On long distance trains outside of the NE Corridor it can take as long as 20 min to load a train. In Eleria OH the train makes two platform stops one for coach and the other for sleepers. Its a hurry up and wait on the Lake Shore and Capital Limited. If we want to speed up train service you need to open all the doors and have high leval platforms and let the passengers seat themselves commuter style. You also need wider doors as well as its a real pain to get luggage around those narrow doors
Good idea on all trains, including NEC. Compare Amtrak's dwell times with commuter trains boarding many more passengers at a stop. Or compare with intercity trains in Europe.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
While the suggestion sounds good in the NEC, where the only carry-on luggage is usually a briefcase and high-level platforms already exist, it gets a bit difficult on the long-distance routes. High-level platforms are out since the Superliners have low-level doors like a gallery coach. Wide doors would require a complete re-equipping of the passenger fleet. Passengers on the long-distance routes also don't tend to travel light and checked baggage is not always available. Longer platforms might be feasible and could eliminate a lot of double stops.
Yes, dwell times are a speed and schedule factor for all passenger trains. And the double stops at stations is actually a result of success...long trains separating coach and sleeper cars, more people riding; but old short platforms and operations getting in the way. One solution: more trains...shorter trains, more often, less dwell time. Works in transit and can be transposed to work in passenger train operations where "service" is the game, not just running trains.
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The entraining and detraining processes for the Amtrak trains that serve Texas take a very small bit out of the scheduled running times. The biggest factor for the Texas Eagle's end point schedules is the padding that is built into the schedule. On many occasions Number 21 arrives in San Antonio as much as an hour ahead of schedule. I have seen it leave Temple two hours late and arrive on time or nearly on time into San Antonio.
Double stops are required on occasion for the Eagle and Sunset Limited in Texas, but it does not happen frequently if my observations are an accurate reflection of operating conditions. I never miss an opportunity to watch Amtrak's trains when I am able to do so.
A major impediment to quicker entraining for the Texas trains, which probably is true in other locations, is the TSA requirement that all passengers show their tickets and id to the conductor, as well as the car attendant, before they get on the train. Or at least I think it is a TSA requirement.
When I was a kid in Altoona, we jumped on the train as soon as it was ready for boarding. The conductor or trainman lifted our tickets after the train was under way. On one occasion, as I remember it, one of the trains that I was taking to New York made an unscheduled stop in Tyrone to detrain a person who had entrained in Altoona and did not have a ticket or money to buy one. I was told this by the conductor, who happened to be my neighbor.
One of the neat things about growing up in Altoona was that I or my family knew most of the engine crews and passenger train conductors and trainmen.
For westernn routes ( any superliner route ) high level platforms will not work since the superliners are made for low level boarding. On those routes where the Amfleet / Viewliners are used a high level platform could be used except -----
High level platforms interfeer with the clearance guages of the freight RRs especially high wide loads. Each station with high level platforms would require either ---
1. A gaunlet track to clear the platform which requires plaatform set back, a swithch and signals at each end with the addition of protection to prevent misrouting of freights onto the platform Probably give a restricting signal to station platform ?
2. A separate platform track off set from the main line. Again signals at each end of platform track for both platform track and main line and 2 sets of switches. Estimated cost anyone ? possibility $1.5M ? Then the building of long enough platforms and relocating station in some cases + on double track either cross overs to access far main track or an PED overpass to other station track . Estimated low ball cost $10 - 20 M ? per station.
3. # 1 or # 2 is not a good use of finite resources.
4. Where passenger loads call for longer platforms that is the first option to prevent the double stops. Then adopt the European system of placing locating signs to direct passengers to proper boarding locations. This does have some drawbacks.
a. Unmaned stations cannot adapt to locating soaches and sleepers at different ends of train for whatever reason. Sometimes turn times prevent a consistent location of of the cars. This would require more doors open and car attendants verifying that person is a passenger ?They might need smart phone / ticket readers as well ?
b. Different number of revenue cars can affect the placement of baggage cars which can be the major delay at stations.
5. At the bigger stations these location signs can direct persons before entering the platform and on the platform as well. Use of ticketless smart phones or tickets may allow passengers to scan at these displays to direct passengers to proper loading area.
Smaller station displays can be passive.
This could work well on the NEC which should receive them first as all platforms except Wilmington can load without a second stop.
Note:: on Superliner routes making a platform that passenger walked straight on to car has the same clearance problems as the above single level trains.
One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling.
A McIntosh One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling.
A train with low level entry cars pulls up to a low level platform. How is a passenger who uses a wheel char to board? Is a bridge plate used? Or is a lift used?
I am reminded of how passengers were loaded on the Century at one upstate station which was not shown as a stop (in an issue of Trains, in the fifties). Several railroad employees took part in the process, as many as necessary to throw the passenger's baggage on board and two to throw the passenger onto the train. Nothing was said about how detraining was accomplished. Throw Mama onto the train.
Even the low-level entrances of the superliner cars require the use of a stepstool at many, if not all, stations.
Johnny
DeggestyEven the low-level entrances of the superliner cars require the use of a stepstool at many, if not all, stations.
Johnny,
That suggests to me that a lift would be needed for a person who uses a wheel chair. Other passengers would board, the lift would be moved up to the train and set up, the person in the wheel chair would get on it, it would be raised and the person would roll into the train. That in itself would take a few minutes.
John
The last time we boarded at Jackson, Mississippi, a lift was used--and the process took much longer than the process of putting the ramp (carried in the car) in place and then pushing my wife up in her chair.
Bonas On long distance trains outside of the NE Corridor it can take as long as 20 min to load a train. In Eleria OH the train makes two platform stops one for coach and the other for sleepers. Its a hurry up and wait on the Lake Shore and Capital Limited. If we want to speed up train service you need to open all the doors and have high leval platforms and let the passengers seat themselves commuter style. You also need wider doors as well as its a real pain to get luggage around those narrow doors
I agree and the Texas Eagle is another poster child. At many stations it stops twice once for coach passengers and once for sleeping car passengers. Absolutely silly. The Conductor then laments on the PA that some stations are due to get longer platforms so that the train only has to stop once.......wwwwwhhhhhhaaaattttt?????? C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
The answer is yes train travel times can be improved, my guess is the Texas Eagle alone could pick up close to an hour in lost time along it's Chicago to San Antonio route.
Also, I would argue that Amtrak needs to bring back more of the former flag stops as well. Tired of seeing the train stop and nobody gets on or off.........what a complete waste of fuel. If passenger counts are that low at a particular station. Put in a flag stop or cancel the stop altogether and make them drive to another station with a higher count.
Use the German approach, 2 minute stops at intermediate stations for Passenger Trains, you can't get on board in that time frame you should be left standing on the platform as the train pulls away.
Since you have seen for yourself both ramps and lifts used do you have any other observations about the merits of one or the other?
My personal perspective is that in getting on or off of any kind of transportation the first concern is safety. We need to take the time it takes for safety of all passengers.
CMStPnPUse the German approach, 2 minute stops at intermediate stations for Passenger Trains, you can't get on board in that time frame you should be left standing on the platform as the train pulls away.
Of course that method, if in fact it is done in Germany, guarantees that no one with a mobility impairment can ride a train.
John, My impression from watching the lift as it was moved to the door of the sleeper and used to raise my wife as she sat in her chair and then I moved to room H, and from waching the ramp be put into place and I moved her up and on in to our room is that it is much faster to to use to the ramp. The ramp does take two people to set it into place and to store it; someone from the station brought the lift out, operated it, and took it back to the station.
As to moving all passengers to one car (or two cars) for unloading, it may work if no passenger has difficulty in going up and down the stairs and/or in walking from one car to another. However, if a passenger is unable to walk at all, or has difficulty in walking, the is an unworkable plan. I speak from experience with traveling with my wife, even when she could still walk; on the last trip we took and had rooms on the upper level, she had difficulty in passing the stairways since there was a space which had nothing for her to hold to.
CMStPnP C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
C'mon Amtrak get your act together. One station stop regardless of platform length, move the passengers within the train to the single disembarkation point, thats why you have car assistants and conductors.
They already do this on the trains I've been on.
For the western trains, there is a built in "make-up time" between certain stations to allow for getting back on schedule. For example, for the westbound Empire Builder if you study the actual departure time at Red Wing MN and the actual arrival time at the Twin Cities, you will notice the Builder frequently makes up roughly 30 minutes of its schedule between these two points. An instance of this is seen in the Builder of the 5th which left Red Wing 28 minutes late but arrived at MSP 5 minutes early. Should a train arrive early, it must sit until its scheduled departure time.
Although it is not as obvious. I believe the same situation exists for the westbound Zephyr at Omaha and the southbound Eagle at St. Louis. I'm sure if one took the time to look other such situation abound.
Obviously Amtrak does this to allow for dispatching problems encountered by its host railroads. I'd suggest that the time lost to this problem is at least as great as that caused by double stops.
"I am looking for a lot of men who have an infinite capacity to not know what can't be done." - Henry Ford
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
John WR A McIntosh One other factor to consider is assistance that the handicap and elderly passengers require. Another group would be a fairly large family or other group traveling. A train with low level entry cars pulls up to a low level platform. How is a passenger who uses a wheel char to board? Is a bridge plate used? Or is a lift used?
Gainesville GA has a rather long, not-quite-low level platform. The platform is actually below the level of the ties - probably as a result of several iterations of surfacing over the years.
It's long enough to not require two stops, even though sometimes the sleepers are actually past the end of the platform and over the road Xing.
Even with a train step, it's still a mighty long step up to the first tread in the trap. So, all the coach pax have to schlep down the platform and struggle up the one open vestibule. Good (?) thing there is only a handful of passengers boarding or it would take all night.
They recently (in the past couple of years) installed a portable wheelchair lift there. It lives in an outdoor storage box built just for it. I have no idea how it works since it's never been required while I've been there.
I think they could speed things up a bit if they used an "all hands on deck" approach to station stops where more than a handful of people were expected. You have a dozen or more employees on the trains. You should be able to open more than two doors.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndI think they could speed things up a bit if they used an "all hands on deck" approach to station stops where more than a handful of people were expected. You have a dozen or more employees on the trains. You should be able to open more than two doors.
I have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door. Plus full ADA compliance or whatever for the opening. That wouldn't apply to doors that 'need' to be kept firmly closed. Might even be one of those nuisance class-action suits over the years. It certainly can't be that access to the train is being tightly restricted to preclude stowaways or farebeaters! Almost as unlikely that it's a Homeland Security access-control thing.
As to having all hands on the platform at a station stop, I do not think it to be a wise move to use dining car personnel during meal times, nor to require all attendants to be on the platform in the middle of the night--even the car attendants need sleep, and they will arrange to share cars so that one or more will be able to sleep through a stop.
VIA does have sleeping car attendants also working in the diners on the Canadian.
OvermodI have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door.
They act as if this is true. There is a trainman and attendant at the sleeper door and coach door at Gainesville every time.
I'm thinking the "California Cars" are the solution to the problem. They have two wide doors per car and can serve a quasi-low level platform w/o needing a train step. Such a platform would not interfere with freight clearances. The problem is what to do about NEC extension stops that don't have high level platforms. You can always open the traps on an Amfleet car, but there is no analog for "California Cars".
DeggestyAs to having all hands on the platform at a station stop, I do not think it to be a wise move to use dining car personnel during meal times, nor to require all attendants to be on the platform in the middle of the night--even the car attendants need sleep, and they will arrange to share cars so that one or more will be able to sleep through a stop.
Agree, although you could probably spare a dining car steward or two for 5 minutes during a meal.
Also, if they rotated car attendants off the train with the operating crew, you wouldn't have any needing sleep (or taking up revenue space). After all, the person at the Hampton Inn desk when you check in, isn't there when you check out. Why should the train be different (other than that's the way Pullman did it.)
oltmannd OvermodI have a grim suspicion that there is some consent decree or settlement condition somewhere that mandates a full attendant at any open Amtrak door. They act as if this is true. There is a trainman and attendant at the sleeper door and coach door at Gainesville every time. I'm thinking the "California Cars" are the solution to the problem. They have two wide doors per car and can serve a quasi-low level platform w/o needing a train step. Such a platform would not interfere with freight clearances. The problem is what to do about NEC extension stops that don't have high level platforms. You can always open the traps on an Amfleet car, but there is no analog for "California Cars".
The United Aircraft TurboTrain had Alan-Cripe designed entry stairs where you walked down into the train from a high-level platform, stepped up into the train from a conventional platform. Like the Talgo, the TurboTrain had a low floor height.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Refine and redesign the old RPO mail pick-up and discharge systems for passengers.
Station dwell to ZERO - pick-up and discharge on the fly.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I can picture it now, Balt. I'm standing on a platform suspended in the air. Suddenly a couple of padded hooks come out, enclose me and whisk me into the car. They open and I walk to my seat. No fuss, no muss.
The platform is suspended in the air?
Detraining is a bit more troublesome; is the passenger put inside a heavy canvas bag that is well padded, and the carry-on baggage is also put inside such a bag which is thrown from the train after the passenger is thrown off?
BaltACD Refine and redesign the old RPO mail pick-up and discharge systems for passengers. Station dwell to ZERO - pick-up and discharge on the fly.
See July 1965 TRAINS, "Boarding the Century at Utica".
John WR I can picture it now, Balt. I'm standing on a platform suspended in the air. Suddenly a couple of padded hooks come out, enclose me and whisk me into the car. They open and I walk to my seat. No fuss, no muss. John
I'm SURE I covered this a few weeks ago. Early in April, I believe.
Passenger goes in a 'boarding module' which is properly constructed -- sorta like the way the F111 and B-70 cockpits were supposed to be. Can have all the comforts of home -- small snack vending equipment, relief tube, stereo TV with piped-in content... at small marginal cost compared with having to make All Those Station Stops. Long bungee a la those aircraft pick-up systems, and rails and hardpoints that control the path of the module as it goes into the train and then stops.
Deboarding is accomplished using NASA technology developed for Mars exploration. Inflatable sphere with re-entry seat at the center, in damped gimbals. Ball is armored against whatever it may contact ... it just bounces around until all the energy is spent, then signals the station to send the Google-self-driving Quigley van for pickup [In the interest of fair disclosure, I am waiting for the first surplus-property sale of these to buy one cheap...]
Naturally luggage would go in a separate module -- do you think we are barbarians? -- although it would be Kevlar-tethered to the main module to prevent what I like to call the lost-golf-ball scenario.
I had originally thought that deadheading the modules, particularly the entry modules, would pose a problem. But it is actually an advantage! First, a la Keith Laumer, there is now no need for more expensive infrastructure in the cars -- ordinary pulpwood racks or even spine cars can be easily and quickly adapted to rack these modules, and even automatically connect amenities and power. This in turn may allow passengers to be conveniently handled in freight consists without further ado, or allow joint operations using the FEMA stock (with proper grapples on the modules to engage the shackle mounts) Second, the modules can be adapted to fit inexpensive chassis or powered-wheel mounts, allowing conversion to economical BEVs for quick and effective last-mile service without wasting time to find a rental-car outlet and then discover you don't qualify to rent anything from them. "On Amtrak, It's Guaranteed! <r> " Third ... well, there doesn't need to be a third, the details of this bold new, yet modest proposal speak for themselves far more eloquently than my mere words can.
Anyone who wishes to add details and features may contact me, or comment here. But act quickly as I may present this to the FRA and schedule meetings with key Congressmen ASAP.
Nice excursion, but back to 2013 and the original question.
. Why can't Amtrak reduce times at stops? On DB, the stopping times are typically 2-4 minutes to unload and load many passengers, often 50+ at a given station. And it is done smoothly, politely, safely, with few conductors, and the passengers often have several bags. And all the doors open and close, with the infrequent exception of some combined trains whose length exceeds that of the platform.. On the platform, there is a diagram showing where each car on your train will be when it stops so that you can stand in the correct location if you have a reserved seat. This isn't hi-tech, just common sense solutions that could be implemented quickly in our emerging corridors.
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