use dining car personnel during meal times, nor to require all attendants to be on the platform in the middle of the night--even the car attendants need sleep, and they will arrange to share cars so that one or more will be able to sleep through a stop.
VIA does have sleeping car attendants also working in the diners on the Canadian.
oltmanndI think they could speed things up a bit if they used an "all hands on deck" approach to station stops where more than a handful of people were expected. You have a dozen or more employees on the trains. You should be able to open more than two doors.
I have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door. Plus full ADA compliance or whatever for the opening. That wouldn't apply to doors that 'need' to be kept firmly closed. Might even be one of those nuisance class-action suits over the years. It certainly can't be that access to the train is being tightly restricted to preclude stowaways or farebeaters! Almost as unlikely that it's a Homeland Security access-control thing.
John WR A McIntosh One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling. A train with low level entry cars pulls up to a low level platform. How is a passenger who uses a wheel char to board? Is a bridge plate used? Or is a lift used?
A McIntosh One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling.
One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling.
A train with low level entry cars pulls up to a low level platform. How is a passenger who uses a wheel char to board? Is a bridge plate used? Or is a lift used?
Gainesville GA has a rather long, not-quite-low level platform. The platform is actually below the level of the ties - probably as a result of several iterations of surfacing over the years.
It's long enough to not require two stops, even though sometimes the sleepers are actually past the end of the platform and over the road Xing.
Even with a train step, it's still a mighty long step up to the first tread in the trap. So, all the coach pax have to schlep down the platform and struggle up the one open vestibule. Good (?) thing there is only a handful of passengers boarding or it would take all night.
They recently (in the past couple of years) installed a portable wheelchair lift there. It lives in an outdoor storage box built just for it. I have no idea how it works since it's never been required while I've been there.
I think they could speed things up a bit if they used an "all hands on deck" approach to station stops where more than a handful of people were expected. You have a dozen or more employees on the trains. You should be able to open more than two doors.
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done." - Henry Ford
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
For the western trains, there is a built in "make-up time" between certain stations to allow for getting back on schedule. For example, for the westbound Empire Builder if you study the actual departure time at Red Wing MN and the actual arrival time at the Twin Cities, you will notice the Builder frequently makes up roughly 30 minutes of its schedule between these two points. An instance of this is seen in the Builder of the 5th which left Red Wing 28 minutes late but arrived at MSP 5 minutes early. Should a train arrive early, it must sit until its scheduled departure time.
Although it is not as obvious. I believe the same situation exists for the westbound Zephyr at Omaha and the southbound Eagle at St. Louis. I'm sure if one took the time to look other such situation abound.
Obviously Amtrak does this to allow for dispatching problems encountered by its host railroads. I'd suggest that the time lost to this problem is at least as great as that caused by double stops.
CMStPnP C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
They already do this on the trains I've been on.
John, My impression from watching the lift as it was moved to the door of the sleeper and used to raise my wife as she sat in her chair and then I moved to room H, and from waching the ramp be put into place and I moved her up and on in to our room is that it is much faster to to use to the ramp. The ramp does take two people to set it into place and to store it; someone from the station brought the lift out, operated it, and took it back to the station.
As to moving all passengers to one car (or two cars) for unloading, it may work if no passenger has difficulty in going up and down the stairs and/or in walking from one car to another. However, if a passenger is unable to walk at all, or has difficulty in walking, the is an unworkable plan. I speak from experience with traveling with my wife, even when she could still walk; on the last trip we took and had rooms on the upper level, she had difficulty in passing the stairways since there was a space which had nothing for her to hold to.
CMStPnPUse the German approach, 2 minute stops at intermediate stations for Passenger Trains, you can't get on board in that time frame you should be left standing on the platform as the train pulls away.
Of course that method, if in fact it is done in Germany, guarantees that no one with a mobility impairment can ride a train.
Johnny,
Since you have seen for yourself both ramps and lifts used do you have any other observations about the merits of one or the other?
My personal perspective is that in getting on or off of any kind of transportation the first concern is safety. We need to take the time it takes for safety of all passengers.
Bonas On long distance trains outside of the NE Corridor it can take as long as 20 min to load a train. In Eleria OH the train makes two platform stops one for coach and the other for sleepers. Its a hurry up and wait on the Lake Shore and Capital Limited. If we want to speed up train service you need to open all the doors and have high leval platforms and let the passengers seat themselves commuter style. You also need wider doors as well as its a real pain to get luggage around those narrow doors
On long distance trains outside of the NE Corridor it can take as long as 20 min to load a train. In Eleria OH the train makes two platform stops one for coach and the other for sleepers. Its a hurry up and wait on the Lake Shore and Capital Limited. If we want to speed up train service you need to open all the doors and have high leval platforms and let the passengers seat themselves commuter style. You also need wider doors as well as its a real pain to get luggage around those narrow doors
I agree and the Texas Eagle is another poster child. At many stations it stops twice once for coach passengers and once for sleeping car passengers. Absolutely silly. The Conductor then laments on the PA that some stations are due to get longer platforms so that the train only has to stop once.......wwwwwhhhhhhaaaattttt?????? C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
The answer is yes train travel times can be improved, my guess is the Texas Eagle alone could pick up close to an hour in lost time along it's Chicago to San Antonio route.
Also, I would argue that Amtrak needs to bring back more of the former flag stops as well. Tired of seeing the train stop and nobody gets on or off.........what a complete waste of fuel. If passenger counts are that low at a particular station. Put in a flag stop or cancel the stop altogether and make them drive to another station with a higher count.
Use the German approach, 2 minute stops at intermediate stations for Passenger Trains, you can't get on board in that time frame you should be left standing on the platform as the train pulls away.
The last time we boarded at Jackson, Mississippi, a lift was used--and the process took much longer than the process of putting the ramp (carried in the car) in place and then pushing my wife up in her chair.
DeggestyEven the low-level entrances of the superliner cars require the use of a stepstool at many, if not all, stations.
That suggests to me that a lift would be needed for a person who uses a wheel chair. Other passengers would board, the lift would be moved up to the train and set up, the person in the wheel chair would get on it, it would be raised and the person would roll into the train. That in itself would take a few minutes.
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